Does scripture from the bible support the LDS church?

Terrywoodenpic said:

I have not disputed that the tetragrammaton was used in written form, however it was never spoken nor was it known how to speak it in christian times.

We have no reason to suppose that Jesus a Jew, would not have respected the religious norms of the time. What he might have known is not in question.

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They did use Gods name.The Jews who did not were the superstitious.Nowhere in the holy scriptures does it say that Gods name is to sacred to speak.

"Jesus declared in prayer to his Father: “I have made your name known . . . and will make it known.” (John 17:26) Jesus would undoubtedly have pronounced God’s name on numerous occasions when he read, quoted, or explained portions of the Hebrew Scriptures containing that important name. Jesus would thus have used God’s name just as freely as all the prophets did before him. If any Jews were already avoiding the use of God’s name during the time of Jesus’ ministry, Jesus would certainly not have followed their tradition. He strongly criticized the religious leaders when he said to them: “You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.”—Matthew 15:6."

The Challenge of Knowing God by Name — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

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Revelation was phenomenon central to authentic religion in the early Christian movement
The biblical texts gives multiple examples of individuals who witness to their lives being guided by revelations whether by angelic messenger or by dream or by another manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Some examples might include

Joseph and Mary who were being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, …. Matthew 2:12; “… the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee…” Matthew 2:13; “… an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel... Matthew 2:19-20; “…being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: Matthew 2:22;

Mary : Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin Luke 1:26-28;

Zaccharias : ”… Zacharias,… there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord. Luke 5:11; “…Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his
servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: Luke 1:67-70

Elisabeth “…was filled with the Holy Ghost: Luke 1:41;

Shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them…”. Luke 2:8-10; 13-14;

Rabbi Simeon , … waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Luke 2:25-26;

Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel… Luke 2:36-37;

And to the Marys at the tomb : “… two men stood by them in shining garments:. Luke 24:4-7; 12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. John 20:12

John told his disciples regarding jesus , that Jesus was “he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.” John 1:33;
11

Stephen : “… being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,. Acts 7:55-56;

Phillip : And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south …Acts 8:26; Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. Acts 8:29;

The disciple Ananias : “…to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul….” When Ananias balks, “…the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me…” Acts 9:10-16

The Centurion Cornelius : ; “… a centurion … saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius…”. Acts 10:1-8; And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing…” Acts 10:9-34

Peter, the apostle : “…went up upon the housetop to pray … he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened…” Acts 10:9-34; “… the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side…” Acts 12:7-9;
“…on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. …”Acts 10:44-48; “…when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 18:24-28 & Acts 19:1-6;

The Apostles were : “….sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia…” Acts 13:1-4

Paul, not only has his famous mid-day vision but also : “…And a vision appeared to Paul in the night…” Acts 16:9- 9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, …” . Acts 18:9-10; “…. the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. Acts 20:22-23

Phillips daughters : “…had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. Acts 21:8-9

It is not just these specific individuals have revelation, but the principle of seeking and revelation as a guidance in one’s life continued in the early Christian movement. For example :

The apostolic Father Bishop Ignatius tells us that a Bishop is “…attuned to the commandments as a harp to it’s strings” Ig Phil 1:2; and teaches Christians to pray and “ Ask for greater understanding than you have.” Ign Poly 1:3. He is speaking of revelation, saying :”… ask, in order that the unseen things may be revealed to you, that you may be lacking in nothing and abound in every spiritual gift.” Ig Poly 2:2;

The early 4-5th Century New Testament Codex Sinaiticus still contained the Book of Hermas and taught that “It is not because you are more worthy than all others to have it revealed to you, for others are before you and are better than you, to whom these visions ought to have been revealed. But it has been revealed to you in order that the name of God might be glorified, and it will be revealed for the sake of the double-minded, who question in their hearts whether these things are so or not. Hermas 12:3.

The point is that it is not merely “worthiness” or “pious behaviors that cause all revelations, but there are other reasons as well. If the principle is true that asking for understanding from God is one reason that individuals receive revelation, then what happens when individuals such as yourself, no longer have faith to receive revelation, being taught to be satisfied with reading about the revelations of others?

Hermas is taught : “… why don’t you ask for understanding from the Lord, and receive it from him?” Hermas 57:4 “… Do not attempt, as though you were intelligent, to understand things you cannot comprehend, but ask the Lord that you may receive the intelligence to understand them.” Hermas 79:6. “….I give understanding to all who repent. Hermas 30:2.

This concept of being guided by the spirit is still alive in the earliest periods of the original Christian movement : “….God bids me utter each thing.... “Sibylline Oracles second book vs 5 and 25-32 and the early Christian converts (Catechumens) are taught : “… Let us all earnestly entreat God on behalf of the
catechumens: v4 that he may reveal to them the gospel of his Christ, 5 illume them, and give them understanding, educate them in the knowledge of god ,,,” in the early Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers AposCon .5-8, Even the earliest Abrahamic youth histories of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims taught that

Abraham as a pagan youth understood to rely on revelation, saying that there must be a God : “….who has given light to the moon and the stars with it, who had dried the earth in the midst of the many waters, who set you yourself among the things and who has sought me out in the perplexity of my thoughts? If [only] God will reveal himself by himself to us…” The Apocalypse of Abraham 7:10-12;

The diary of Vibia Perpetua, a pagan convert to Christianity realized that God would answer prayers. After their arrest the group turns to Perpetua to ask God in her prayers if they were to be released or to be martyred : ch IV “Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who knew myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’ The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity


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The Lord then tells Perpetua that they will ultimately be martyred. Importantly, the Christians of this time approx. 200 a.d. were still being taught to pray for and receive answers though some faithlessness on this point is creeping into theology. Thus, in the prologue (written by another and not by Perpetua) the author points out that modern revelations (of his time) should not be dismissed as having less value or honor, but perhaps more, since it indicates God is still pouring out his spirit upon those who have faith to receive the spirit.

