Who is the Devil?

commandment4 · Mar 27, 2006

I know this is a wierd question but Who is the Devil?
we have been taught that he is Lucifer is the Devil (Satan) and one of Gods fallen angels but can you tell me where it says this in the Bible?
Please give me some scripture to back this story up.

EnhancedSpirit · Mar 27, 2006

Well, first of all Lucifer is only metioned once in the entire bible.
Isa 14:12 - Show Context How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Satan, on the other hand was a liar and a thief from the beginning. So these two are not the same. God has no enemies, but he had to show us 'opposites' so that we might understand him better. Satan was create by God, and works to purify us and lead us to God's will.

Isa 54:16 - Show Context Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

The devil is only referenced in the new testament. The devil resides in the heart of man. The 'devil' is the evil in man, and has been projected as a seperate being, so man can blame their wickedness on something, instead of accepting it as their own.

evearael · Mar 27, 2006

Revelations 12 refers to him, for a Christian perspective...

michel · Mar 27, 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk

evil is quite an interesting article.

gnostic · Mar 27, 2006

However, if you were to read the whole chapter 14 of Isaiah 14:12, and in context, you would find it is actually talking about the King of Babylon at that time, and this Lucifer has nothing to do with Satan. It is speaking figuratively and prophetically of how the Babylonian empire would fall.

Isaiah said:
14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

It is very clear that the Babylonian king it is compared to Lucifer.

Christians are as bad as Muslims, when it comes to taking a small piece of passage out of context. To understand that passage, serious consideration must be given to the content of the whole chapter.

I don't mean to be rude, but I would suggest to EnhancedSpirit (or anyone else for that matter) that she should read the entire chapter, and not just quoting a single verse.

Also the Book of Job is where Satan is really prominent in the Bible. And it seemed that Satan was really God's helper, not his enemy.

Satan really didn't appear anywhere until the Book of Job and the Chronicles, and by that time, the Hebrew scriptures were influenced by Zorastrianism's angelolgy and demonology. All other references to Satan are only speculations, such as the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The Devil is only mentioned in the New Testament.

And it should be noted that Satan was not only one to be compared to the Morning Star or Lucifer; someone had pointed out to me (I can't remember who) that Jesus too was compared to the Morning Star.

Revelation 22:16 said:
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

So it begs a question: "Is Jesus really Satan?"

Adstar · Mar 27, 2006

Jesus is the Bright and Morning star

Lucifer is the Son of the morning. They are different.

Isaiah 14
12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.
16 Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:

Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?

Lucifer was not a man, a ancient king. Because he is identified as falling from heaven. This links in the scriptures that satan will fall from heaven.

Jesus said:
Luke 10:18
And He said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Look at the link between the devil (satan) and lucifer in the following:

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Isaiah 14
" Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities, "

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

may · Mar 28, 2006

And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. revelation 12;7-9
(Genesis 3:1) Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: "Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?"
(Revelation 20:2) And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one. 1 John 5;19
(John 12:31) Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out

EnhancedSpirit · Mar 28, 2006

gnostic said:
I don't mean to be rude, but I would suggest to EnhancedSpirit (or anyone else for that matter) that she should read the entire chapter, and not just quoting a single verse.

Actually, I know that Lucifer is the Babylonian King. But I have to take baby steps with some people. It's hard to get people to see the truth, when they have only relied on others to interpret the bible for them. I do not think Lucifer has anything to do with Satan, except to explain how man can 'fall from grace'. But I was mainly trying to explain that Satan, and Lucifer are not the same person.

the truth be with us · Mar 28, 2006

satan, also called the adversary or the devil, is the enemy of righteouness and thouse who seek to follow God. He is a son of God who was once an angel "in authority in the prsence of God" (D&C 76:25; see also isaiah 14:12; and D&C 76:26-27)

EnhancedSpirit · Mar 28, 2006

Devil, translated from the greek word

Diabolos:

prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
applied to a man who, in action or words, opposes the cause of God

gnostic · Mar 29, 2006

EnhancedSpirit said:
But I have to take baby steps with some people. It's hard to get people to see the truth, when they have only relied on others to interpret the bible for them./QUOTE]
Taking baby steps are only for babies. If you must quote from any book, let alone a scripture, then these baby steps can be misleading, especially if you take into consideration of the whole chapter. That's called taking quotes "OUT OF CONTEXT".

In the case of Lucifer in Isaiah, the interpretation of just single verse would be different from the meaning of the whole chapter. The original meaning is lost, if you do that. Small passages are often open any sort of interpretations (and even more often of mis-interpretations).

