Jesus did not die on the Cross

Shuttlecraft said:

Go tell that to one of your JW chums in another forum who called me-
"Ignorant, a fable-spinner, talks drivel, a deceiver, a racist, self-deluded"

So I told him- "If you're looking for a fight mate, you've come to the right boy!"

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Just because this person,who you say is a JW,called you names,does not justify your behavior.People have this idea that JW's are perfect people.They are not.They are imperfect and human just like you.If a JW, or anyone else, calls you names,then they are not doing what they are supposed to be doing.They are making a mistake.We are all to conduct ourselves in a good manner towards all of our brothers and sisters.If you retaliate, then you are returning evil for evil.

1 Peter 3:9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

You have an argumentative personality and want to repay others with evil.Thats not good brother.We all get mad but its what we do with that anger that separates us from others.

If you are to call yourself a Christian,then,you must act accordingly.Loving,not so short tempered,caring towards others,understanding etc..

The only name calling I have witnessed is you calling the JW's names.
Take a break from your anger and try to maintain.If you continue this behavior then you have no right in calling yourself a Christian at all.If you go against the teachings of Jesus Christ then you are the opposite of Christian and serve satan.

outhouse said:

Not in biblical scholarships.It is that obvious

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You don't have to go to college to understand Jesus mate!
"When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus" (Acts 4:13)

And Jesus had to tell the "scholars" to get their noses out of their heavyweight theological volumes-
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39/40)

And Paul had to remind people-
"I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)

Jesus was easy enough to understand..
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37)

Further to posts #4, 45, 54.

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [4]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:31] Beware of the Day when every soul shall find itself confronted with all the good it has done and all the evil it has done. It will wish there were a great distance between it and that evil. And Allah cautions you against His punishment. And Allah is Most Compassionate to His servants.
[3:32] Say, ‘If you love Allah, follow me: then will Allah love you and forgive you your faults. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.’
[3:33] Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger;’ but if they turn away, then remember thatAllah loves not the disbelievers.
[3:34] Allah did choose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of ‘Imran above all peoples —
[3:35] A race, co-related with one another. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
[3:36] Remember when the woman of ‘Imran said, ‘My Lord, I have vowed to Thee what is in my womb to be dedicated to Thy service. So do accept it of me; verily, Thou alone art All-Hearing, All-Knowing.’
[3:37] But when she was delivered of it, she said, ‘My Lord, I am delivered of a female’ — and Allah knew best what she had brought forth and the male she was thinking of was not like the female she had brought forth — ‘and I have named her Mary, and I commit her and her offspring to Thy protection from Satan, the rejected.’
[3:38] So her Lord accepted her with a gracious acceptance and caused her to grow an excellent growth and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah visited her in the chamber, he found with her provisions. He said, ‘O Mary, whence hast thou this?’ She replied, ‘It is from Allah.’ Surely, Allah gives to whomsoever He pleases without measure.
[3:39] There and then did Zachariah pray to his Lord, saying, ‘My Lord, grant me from Thyself pure offspring; surely, Thou art the Hearer of prayer.’
[3:40] And the angels called to him as he stood praying in the chamber: ‘Allah gives thee glad tidings of Yahya, who shall testify to the truth of a word from Allah — noble and chaste and a Prophet, from among the righteous.’
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online


Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Regards

Shuttlecraft said:

You don't have to go to college to understand Jesus mate!

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Well your factually wrong.


Priest all go to college before they can speak a word to you.



Without college you are factually blind to reality here.

paarsurrey said:

Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Regards

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You do not have the intellect to debate anything here.

You do not even understand the definition of the word plagiarized.


Example.


What does THIS WORD MEAN ---- Plagiarized can you tell us what it means??

Bible Student said:

..The only name calling I have witnessed is you calling the JW's names..

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You must have misunderstood me mate, I was hoping you'd enlighten us about things such as why JW's don't celebrate Christmas or Easter, and why they let each other die for want of blood transfusions?..

Shuttlecraft said:

You must have misunderstood me mate, I was hoping you'd enlighten us about things such as why JW's don't celebrate Christmas or Easter, and why they let each other die for want of blood transfusions?..

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Oh no....I understood you perfectly brother.

I already explained about Birthdays and Easter in a previous comment but I will again.