He says : “…the more recent things should rather be deemed the greater, as being “later than the last.” This follows from the preeminence of grace promised at the last lap of the world’s race. For “In the last days, saith the Lord, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh, and their sons and their daughters shall prophesy: and on my servants and on my handmaidens will I pour forth of my Spirit: and their young men shall see visions, and their old men shall dream dreams.” And so we who recognize and hold in honor not new prophecies only but new visions as alike promised, and count all the rest of the powers of the Holy Spirit as intended for the equipment of the Church, to which the same spirit was sent bestowing all gifts upon all as the Lord dealt to each man, we cannot but set these out and make them famous by recital to the glory of God. So shall no weak or despairing faith suppose that supernatural grace, in excellency of martyrdoms or revelations, was found among the ancients only; for God ever works what he has promised, to unbelievers a witness, to believers a blessing. The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity;


The Jewish Dead Sea Scrolls also witness to this principle of believers receiving guidance by revelation through God’s Holy Spirit. Not only is it the prophet Abraham who is instructed in a dream how to handle the situation going in to Egypt “…I, Abraham, had a dream the night of my entry into the land of Egypt….” In 1Qap Col 20:13-22 , Adam is described as being given the spirit of God . The witness from Jewish Haggadah also follows this theme of the spirit having been given to guide Adam, for “…without the gift of the holy spirit, Adam could not have found names for all; he was in very truth a prophet, and his wisdom a prophetic quality. The Haggadah (The Ideal Man). In such a context the dead sea scrolls also testify that God : “...fashioned [Adam], our [f]ather, in the image of [Your] glory; You breathed [the breath of life] into his nostrils, [and filled him] with understanding and knowledge. 4Q504 - 506 Frag. 8:3. The ancient writer thanks God since : “… by your holy spirit you have delighted me; even until this day..” 1QH + 4Q428 Frag 7) Col. 17:31-32.

This ancient principle is not simply that God guides those of faith with his spirit to some extent, but that they will not be able to maintain a connection to accurate religion or teach accurate religion without having the spirit : “… How can I understand, unless You have formed it for me? What can I speak, unless You have opened my mouth? And how can I reply, unless You have given me insight?” 1QH + 4Q428 Frag. 7 Col. 18

Though the 1Q and 4Q texts both say : “… To the children of your truth you have given insight {...] for ever. And according to their knowledge one is honored above another. 1QH + 4Q428 Frag. 7 Col 18:24-29 they clarify that : “…Like purifying waters, He shall sprinkle each with a spirit of truth, effectual against all the abominations of lying and sullying by an unclean spirit. Thereby He shall give the upright insight into the knowledge of the Most High and the wisdom of the angels, making wise those following the perfect way…” 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 4 vs 15-26 Though the “upright” (i.e. the repenters) are given greater manifestations of the spirit, still, the early tradition was that God would attempt to give all some degree of guidance, to the extent they were prepared and able to receive it and obey it. Thus it was said : “…. The Holy spirit shepherd everyone and rules all the powers, the “tame” ones and the “wild” ones, as well as those who are unique.” The gospel of Phillip

Though all have the priviledge of guidance, those who pursue sacred knowledge have always been allowed to have moral knowledge given to them to the degree they are prepared for it and ready to obey it. : “... He created insight for his children by much wisdom He uncovered our ears that we may hear [...] He created insight for all those who pursue true knowledge and [...] all wisdom is from eternity, it may not be changed [...] 4Q299 Frag. 8 Still, this “insight and knowledge” did not come mainly from books, but inside this early context, the most important and profound guidance has always come from the spirit. “I, the instructor, have known you, O my God, by the spirit which you gave me, and I have listened faithfully to your wondrous council by your holy spirit. You have opened within me knowledge in the mystery of Your insight, and a spring of [Your] strength...” Frags. 10, 24, 42 + 4Q427 Frag. 3 Col. 20:11-13

The LDS, and other Christian movements, agree with these earliest traditions regarding the importance of the role of being born again and obtaining Godly knowledge and guidance and understanding through the medium of the spirit of God. Your claim that you do not have revelation given to you and your admission that you do not have faith that you ever will have revelation as part of your relationship to God has more to do with your lack of faith in the principle rather than lack of ability on your part or lack of willingness on God’s part in offering such communication to you.

I am busy and so will have to get to the other points later.


Pegg : Thank you so much for explaining your personal beliefs to me that I do not claim to understand. I honestly believe that you are as able an anyone to receive revelation from God and add those experiences to your relationship with God if you so desire and can put yourself into the position of receiving them. I am grateful for your honest discussions and your kind manner in our disagreement. I was very impressed to see a Jehovah’s Witness Family canvassing our neighborhood with their little son. I stopped to say hello and the parents handed the boy a pamphlet to give to me. He seemed so happy to do so. I squatted to look him in the face and asked him if what he gave me was important. In the honest earnestness that only comes from a child, he told me it was. So I solemnly promised him I would read it and told him with a pleased smile, that I was so very grateful for what he was doing. I honestly was grateful for their goodness and their commitment to their beliefs, and kept my promise to him. I am still very grateful to both influence and to be influenced by such wonderful people as this little family was. It was a great experience for all of us. Thank you.