And that the reason why Christians get into trouble, because they are seen deliberately mis-interpreting the texts. Muslims make the same mistakes too. They loved mis-interpreting small passages as much as Christians, instead of taking the chapter as a whole.

may · Mar 29, 2006

EnhancedSpirit said:
Devil, translated from the greek word

Diabolos:

prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely

a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,

applied to a man who, in action or words, opposes the cause of God

yes i agree, This descriptive name Devil was given to Satan because he is the chief and foremost slanderer and false accuser of Jehovah, his good word, and his holy name

opuntia · Mar 29, 2006

Lucifer, in Hebrew, means "heylel,...the morning-star." Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. (It helps to have this book as it has the Hebrew and Greek words and the English translation of them.) Lucifer you know is in Isaiah 14:12.

Another verse in Revelations (2:28) carries the word "morning star." In that context, whoever prevails in Christ will have power over the "morning star."

Another verse in Revelations (22:16) refers to another "morning star" which in this case is Jesus:

"I Jesus have sent mine angels to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

In the book of Job (38:7), God asks where Job was, "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" God asked Job where he was when He, God, had "laid the foundations of the earth" (38:4) or the creation of the earth. It appears that many sons of God shouted for joy at the prospect of coming to the newly created earth. The "morning stars" appears to be a reference to order of rank, where those appointed "early" (like the morning star that rises early) had authority as the angels.

Peter writes that "God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness [no more light and knowledge from God], to be reserved unto judgment." (2 Peter 2:4).

Jude writes of "the angels which kept not their first estate [earth is considered the second estate and the afterlife the third], but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:6)

John the Revelator writes:

"And there was war in heaven: Michael [from Hebrew, "Miyka'el,...who (is) like God." Strong's] and his angels fought against the dragon [Greek, "drakon,...a fabulous kind of serpent (perh. as supposed to fascinate)." Strong's]; and the dragon fought and his angels,

"And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil [Greek, "diabolos,...a traducer [maligner; twists or alters truth]." Strong's], and Satan [Greek, "Satanas,...the accuser." Strong's], which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:7-9).

It appears that since bloodshed is not a part of heaven, they argued their points and Lucifer and his supporters lost. He probably twisted some truth to fit his arguments and to convince his followers. As he attempts still to twist the truth of God, we may be under his influence if we believe a lie of his. See Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden with the serpent (Genesis 3:1-7).

I hope this will answer some of your questions.

EnhancedSpirit · Mar 30, 2006

gnostic said:
Taking baby steps are only for babies. If you must quote from any book, let alone a scripture, then these baby steps can be misleading, especially if you take into consideration of the whole chapter. That's called taking quotes "OUT OF CONTEXT".

In the case of Lucifer in Isaiah, the interpretation of just single verse would be different from the meaning of the whole chapter. The original meaning is lost, if you do that. Small passages are often open any sort of interpretations (and even more often of mis-interpretations).

And that the reason why Christians get into trouble, because they are seen deliberately mis-interpreting the texts. Muslims make the same mistakes too. They loved mis-interpreting small passages as much as Christians, instead of taking the chapter as a whole.

I agree with you, even the KKK uses verses in the bible to validate their positions. I however was only showing the Lucifer and Satan were not the same. And in terms of spiritual maturity, many are still babies.

Ori · Mar 30, 2006

I'm sure i've said this before, but couldn't the Satan figure merely be seen as a personifacation of Gods wrath?

jewscout · Mar 30, 2006

opuntia said:
Lucifer, in Hebrew, means "heylel,...the morning-star." Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. (It helps to have this book as it has the Hebrew and Greek words and the English translation of them.) Lucifer you know is in Isaiah 14:12.

however, "Lucifer" does not become part of the text until the 4th century, until then it's not even the name of a person.

Isaiah is talking about the King of Babylon, not the devil or satan or anyone else.

Lucifer is used by Jerome in the Vulgate (4th century) to translate into Latin Isaiah 14:12-14, where the Hebrew text refers to heilel ben-shachar (הילל בן שחר in Hebrew). Heilel signifies the planet Venus, and ben-shachar means "the brilliant one, son of the morning", to whose mythical fate that of the King of Babylon is compared in the prophetic vision. The Jewish Encyclopedia reports that "it is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star". Isaiah 14 starts out discussing the King of Babylon, and the reference "morning star, son of the dawn" was originally a poetic title similar to Louis XIV being called "The Sun King".

Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Lucifer_and_the_Hebrew_Bible

opuntia · Mar 30, 2006

jewscout said:
however, "Lucifer" does not become part of the text until the 4th century, until then it's not even the name of a person.

Isaiah is talking about the King of Babylon, not the devil or satan or anyone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Lucifer_and_the_Hebrew_Bible

You do not mention preexistence, a state considered to be in existence before the creation of this earth. Ecclesiastes 12:7 ("return," KJV); Jeremiah 1:5. There were many creations of planets and stars obviously, since our sky is filled with ovoid objects, too numerous to count.

"And he [God] brought him [Abram] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." (Genesis 15:5).

God used His own stars to give Abram [later Abraham] a grasp at the magnitude of the promise of the children Abram would have if he remained faithful to God. There are so many objects out there that some believe that there are other creations like our earth, that God has not limited Himself to this one planet.

"He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." (Psalm 147:4-5).

That there were spirits before the creation of the earth is not an impossibility, and that Evil One may have been one of them who fell from grace and cast down to earth to torment us if he can.

jewscout · Mar 30, 2006

opuntia said:
You do not mention preexistence, a state considered to be in existence before the creation of this earth. Ecclesiastes 12:7 ("return," KJV); Jeremiah 1:5. There were many creations of planets and stars obviously, since our sky is filled with ovoid objects, too numerous to count.

"And he [God] brought him [Abram] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." (Genesis 15:5).

God used His own stars to give Abram [later Abraham] a grasp at the magnitude of the promise of the children Abram would have if he remained faithful to God. There are so many objects out there that some believe that there are other creations like our earth, that God has not limited Himself to this one planet.

"He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." (Psalm 147:4-5).

That there were spirits before the creation of the earth is not an impossibility, and that Evil One may have been one of them who fell from grace and cast down to earth to torment us if he can.

again the name Lucifer as a proper noun did not come into existance until the 4th century CE
and the entire segment of Isaiah that i was referring to is about the king of Babylon, not a spiritual creature.

jewscout · Mar 30, 2006

That there were spirits before the creation of the earth is not an impossibility, and that Evil One may have been one of them who fell from grace and cast down to earth to torment us if he can

in Tanach (christian OT) i know of little scriptural evidence to support the story of the war between Satan and G-d or Satan/Lucifer/Carl the plumber falling from any kind of grace to rule in "hell"

this would be a later christian creation,
for Judaism, The satan is one of the Ministering Angels who can do nothing w/o G-d's say so. Anything else is not monotheism, but dualsim IMPO.

gnostic · Mar 30, 2006

My problem is this.

Satan looks like he was working for God in the Book of Job. They don't look like arch-enemies. There are no indication that Satan is fallen here. So when was Job written? Most likely after the Exiled at Babylon. Perhaps even after their return.

If Satan had fallen before Adam (pre-existence as Optunia) was created or during the temptation at Eden, then why are there no mention of this fall?

As to the Revelation, you should no better than to rely on it as coherent texts. The contents in Revelation have far too many symbols that you can't take a single verse literally. The Revelation is too open to interpretations, and how many times have Christians tried to decipher it, and got it wrong. So many times, they thought they found the date of Christ's 2nd coming, but each time he doesn't show up on the reported dates.

Don't get me wrong, optunia. The Revelation is a very interesting book, but the so-called visions and revelations have made fools of many.

Answer this.

Why did none of the books give us the name of Satan until the Jews had been exiled to Babylon? Why did archangels Michael and Gabriel wasn't mention until this time as well?

I find it a coincidence that Satan, Michael, Gabriel, and other angels and demons have not been given any name until their contact, first with the Neo-Babylonians and then with the Persians. Babylon, at the time of Nebuchazzar, had contact with Zorastrianism (because Persia and Media was part of the Persian Empire), which had a very complex angelology and demonology.

The pseudigrapha books of Enoch and book of Daniel are a classical example of direct Zorastrian influence. There are bunch of Jewish literature that had expanded narratives in the Torah.

The OT bible, or the Hebrew Tanakh, have no mention of Satan until the later books. Not a single time, did the Torah, or the 1st books of the OT, mention the Fall of Satan.

I did find the Fall of Satan, but not in the canonical texts. It is found in the Haggada, which consisted of exaggeration of the canonical texts, derived from Talmud, Midrash and other texts that were used by the Jews as interpretations of narratives and the Mosaic laws. You will find the English translation of the Haggada (titled the Legends of the Jews) at Sacred Texts (Judiasm).

By the time of Jesus and his disciples, they would be familiar with such legends of the Fall of Satan, or that of the books of Enoch.

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