Can you find anywhere in the holy scriptures where God commands anyone to celebrate Christmas,Easter or Birthdays? The word Christmas never appears in the holy scriptures.Neither does December 25th.

Easter is a pagan holiday that has to do with rebirth of the earth.Springtime.Thats what the egg represents.New life.The rabbit represents fertility.It does not originate with God at all.

Birthdays are an act of self worship and Idolatry.It is glorifying ones self and putting yourself on a pedestal for one day.All glory goes to God.Gods people never celebrated birthdays in the holy scriptures.It is a pagan holiday.Theres much proof in the holy scriptures.In Genesis 40:20-22 it speaks of King Pharaoh who had a birthday celebration feast and killed his chief baker by hanging him.In Mark 6:21-28 it speaks of King Herod Antipas having a huge birthday celebration.This is when John the Baptist was beheaded.His head was showcased at this birthday party.Both of these Kings were pagans and against God.

Jesus,his parents nor his disciples ever celebrated birthdays.None of Gods people did.

This scripture explains much about it.Ecclesiastes 7:1 A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth.

What is Christmas? Its supposed to be one giant birthday party for Jesus.

Everything that has to do with Christmas is bad.All the practices are of pagan origin.Yule logs,wreaths,christmas trees,mistletoe etc.. These all originate with pagan customs.The day december 25th coincides with an old pagan holiday called Saturnalia.This was a holiday that was practiced by Romans which is really worship of the Son,the winter solstice celebration.

Christmas today does not even mention Jesus.Its all about commercialism.When you look at tv commercials all you see is santa claus.Its about making money for companies and their products.Materialism at its finest.Jesus preached about how bad materialism was.Ironically thats what Christmas is all about.Materialism.

People crush each other trying to get into department stores.They are fighting to get good deals on cheap products.Spending the night outside of malls.Even killing each other in some cases.Mothers all stressed out trying to get dinner ready.Buying presents for ungrateful kids.Parties until morning.Over drinking,DWI's,overeating,sexual encounters etc..None of this is good.

Its actually mocking the Son of God.
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BLOOD

The reason JW's do not get full blood transfusion is because God say the blood is the life.

God told Noah about this.
Genesis 9:3, 4. 3 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you.Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. 4 Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat.

It was even in the law.
Leviticus 17:10 “‘If any man of the house of Israel or any foreigner who is residing in your midst eats any sort of blood, I will certainly set my face against the one who is eating the blood, and I will cut him off* from among his people.

Even in the NT it is spoken of as bad.
Acts 15:28, 29. 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

Eating blood was a capital offense in the OT.
1 Samuel 14:32, 33. 32 So the people began rushing greedily at the spoil, and they took sheep and cattle and calves and slaughtered them on the ground, and they ate the meat along with the blood. 33 So it was reported to Saul: “Look! The people are sinning against Jehovah by eating meat with the blood.” At this he said: “You have acted faithlessly. Roll a large stone to me immediately.”


Gods Word specifically calls the blood the life.
Deuteronomy 12:22-24. 22 You may eat it as you would eat the gazelle and the deer; both the unclean person and the clean person may eat it. 23 Just be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the flesh. 24 You must not eat it. You should pour it out on the ground like water.

So if God does not want you to eat blood, and His Word tells everyone to abstain from it,we can clearly gather from this that we are not to take it in to our veins as well.

Bible Student said:

The word Christmas never appears in the holy scriptures.
Easter is a pagan holiday
Birthdays are an act of self worship and Idolatry
The reason JW's do not get full blood transfusion is because God say the blood is the life

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I'm sure God doesn't mind Christians joyfully celebrating the birth of his son at Christmas..
Likewise, Easter is a great celebration of Jesus's victory over death and I'm sure God doesn't mind that either..
Birthdays are a wonderful thing that bind families together by the giving of cards and presents. Even the Three Wise Men brought presents for Jesus..
Eating and drinking blood may have been a revolting habit in ancient times so no wonder God told them not to do it, but I'm sure he'd overlook people having transfusions to save their lives..

Bible Student said:

The reason JW's do not get full blood transfusion is because

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Of factual ignorance, fanaticism and fundamentalism.


You place mythology before reality, creating conditions for your poor children that amounts to child abuse and neglect. :slap:

Bible Student said:

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BLOOD

The reason JW's do not get full blood transfusion is because God say the blood is the life.