To the LDS : I have been profoundly grateful for the role of revelation and its attendant guidance in my life and the things I have been taught through the manifestations of the spirit of God. I hope you appreciate what is it like for someone like Pegg and myself (when in a prior mindset similar to Peggs) where I also did not have the concept of what it would be like to have the sort of intimate relationship with God such that he would speak to me and guide me through his spirit. I am grateful for what I have learned from the LDS and from exposure to other religions that contain true principles and contribute to our spiritual journeys in positive ways.

Clear
ειτζακειω

Clear said:

I am saying more than that. If the early Judeo-Christian worldviews are correct, then ALL mentally competent individuals in the world have the privilege of speaking to God and having God answer their prayers and learning to listen to and hear and make sense of those answers and being led from one level of truth and relationship to a greater level of truth and closer relationship to God. If this is true, then All Jehovahs Witnesses; All catholics; All protestants; all LDS; all agnostics; all mentally competent individuals in the world have the privilege of communication with God. That is, they may learn to speak with God and come to expect that God can and will answer their honest prayers. I believe that you probably have had some experiences when you were influenced by the spirit but simply did not recognize the experience for what it was. If a Christian movement has the Holy Spirit as part of its authentic experience, then it will include the experience of revelation from that same spirit.

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Hi Clear, could you please define what you mean by 'revelation' because i think we might be on two different wavelengths,

Clear said:

...
Hermas is taught : “… why don’t you ask for understanding from the Lord, and receive it from him?” Hermas 57:4 “… Do not attempt, as though you were intelligent, to understand things you cannot comprehend, but ask the Lord that you may receive the intelligence to understand them.” Hermas 79:6. “….I give understanding to all who repent. Hermas 30:2.

This concept of being guided by the spirit is still alive in the earliest periods of the original Christian movement : “….God bids me utter each thing.... “Sibylline Oracles second book vs 5 and 25-32 and the early Christian converts (Catechumens) are taught : “… Let us all earnestly entreat God on behalf of the
catechumens: v4 that he may reveal to them the gospel of his Christ, 5 illume them, and give them understanding, educate them in the knowledge of god ,,,” in the early Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers AposCon .5-8, Even the earliest Abrahamic youth histories of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims taught that

Abraham as a pagan youth understood to rely on revelation, saying that there must be a God : “….who has given light to the moon and the stars with it, who had dried the earth in the midst of the many waters, who set you yourself among the things and who has sought me out in the perplexity of my thoughts? If [only] God will reveal himself by himself to us…” The Apocalypse of Abraham 7:10-12;

The diary of Vibia Perpetua, a pagan convert to Christianity realized that God would answer prayers. After their arrest the group turns to Perpetua to ask God in her prayers if they were to be released or to be martyred : ch IV “Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who knew myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’ The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity
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Sure, God has revealed things verbally, or by vision to selected individuals. But there were millions of Isrealites who never had such direct experiences from God via visions or angels or dreams etc.

God always spoke to individuals when there was a direct need to inform them of his purpose or of his will for them.... but that is not the norm. We can speak to God every minute of every day... we do this through prayer, and yes sometimes we see our prayers get answered in various ways. But never does God directly speak to us unless we are reading his Word the Bible.

Now, with regard to all the extra biblical writings you've used to support your position, Do you actually believe in the early apostasy from true teaching? If you do, then anything not written in the first century by the Apostles or approved by them should really be considered to be dubious and, imo, not used as the basis for truth because there were so many false teachers distorting was is true and what is not.

So im sorry, but have you got biblical scriptures that you could replace them with? You know us well enough by now to know we are Sola Scripture

Hi Clear
I like your style......
It is so different to my own, Your posts though long are very readable and present us with references we may never have found before.
Unlike Pegg I am not restricted by my church as to what I read and believe. I recognise that "the Bibles" in their entirety have contained far more than any single "Authorised bible today. I also recognise that the selection of the contents was influenced by both "Church politics" as well as "Civil politics" as much as by spiritual guidance.
This almost by definition, resulted in a vast array of inspired scripture not making it between those hallowed covers. This also limits what we consider to be modern scripture today.

You argument in the most recent few posts centers on the fact that we can, and do communicate with God, and have done so since the earliest of times. That this communication can be personal. The word of God can also be directed though figures of authority like a prophet or spiritual leader.

I am of the opinion and belief that God perpetually communicates with every one of us, christian or not, through the Holy spirit, who guides comforts and leads us all on our spiritual paths. However God has also ensured that we have free will, and freedom of choice to accept that guidance or not, and to act on it as we will.

The holy Spirit is not something we can avoid or hide from. Like God, the Holy Spirit is everywhere and his love is universal.

Angels are a part of Christianity that seems to be hidden in the modern churches. Perhaps Just as modern churches seem to deny the continuing revelation to us and the prophets.

They equally deny the continuing presence of Angels. So much so, that it is now a difficult subject to even speak about. Who has ever seen an Angel or messenger of God? Would we even know?
I leave that question unanswered.

Communication with God has never been one way... Prayer is not one way.
We may not find it easy to put into words the answers or guidance we receive. But the presence of God is very real, and we feel the comfort and know in our hearts that he leads us.

Sapiens said:

Oh, come on. Is that your best shot? Much easier whine to the peanut gallery and to call me names than to address the issues, eh?

I guess we've seen the sum total of your discussion and debating skills?

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If you really want people to address your ideas and engage you seriously you should change your tone. It's a rare kind of person who will engage in conversation with someone who is openly hostile and condescending. If your intent is to confirm to yourself your infinitely superior intellect and rock-solid logical position, good job, well done. If you actually care about influencing people, try mixing in a little love and humility. Telling someone their ideas are fundamentally unsound is delicate business. No matter what group we are talking about or how far-fetched their beliefs if they sense scorn or mockery, they will probably shut down to what you are saying.

Do you have an opinion on the subjects and issues I raised or would you rather just trash me just like the person that I was responding to in the quote you posted? Seems to me I raised real issues that did not address anyone here personally, and the net result is that two of you are off to the races on your ad hominem hobby horses

Terrywoodenpic said:

Hi Clear
I like your style......
It is so different to my own, Your posts though long are very readable and present us with references we may never have found before.
Unlike Pegg I am not restricted by my church as to what I read and believe. I recognise that "the Bibles" in their entirety have contained far more than any single "Authorised bible today. I also recognise that the selection of the contents was influenced by both "Church politics" as well as "Civil politics" as much as by spiritual guidance.
This almost by definition, resulted in a vast array of inspired scripture not making it between those hallowed covers. This also limits what we consider to be modern scripture today.

You argument in the most recent few posts centers on the fact that we can, and do communicate with God, and have done so since the earliest of times. That this communication can be personal. The word of God can also be directed though figures of authority like a prophet or spiritual leader.

I am of the opinion and belief that God perpetually communicates with every one of us, christian or not, through the Holy spirit, who guides comforts and leads us all on our spiritual paths. However God has also ensured that we have free will, and freedom of choice to accept that guidance or not, and to act on it as we will.

The holy Spirit is not something we can avoid or hide from. Like God, the Holy Spirit is everywhere and his love is universal.

Angels are a part of Christianity that seems to be hidden in the modern churches. Perhaps Just as modern churches seem to deny the continuing revelation to us and the prophets.

They equally deny the continuing presence of Angels. So much so, that it is now a difficult subject to even speak about. Who has ever seen an Angel or messenger of God? Would we even know?
I leave that question unanswered.

Communication with God has never been one way... Prayer is not one way.
We may not find it easy to put into words the answers or guidance we receive. But the presence of God is very real, and we feel the comfort and know in our hearts that he leads us.

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Great post! How uplifting. I, for one, believe very sincerely in the ministration of angels. Though I have never physically seen one, I have felt their influence, aid, and protection many times.

Terry, as a fellow Christian brother, thank you for your wonderful example. It's great seeing someone so in tune the Spirit of God. God truly is not a respector of persons and he will work on all of us as we make room for him in our hearts.

Pegg said:

Hi Clear, could you please define what you mean by 'revelation' because i think we might be on two different wavelengths,

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I can't speak for Clear, but in my view, the LDS definition of "revelation" is broader than in other Christian faiths,

Moses received a great "revelation" in regard to the burning bush, the ten commandments, etc. John the Revelator had a fantastic vision as recorded in Revelation.

I taught a lesson in church a couple of weeks ago. As I was preparing the lesson, I felt impressed that I should relate a specific personal experience to drive home the topic. I did so and the lesson was well received, I believe that God prompted me to give that personal example. It was certainly not a Moses or John the Revelator type experience. Nevertheless, God revealed his will to me by his Spirit. He communicated with me. He revealed something to me. That makes it a "revelation". I didn't hear a voice or see a vision. I simply felt what the Bible describes as a "still small voice", an impression, which I recognized and believe to be from God.

Sapiens said:

Do you have an opinion on the subjects and issues I raised or would you rather just trash me just like the person that I was responding to in the quote you posted? Seems to me I raised real issues that did not address anyone here personally, and the net result is that two of you are off to the races on your ad hominem hobby horses

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I do. I don't really want to debate it much because I don't think I'm very well qualified.

But since you ask:
Papyrus: It has been shown that the writings on the manuscript bear no resemblance to the Book of Abraham. I accept this. What conclusions people draw from this is up to them. I believe that the Book of Abraham is a true record revealed through the power of God.

DNA: Not really sure what to make of it with regard to the LDS beliefs about the Lamanites and the Native Americans. There could be some simple explanations such as "founder affect" which could allow the LDS to retain their view of how things happened. IMO it's more likely the LDS view is inaccurate and incomplete. This seems to be the trend with religion/science. For example the belief of a global flood or that God literally created the earth in 6 days.

DavyCrocket2003 said:

Papyrus: It has been shown that the writings on the manuscript bear no resemblance to the Book of Abraham. I accept this. What conclusions people draw from this is up to them. I believe that the Book of Abraham is a true record revealed through the power of God.

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1. Yes it has been shown that the writings on the manuscript bear no resemblance to the Book of Abraham.
2. The Book of Abraham was produced by Joseph Smith. He claimed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#cite_note-autogenerated8-1that it was based on Egyptian papyri and that the book was "a translation of some ancient writings of by Abraham written while he was in Egypt.
3. You believe that the Book of Abraham is a true record revealed through the power of God.

Can you explain (3) in light of (1) and (2) please?

DavyCrocket2003 said:

DNA: Not really sure what to make of it with regard to the LDS beliefs about the Lamanites and the Native Americans. There could be some simple explanations such as "founder affect" which could allow the LDS to retain their view of how things happened. IMO it's more likely the LDS view is inaccurate and incomplete. This seems to be the trend with religion/science. For example the belief of a global flood or that God literally created the earth in 6 days.

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So you agree the odds are that the stories of the Lamanites and the Native Americans are so much hogwash?