God told Noah about this.
Genesis 9:3, 4. 3 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you.Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. 4 Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat.

It was even in the law.
Leviticus 17:10 “‘If any man of the house of Israel or any foreigner who is residing in your midst eats any sort of blood, I will certainly set my face against the one who is eating the blood, and I will cut him off* from among his people.

Even in the NT it is spoken of as bad.
Acts 15:28, 29. 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

Eating blood was a capital offense in the OT.
1 Samuel 14:32, 33. 32 So the people began rushing greedily at the spoil, and they took sheep and cattle and calves and slaughtered them on the ground, and they ate the meat along with the blood. 33 So it was reported to Saul: “Look! The people are sinning against Jehovah by eating meat with the blood.” At this he said: “You have acted faithlessly. Roll a large stone to me immediately.”


Gods Word specifically calls the blood the life.
Deuteronomy 12:22-24. 22 You may eat it as you would eat the gazelle and the deer; both the unclean person and the clean person may eat it. 23 Just be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the flesh. 24 You must not eat it. You should pour it out on the ground like water.

So if God does not want you to eat blood, and His Word tells everyone to abstain from it,we can clearly gather from this that we are not to take it in to our veins as well.

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As a matter of interest, after writing all that, do you eat kosher meat? Or are you vegan?

Bible Student said:

Everything that has to do with Christmas is bad.All the practices are of pagan origin.

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And if you did not follow fanaticism and fundamentalism so strongly, you would have an open mind and could actually learn about Christianity.

Christianity picked up many influences from pagan religions, it is all through the religion. They were considered atheist when they started.

Judaism is based on and originated in pagan religions.

Bible Student said:

..Everything that has to do with Christmas is bad.All the practices are of pagan origin..

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Look at it another way mate, the fact that Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus means it has stamped out, overwritten, crushed and deleted all the old paganism previously associated with it!
Likewise, if you build one of your JW meeting halls on ancient Comanche sites, you're crushing out their heathen beliefs beneath it..

Knight of Albion said:

As a matter of interest, after writing all that, do you eat kosher meat? Or are you vegan?

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No I eat meat.Kosher law was done away with in the NT.Everything from God is good and as long as it is accepted with thanksgiving then all is well.


1 Timothy 4:4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

Matthew 15:11 "What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them."

16“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them.

Kosher law was practiced by the Jews.Jesus came and established the new covenant.He changed things.Just like circumcision.It is no longer required.Thats why Paul speaks of circumcision of the heart.

Shuttlecraft said:

I'm sure God doesn't mind Christians joyfully celebrating the birth of his son at Christmas..
Likewise, Easter is a great celebration of Jesus's victory over death and I'm sure God doesn't mind that either..
Birthdays are a wonderful thing that bind families together by the giving of cards and presents. Even the Three Wise Men brought presents for Jesus..
Eating and drinking blood may have been a revolting habit in ancient times so no wonder God told them not to do it, but I'm sure he'd overlook people having transfusions to save their lives..

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What man thinks has nothing to do with what God commands.Birthdays,Christmas and Easter are wrong and not to be practiced.

Putting blood in your body to save your life is not what God commands.You put your faith in God.There are also other alternatives too.

Another thing brother.You will never find anywhere in the NT where it mentions 3 wise men.Thats something that was made up as well due to peoples lack of knowledge.

Also,the Magi did not bring Jesus presents because it was his birthday.They brought him presents because they knew he was the Son of God and the Messiah.
When the Magi arrived it was not even Jesus Birthday.This occurred almost 15 months after the original nativity scene in Luke 2.The Magi appear in Matthew 2 when Jesus is already a child, with his mother in a house,not the Manger.

Hi One-answer,
Allow me to answer your objections.

Deuteronomy 21:22,23: 'And if a man hath committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (For he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.'

The passage means, in plain English, 'Bury him that is hanged out of the way by evening: his hanging body defiles the land; for God's curse rests upon it.'

This understanding is supported by a passage in Galatians (3:13), which confirms the unbroken nature of the scriptures. It says, 'Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:'

OK. So a person killed in this manner must bear a sin worthy of God's curse. But, you say, Jesus was innocent and had not sinned. It would be totally unjust for God to allow Jesus to be killed in this manner.