Sapiens said:

1. Yes it has been shown that the writings on the manuscript bear no resemblance to the Book of Abraham.
2. The Book of Abraham was produced by Joseph Smith. He claimed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#cite_note-autogenerated8-1that it was based on Egyptian papyri and that the book was "a translation of some ancient writings of by Abraham written while he was in Egypt.
3. You believe that the Book of Abraham is a true record revealed through the power of God.

Can you explain (3) in light of (1) and (2) please?

So you agree the odds are that the stories of the Lamanites and the Native Americans are so much hogwash?

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I honestly can't. And I've considered it a bit. One possibility is that (3) is incorrect. I believe (3) but I'm not 100% convinced. I believe that God revealed the Book of Abraham through Joseph Smith. It could have been that he erroneously thought he was translating the manuscript. Another possibility is that he knew it wasn't a translation and his explanation was misleading. It's an issue I definitely wonder about and don't have a good answer for.

As to your second issue, I definitely wouldn't say they are complete hogwash. I literally believe the Book of Mormon. Which means I believe Israelites came to the Americas and established nations here. It means that I believe there were prophets of those nations that saw our day and wrote to us. I believe they saw those they thought of as "their people" being destroyed by the incoming white nations.

Edit: I think the picture of a single or majority Israelite ancestry is wrong.

Scott C. said:

I can't speak for Clear, but in my view, the LDS definition of "revelation" is broader than in other Christian faiths,

Moses received a great "revelation" in regard to the burning bush, the ten commandments, etc. John the Revelator had a fantastic vision as recorded in Revelation.

I taught a lesson in church a couple of weeks ago. As I was preparing the lesson, I felt impressed that I should relate a specific personal experience to drive home the topic. I did so and the lesson was well received, I believe that God prompted me to give that personal example. It was certainly not a Moses or John the Revelator type experience. Nevertheless, God revealed his will to me by his Spirit. He communicated with me. He revealed something to me. That makes it a "revelation". I didn't hear a voice or see a vision. I simply felt what the Bible describes as a "still small voice", an impression, which I recognized and believe to be from God.

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thankyou for the clarification Scott. I was beginning to think Clear was speaking of hearing audible voices or seeing visions or angles etc.

I think of Revelation as something more profound then a 'feeling' we may. Sometimes we read a passage in the bible and if we meditate on it, we may feel motivated by it, we may even feel disciplined by it because our conscience is designed to distinguish between our right actions and our wrong actions. When we've had our conscience trained in a certain way, we may have very strong urges to do this or that because our trained conscience is doing the job it was designed to do. It was designed to 'hear' the voice of God and follow its direction.

When we allow ourselves to be guided by our trained conscience, we do hear Gods voice... that is, we hear him prompting us to do good and I guess we could call it 'revelation' in that context.

But obviously, in order to hear it we must first have some knowledge for our conscience to work with and thats why its so important to learn from God through reliable sources such as his word the bible because we will inevitably follow whichever voice we are learning from.... and if its not Gods, it will be someone else's.

[FONT=&quot]Originally Posted by Clear, #89 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I think that the Jehovah’s witness emphasis on adopting an early written symbol for God, (the tetragrammon) as the actual given “name” of the God of the Old testament and elevating this created doctrine to pre-eminence over other profoundly important doctrines is a phenomenon of apostasy.

I believe the Jehovah’s Witnesses mean well in the creation of this doctrine, partly as Pegg describes, as a substitution for the feeling of an intimate relationship with, they do not have. For example, Pegg describes knowing the name of God as part of an “intimate” relationship with God.

For example, Pegg says : “ thats the difference with having an intimate relationship with a person and only knowing about them from a distance.... you can't be on a first name basis with someone you dont rightly know. # 42 and she uses revelation as the example of an intimate relationship with God, saying : “ The prophets of God had a personal and intimate relationship with God and they did not fear using his name. “

However, the glaring inconsistency is that she follows her rule of belief in a “name”, yet she admits she doesn’t have an intimate relationship with God and never has and doesn’t believe she will have such a relationship as all LDS are able to experience.

For example, she admits that she’s her never had a single communication (revelation) from the God she thinks she knows the name of. When one asks about her intimate relationship, she admits : "I dont receive revelation, never have and most likely never will....i have never been spoken to by Jehovah... at least not in person"

The situation is like claiming one has an “intimate” relationship with Bill Gates (after all, “I know his name&#8221, but then the claimant reveals they’ve never actually met Gates, never had a single conversation with him, and he’s never spoken a single word to them personally, and never will speak with and hear from the person they claimed to have an “intimate relationship” with. Instead, they admit, they have read a book written about bill Gates and assume THAT relationship qualifies as an “intimate” relationship.

The problem with concentrating this single doctrine as the hallmark of religion is missing all of the other principles which actually do produce an authentic “intimate” relationship with God.

For example, Faith in God, repentance and obedience to God’s basic requests; receiving the holy spirit and developing faith and experiences and confidence in God and in principles whereby one can have a communicative relationship with God. The concentration on a single, perhaps important doctrine at the expense of all others is like concentrating on tapping a single key on a piano keyboard to make music and never using the many other keys that are available to create music.

I believe that such an elevation of a single obscure doctrine to preeminence and maintaining it as one’s focal point while neglecting other profoundly important doctrines and practices is one process of apostasy to the extent that authentic and important doctrines and practices are neglected.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

Pegg asked : “ Hi Clear, could you please define what you mean by 'revelation' because i think we might be on two different wavelengths, “

Hi Pegg I just arrived home from traveling last night and am leaving this morning again. I hope to have internet in approximately 12 hours when I arrive at my new destination and will give you a more complete reply. I apologize for the slow response. Usually I am out of town only three days weekly but this time my wife and I are going to another city to visit family.

I’ve thought about the nature of this question coming from someone who feels they have never had revelation nor have faith in God to give them personal revelation. It is, in this specific respect, similar to the atheistic position, someone who is “blind to revelation”. I’ve considered how the experience of having personal revelation could be best explained and demonstrated to someone who is “revelatory blind”.

Since you have read the biblical text, I do not think a mere definition is enough since, having read the bible, I think you understand the base concept of God, revealing facts and understanding and principles of his plan to individuals, but simply have not applied this principle to all other individuals in a similar way. The 10 hour trip will give me a chance to put together some thoughts and examples that might help you to understand the principle and its application to normal Christians and others whom God wishes to shepherd from a lower level of truth to greater and higher levels of truth and understanding of him and his plan for them. I’ll get back to you in a few hours.


I was about to press "post", and when the computer balked at this, I then noted Scotts comment and your reply.

I actually AM speaking of revelation in any form God wishes to give it. Revelations, dreams, waking visions, voices, intelligence or understanding being "poured into" the person God wishes to enlighten, setting up external circumstances to ensure a certain thing will happen. In authentic religion, God communicates to individuals. That communication is one of the hallmarks of authentic religion (as opposed to a simple study of religion such as theology, which any athiest can do as well as a theist). Still, after making my this clarification, I will have to get back with you in about 12 hours or so.


Hi TerryWoodenPic : Thank you for the kind words. I think your common-sensical point that the prayer is a communication that was never designed to be “one way” is profound in it’s import. Often prayers can be answered in ways that one can recognize, and information and intelligence and understanding and enlightenment as well, can be passed from the spirit, directly to one’s heart and mind rather than simply by reading about an answer given to another person long ago.


I also agree with DavyCrocket2003, that your posts have been spiritually insightful, and thus, influential. I like the common-sense in your points.


DavyCrocket2003 : I think you should look at some of Sapiens premises carefully before agreeing with him. LOOK at his premise #2. Is he correct on this premise upon which he bases his conclusion? If this is incorrect, has he even made a historically relevant statement?


Clear

Pegg said:

thankyou for the clarification Scott. I was beginning to think Clear was speaking of hearing audible voices or seeing visions or angles etc.

Click to expand...

I should add, that I do believe that more "dramatic" revelation can and does occur to individuals. I believe, for example, that an angel from God could appear to me and give me directions to do something, or to comfort me, or to confirm a truth. This has never happened to me, but I believe the first hand accounts I have from some people who are close to me. A tenant of the LDS faith is that such revelation can and does happen at the individual level.

[FONT=&quot]1) REVELATION AS EVIDENCE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The surest evidence of the existence of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
We’ve all observed the endless philosophical, “cosmological”; “traditional”, “logical” and “scientific” data discussed between theists and agnostics and, though they are the most popular data types to use (since logician-philosopher-scientists seem to want to “try” to “analyze” and "debate"&#8230. Still I do not think that religion is supposed to be provable by such means and more importantly I do not believe these are the most powerful types of evidence for Christians to build and sustain a belief in God's existence.

I believe the strongest and most powerful, most compelling and profound evidence upon which one may base increasing faith in God's existence is direct communication with God; personal revelation from God to an individual.

For example; [FONT=&quot]Anciently, c[/FONT]hristianity had the promise of the Holy Ghost, given to individuals who enter into the proper spiritual process of change which results in obtaining the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is individualized. It is trustworthy. Those who have revelation seem to possess the strongest testimony of the truth of religious principles, including the existence of God.

However, this “gift” seems to be as impervious to objective observation by those who do not possess it as any other “second hand” data. It brings objective experiences to those who have it, but then, how does that person do more than “describe” to another person; regarding their personal revelations, or personal communications from God? To the outsider, (who is inexperienced in such things himself), those things may seem like ouigi boards or crystal balls at the county fair. It is difficult for me, (as a religionist) to condemn the agnostic for his skepticism that any such communication from God is taking place, and for his unwillingness to experiment with faith himself (though I wish he would).

The difficulty on a basic level is that miracles and personal communication from God only happen once certain keys are turned. With rare exception, some degree of faith precedes the most powerful data (the miracles; the personal objective evidence, and the conversations with deity), rather than faith following the personal experiences and the data.

Revelation often carries within it, the objective evidence that it is not a phenomenon generated by our own psyche. There are objective elements to revelation imbedded within it, as evidence that one is not crazy, and that they are not simply manufacturing the data.

Barring the fakers or the mentally unstable; The person who in actuality receives the witness of Gods existence by direct revelation from God, simply declares this knowledge "as one having authority" to do so for themselves, from revelation, and "not as the scribes" who are left to quote scripture or to quote science or to quote logic or to quote tradition (etc) as their authority for declaring the existence of God. I believe the orientation and quality of data gained by personal revelation versus all other types of "witness" is different.

Is there anyone here who can offer a more "sure" way of gaining the witness that God exists than by a true and direct revelation from God to an individual? [/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]2) SCOTT C.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Scott, I appreciate having someone who understands something about what I am saying. You description of personal guidance through revelation touches on the easily bridged gulf between those who experience the gift of revelation and those who do not.