Wrong. Just as Abraham took his son to be sacrificed, God as Father took Jesus his son to the same site to be sacrificed. Jesus was the Lamb of God, the sacrificial lamb, the Passover offering, without spot or blemish. He allowed himself to be this offering, an innocent man taking the punishment that sinners deserve. The sin of the world was placed on his flesh, that SIN might be crucified, once and for all time. When darkness descended over the land, Jesus experienced the awful reality of carrying our sin and feeling abandoned by God - for God cannot abide the presence of sin. The body of Jesus had become a curse because it bore OUR sin.

What is 'the wages of sin'? Is it not DEATH?

So Jesus HAD to die because he bore the sin of mankind. This is exactly what the sacrifices of the Old Testament were trying to demonstrate.

The fact that Jesus was raised to life again, after three days and nights, shows that God accepted the sacrifice. In so doing, sin is dealt with, and so too is death.

Bible Student said:

What man thinks has nothing to do with what God commands. Birthdays, Christmas and Easter are wrong and not to be practiced.

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I do practice my own birthday every year otherwise I’m ageless.

Bible Student said:

Jesus came and established the new covenant. He changed things. Just like circumcision.It is no longer required.Thats why Paul speaks of circumcision of the heart.

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Bible Student said:

Putting blood in your body to save your life is not what God commands.

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Where did you get this from?

Further to posts #4, 45, 54.423

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [5]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:41] He said, ‘My Lord, how shall I have a son, when age has overtaken me, and my wife is barren?’ He answered, ‘Such is the way of Allah: He does what He pleases.’
[3:42] He said, ‘My Lord, appoint a token for me.’ He replied, ‘Thy token shall be that thou shalt not speak to men for three days except by signs. And remember thy Lord much and glorify Him in the evening and in the early morning.’
[3:43] And remember when the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah has chosen thee and purified thee and chosen thee above the women of all peoples.
[3:44] ‘O Mary, be obedient to thy Lord and prostrate thyself and worship God alone with those who worship.’
[3:45] This is of the tidings of things unseen which We reveal to thee. And thou wast not with them when they cast their arrows, as to which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor wast thou with them when they disputed with one another.
[3:46] When the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
[3:47] ‘And he shall speak to the people in the cradle and when of middle age, and he shall be of the righteous.’
[3:48] She said, ‘My Lord, how shall I have a son, when no man has touched me?’ He said, “Such is the way of Allah, He creates what He pleases. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, ‘Be!’ and it is.
[3:49] “And He will teach him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel;
[3:50] “And will make him a Messenger to the children of Israel (to say): ‘I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion out for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird, then I will breathe into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of Allah; and I will heal the night-blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead, by the command of Allah; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you be believers.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Regards

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HONESTY is important here.



You do not comprehend English????????

Plagiarized does not mean copied word for word

The character can be starkly different and still be factually plagiarized.


DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?


Do you have the intellect to understand?

has islam stopped all learning here?

One-answer,
Your second point was a reference to Mark 14, Luke 24 and Acts 1. You suggest that these passages are evidence that Jesus did not die, and that Jesus must have recovered enough from crucifixion to be able to appear before his disciples and eat food.

Mark 14 tells us that the disciples who had accompanied Jesus to the garden at Gethsemane, after his last supper, fled when the temple guard came to arrest Jesus. This is true. Only Peter followed the group back to the city, and he did so at a distance ('afar off', verse 54).

Were there disciples present at the crucifixion, witnessing his death? YES. Jesus spoke to a group of women on his way to be crucified (See Luke 23:27 and 48) They were present. So too were Jesus' mother, his mother's sister and Mary Magdalene. The disciple John also stood by. (See John 19:25-27)

Having died (as it tells us in Mark 15:37 and Luke 23:46) Jesus is taken down from the cross and wrapped in cloth by his disciples, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. (Luke 23:53 and John 19:39)

Let's also remember that the Roman centurion, when confronted by his governor, Pontius Pilate, confirmed that Jesus was DEAD. (Mark 15:44)

One-answer,
Last point. When Jesus appeared to the disciples in the house in Jerusalem, the disciples were afraid and thought the risen Christ must be a ghost. He was not a ghost, but he was the resurrected 'flesh and bones' (Luke 24:39) of Jesus. The passages you quote show this to be the case. They do not suggest that Jesus had somehow recovered from crucifixion to walk the streets in good health.