While you demonstrate the person who’s experienced it and is able to describe it in part; and probably could elucidate at length regarding it’s effects. Pegg demonstrates the type of person who has no experience with revelation; does not understand revelation; and can offer no profound insight regarding revelation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ironically, it is often from this position of ignorance that the ignorant, (sometimes without embarrassment), offer criticisms of revelation. Such people are left standing outside of these experiences claiming they are "nonsense" and claiming there’s nothing to be had inside of such experiences to those who actually experience communication from God. [/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]3) Principles upon which revelation is given [/FONT][FONT=&quot] ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]I simply wanted to offer some context to this point). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I believe that the principles upon which God operates in giving revelation are not arbitrary or mere whims but that he operates on a set of rules. For example, as I’ve observed revelation, I believe that there is generally, an economy in heaven where the least influence on God’s part which serves to our benefit and guidance, is generally what is given. That is, I do not think he generally sends an angel to help us with a Sunday school lesson when minimal inspiration will work. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I believe that those who seek to obey God generally are given greater amounts of revelation than those who seek to rebel against God. I believe that all mentally competent individuals are capable of receiving revelation on some level. I believe that God gives personal revelation with the intent of serving his purpose of enlightening the individual from one level of truth to a greater level of truth, from one level of moral good, to another level of moral good. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I believe that God inspires and gives revelation in the set of symbols a person possesses. For example, when he spoke to Moses, it was in a language Moses could speak. When he gives a dream to Jacob, it was in symbolism that could make sense to Jacob. This is not to say that the individual will always understand the revelation at the time it is given, but may, like Peter having his waking vision in Acts, may only understand later, and in an evolving context, what was being taught and why. There are many other principles that affect personal revelation, but these are some I’ve observed and am certainly willing and wanting to clarify and improve this model with more data.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

4) Examples of personal revelation [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Scott C.’s[/FONT][FONT=&quot] example was quite wonderful since I think this sort of inspiration is widespread and common. I think it is often overlooked and simply attributed to having a “good idea”, (especially since it feels very similar to simply having a good idea that is not “revelatory” in nature.) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, there are so many ways that God seems to use to teach us. Perhaps I can give you a couple of initial examples both of inspiration and of the external evidence that may accompany such experiences, which, serve as evidence that they are not merely halucinations but are intelligence and information from a source external to the person who has them.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For examples : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
A)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Consider, two brothers, living on different continents (one in the U.S. and the other living in Europe) who are writing to each other, making plans concerning a mutual long term project. The plans and commitments for a mutual endeavor have taken more than a year to make. However, each receives a separate revelation on the same day regarding their lives. In their separate revelations, each brother is told NOT to do as they plan, but are each told to take different paths than they planned for so long. Thus, both are receiving a revelation, concerning the same subject, on the same day, at the same time. And both write to a letter to each other about this personal change in plan.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The letters they write to each other on the same day, describe the experience of revelation as the reason to change these personal plans. The letters cross in the mail. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The younger brother starts his letter with the sentence: "Dear Larry, I hope you are not disappointed, but the Lord has told me we are not supposed to go to school together." And then he writes what he feels he was told to do. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The older brother starts his letter with the sentence : "Dear Gary, I hope you are not disappointed, but the Lord has told me we are not supposed to go to school together." And then he writes what he feels HE was told to do.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I probably should point out that these examples are not anecdotal. I am the younger brother.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]

POST TWO OF TWO

[FONT=&quot]Though I think it would be difficult to describe the simple but profound clarity of the single thought that accompanied the revelation NOT to do as I planned and the concern and worry about how my brother would react to my sudden change in plan, I think there are elements that are understandable to someone who has not experienced such guidance. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
First of all, the personal discovery that God loves and is willing to guide the individual is a discovery that engenders an overwhelming gratitude to God for this specific care shown to an individual rather than a care on a “species” level. The concept that God will guide the individual as well, forms a firm anchoring point to which an individual can attach a faith that God will reward honest searches for truth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
On an objectively level, the concept of revelation itself is not and does not need to be immune to examination for authenticity. One is allowed to consider the chances of both brother having a mere change of heart at the same time on the same point. One may ask himself how likely, or unlikely such an occurrence is? One may add the likelihood of two mentally healthy brothers having a change of heart based on simultaneous hallucinations on different continents. To this, one may add the likelihood of identical hallucinatory messages given to two individuals on different continents and of their letters passing on the same day to considerations of authenticity. To such considerations, one can add the chance of the two brothers using identical words to describe the change of mind to the chance of a coincidence explaining this experience. Now, add to the consideration the continuation of similar experiences over and over, during a lifetime. At some point, such experiences of revelation, are taken to be part and parcel of a life that became immersed into a theology and a society of others having similar experiences.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Consider another simple example : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
B) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The younger brother is asleep, in bed with his wife. He has a dream that is "different" than the normal dream types in it’s intensity and depth of clarity and symbolism and, importantly, it is of a type that he’s experienced as revelatory. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In the dream, he is in a house and his father is standing over a pile of the things the son will inherit when he dies. The son is explaining that he does not want the "things" but rather he wants the father to stay. During the dream, the son realizes the father is going to die; is given some other detail and then awakens.

He describes the dream and the information he is given to his wife, he writes it in his diary and, being very early in the morning, he goes back to sleep with difficulty as he considers what happened. He is able to call his dad (who lives in another state), discuss his love, respect etc, but does not tell the father about the dream or it import (for reasons outside this discussion).

48 hours later, the father indeed dies suddenly of a heart attack while digging a post hole. He had no known heart disease (though to be fair the father had known hypertension)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Again, one is allowed to subject the revelatory dream to similar critical examinations as the first example. The same lessons and more can be added. Not only are there life lessons taught and opportunities given that would have been lost without the premonition the dream imparted, the concept of guidance regarding future events is implied. Information is passed (the imminent death of a beloved) that the brother could not have guessed nor known. A myriad of social and moral lessons accompany the receiver of such revelations, IF they will consider and use the communication wisely. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Sometimes I think there are simple lessons that are being taught. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
For example:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
C) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The younger brother always wanted a certain car, a Datsun 280 as a project to fix up. While traveling through a large city (of over 2 million people in it’s coverage area), on a whim, he buys a running sample of one for sale, which was sitting on the corner of an empty lot. He drives it from one state to another and starts working on it. 2 months later, he realizes he lost the title and prays for help in solving this problem. No help comes and so he decides to look through the newpaper for a non-running Datsun 280 from the classified ads in this same large city. Picking a phone number in the car ads at random, he phones and, upon discussing the car this man has for sale, the man’s voice seems familiar. He discovers it is the same man who sold him the first car and who happened to have decided that weekend to put an ad for a second similar car in the paper. ( The brother was able to arrange a duplicate title which, became unneeded as he subsequently found the first[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. )[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
There is a bit more to this story in terms of lessons learned. I have concluded that God simply wanted to show me that he could have fixed the problem by a divine intervention, and it was a lesson I needed. Importantly, there were other lessons that were, for my moral benefit, that I needed to learn. ( For example, I had blamed my wife for losing the title when it was I who lost it, and a few other lessons I needed)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Again, one can examine such experiences both for likelihood that it was merely coincidental, or, for that matter, that a lifetime of similar, frequently repeated experiences were coincidental. Once can be coincidence, but not when experiences occur over and over and over to the point that they are commonplace. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I am not sure if you can understand role of such experiences in the evolution and building of faith in God, not merely as a being of Power and Omniscience, but as a personal being who takes personal interest in the life of the individual and will interact with individuals in an intimate and close-knit relationship, and who will guide the individual and prove to the individual that many things are not arbitrary, but are evolving according to his plan.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
While one can read about Simeon (in NT Matthew) being given the revelation to know and recognize the Christ when he sees him in the temple, nothing one can read in the bible will tell them that their father is about to die and to contact and express gratitude and love for the life the Father has given the brother. While I can read about Moses parting the red sea to help the Israelites escape the Egyptians, it is not the same as an experienced revelation that tells one God could intervene to help on the level of a car title, but may not chose to so as to cause the brother to learn something profoundly important that will change his life if he will but pay attention to these teaching experiences.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]While most Christians Pray. What if they actually listened after they prayed, for feelings and impressions in their heart and minds after they prayed? What if they learned as an entire society, to listen to and communicate with God as a Father who is both loving and intimately interested in their lives and how their lives would unfold so as to ensure the greatest moral growth and happiness?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Lest you ask, I’ve never seen an angel that I am aware of. But when I first was exposed to the LDS re-adoption of the ancient Christian principle of revelation, I started keeping lists of these experiences I was having until it covered the page of my English bible. I’ve since stopped keeping track of individual times the Lord has given me insight and guidance, but I have not stopped being indescribably grateful that my witness that God lives is not dependent upon sacred texts (any sacred texts), but upon my experiences with him as an interested Father. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Pegg [/FONT][FONT=&quot], I hope that such examples make sense to you in terms of their effect upon the lives of individuals who have them and what it might mean that God is willing to communicate to anyone who has faith to seek communication with him. I do not believe there is anything special about me, but what is special is God’s love and grace and mercy on us that are not particularly special.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
To the LDS [/FONT][FONT=&quot] : Though the LDS society takes revelation at face value and these principles of God’s willingness to communicate almost as a matter of fact, I think that, as a convert, I still am able to remember what it was like to be “blind to revelation” and am so grateful that I cannot describe it, that I was able, in my life to be introduced to these experiences that many of you have had your entire lives. These are not experiences I would have found sim[FONT=&quot]ply[/FONT] studying early Christian doctrine, but with encouragement of Christians that believe that the early Christian doctrine was correct and who gave me sufficient faith to try and experiment with living these early Christian concepts.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Clear
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]ειτ[FONT=&quot]ωδρδρω[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]

Clear said:

POST TWO OF TWO
[FONT=&quot]While most Christians Pray. What if they actually listened after they prayed, for feelings and impressions in their heart and minds after they prayed? What if they learned as an entire society, to listen to and communicate with God as a Father who is both loving and intimately interested in their lives and how their lives would unfold so as to ensure the greatest moral growth and happiness?[/FONT]

Click to expand...

I have only addressed a tiny part of your post, but I think an important one.
Silent prayer, prayer in silence and meditation.

I nearly always attend thursday evening communion in our church. The service is led by any one of several priests. Two are full time priests and the others are either part time or retired even a retired Bishop.

They fall into three groups.
1 The "teachers" who remind us of the past saints, martyrs, missionaries and leaders and the work they have done for Christendom.
2) The "evangelicals" who take every opportunity to use the daily gospel texts. to encourage us to action.
3) The "Contemplatives" Who give us time to meditate in silence and enter into a spiritual dialogue.

Of course in practice, there is an element of each in all three.

But the main difference is being given sufficient " Silent Time" to contemplate and to pray.

It is this taking time that is so difficult in our daily lives.
Rather like a rushed meal gives no time for digestion.
Rushed prayer is one sided, even selfish, or poorly considered... The Holy spirit will guide your prayers, if you wait on him and give him time. It leads to a totally different experience.

I always look forward to the Thursday evening communions, not because they are poorly attended which they tend to be, but because I know I will sometimes have time to pray silently with others of a like mind.