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Religious accountability

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
My code is that there should no killing without a book saying so. Christians walk around and cast me to hell for not being a Christian. So them casting me to hell using their word of God is no different then me holding them accountable for their word of God. It works a bit both ways.

They don't even live up to my code. Sad really.
Except you haven't done that. You got it sadly, sadly wrong. The only thing that's been condemned is your ignorance of the commandment.
 

nightwolf

Member
Not quite an accurate translation. A better on is "you shall do no murder."

It does not say that. It says:

13 “Thou shalt not kill.

Twisting it to support your theory proves my point of Christians picking and choosing what to obey.

The difference is that a Christian killing isn't breaking a commandment during war time.

A Christian has to judge a broad group in order to prescribe killing. 2 laws broke. And I know, I know, you can quote tons of old testament that supports war. Jesus was the New Covenant, what about His rules?

Don't claim to be a food critic without credentials.

And don't claim I am going to hell while breaking your own laws. I would never claim to be something I am not.

So, just because you're not Christian means you don't have to show forgiveness, but yet "expect" it from others? My, my! Aren't we special?!

I give a rats tail end if a Christian has any feeling for me. What I do care about is people running around telling other people they are going to hell but not standing the fact that they do wrongs.

Since the Christian didn't sin, I'd have to assume that you're due nothing of the sort.

He sinned! He judged a group of people and prescribed death. If you don't see that then you are part of the group I posted this topic about.

It was wrong of you to expect something of him that you're unwilling to give, yourself. Learning that lesson is how we get along in the world.

No it isn't. I give nothing to anyone. I am me and if you don't like that you can kiss my backend. That is the mantra I live by. It is simple, it has no expectations, it has no promises, it has no claims, it simply is what it is.

I don't need lessons from a perfected group whom thinks they can do no wrong but is fine to call out my wrongs. I will call it how I see, always been that way and always will be.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It does not say that. It says:

13 “Thou shalt not kill.

Twisting it to support your theory proves my point of Christians picking and choosing what to obey.
ROFLMO.

Here you go:
Thou shalt not kill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Twisting it to support your theory proves my point of Christians picking and choosing what to obey.
How does it do that? I'm not a Christian here.
A Christian has to judge a broad group in order to prescribe killing. 2 laws broke. And I know, I know, you can quote tons of old testament that supports war. Jesus was the New Covenant, what about His rules?
You're just digging your grave of unsupportable argument deeper, my friend.
And don't claim I am going to hell while breaking your own laws. I would never claim to be something I am not.
Why would I claim that you're going to hell? To what laws do you refer??? I have no idea what you're talking about.
I give a rats tail end if a Christian has any feeling for me.
Well, THAT'S abundantly evident...
What I do care about is people running around telling other people they are going to hell but not standing the fact that they do wrongs.
I don't think anyone is in a position to tell anyone that they're going to hell.
He sinned! He judged a group of people and prescribed death.
It's not a sin to judge someone. It might be ill-advised, or in poor taste, but it's not a sin.
No it isn't. I give nothing to anyone.
Of course you don't.
I am me and if you don't like that you can kiss my backend. That is the mantra I live by. It is simple, it has no expectations, it has no promises, it has no claims, it simply is what it is.
But you're unwilling to let others be who they claim to be. I see.
I don't need lessons from a perfected group whom thinks they can do no wrong but is fine to call out my wrongs.
What group is that, pray tell?
I will call it how I see, always been that way and always will be.
Of that I have no doubt. What is in doubt are your conclusions.
 

nightwolf

Member

And you quote wikipedia? That people write? Those who corrupt the bible to fit their ideology?

Let me do this from the BIBLE, you know that book with the word of God in it:

Thou=you
Shalt=shall
Not=not
Kill=kill,murder,mame

How does it do that? I'm not a Christian here.

Your in support of them. Mines well be.

You're just digging your grave of unsupportable argument deeper, my friend.

Nope! Let me quote me from another forum to save on typing.

"Matthew 7:1- Judge not, that you be not judged

If you judge, you receive the same judgement you cast

Matthew 7:2- For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

As I said above, your measure of judgement is projected back to you.

Matthew 7:3- And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

We are sinners and it is impossible for us to be otherwise. So we all have the speck in our eye. That speck can only be removed by the glory of God. I will add:

Romans 3:23- For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

We are all sinners.

Matthew 7:4- Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

Again, we all have problems and we all sin.

Matthew 7:5- Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Through righteousness alone can we discern the sins of others allowing us to help a brother in need."

Why would I claim that you're going to hell? To what laws do you refer??? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Come on now, I live in the bible belt. I have on more then one occasion had Christians come to my door and tell me to repent or I'm going to hell. Thats judgmental.

Well, THAT'S abundantly evident...

I'm glad of that.

I don't think anyone is in a position to tell anyone that they're going to hell.

But they do.

It's not a sin to judge someone. It might be ill-advised, or in poor taste, but it's not a sin.

Please refer above.

Of course you don't.

Yep,yep.

But you're unwilling to let others be who they claim to be. I see.

You can claim to be whatever you want. Live by what you claim to be.

What group is that, pray tell?

I really hope you know by now. I assume we are on the same page.

Of that I have no doubt. What is in doubt are your conclusions.

Nope.

Don't claim to be something and act completely contrary to what you claim. It is rather simple.
 
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FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
Not quite. Christianity is entirely based on the reconciliation of humanity with God. But that was a nice try. :rolleyes:

Reconciliation based on being covered in blood. Every tiny sin is no different from hitler in his eyes. It is only by being coverd in the blood of christ that god passes-over you.

So while I don't say you are wrong, it would be wrong to say I'm wrong. :yes:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And you quote wikipedia? That people write? Those who corrupt the bible to fit their ideology?
And you quote the bible? That people wrote? you who corrupt what you read to fit your mistaken interpretation?
Let me do this from the BIBLE, you know that book with the word of God in it
"Word of God?" Wow! What fundigelical planet did you step off of?
Your in support of them. Mines well be.
I support polar bears, too. Might as well be one? This doesn't make any sense.
You just can't stand it that you've been caught in a blatant mistake.
"Matthew 7:1- Judge not, that you be not judged

If you judge, you receive the same judgement you cast

Matthew 7:2- For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

As I said above, your measure of judgement is projected back to you.

Matthew 7:3- And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

We are sinners and it is impossible for us to be otherwise. So we all have the speck in our eye. That speck can only be removed by the glory of God. I will add:

Romans 3:23- For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

We are all sinners.

Matthew 7:4- Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

Again, we all have problems and we all sin.

Matthew 7:5- Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Through righteousness alone can we discern the sins of others allowing us to help a brother in need."
Not cogent.
Come on now, I live in the bible belt. I have on more then one occasion had Christians come to my door and tell me to repent or I'm going to hell.
Doesn't matter. I'm not a Christian here, and I haven't done that.
But they do.
Seems like their problem.
Please refer above.
None of that mentions that judgment is sin.
You can claim to be whatever you want. Live by what you claim to be.
You're the only one here who seems to have a problem with people being who they are.
I really hope you know by now. I assume we are on the same page.
Christians aren't perfect. They don't think of themselves as such, but it seems that you expect them to be.
Nope.

Don't claim to be something and act completely contrary to what you claim. It is rather simple.
Your conclusion with regard to the commandments and war is WRONG. Christians can be involved in war and not break that commandment.

I know how you feel about the fundigelicals. But you're rather sounding just like them here. All I'm asking is that your condemnation be based on a real charge -- not something you've trumped up on a misunderstanding.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Reconciliation based on being covered in blood. Every tiny sin is no different from hitler in his eyes. It is only by being coverd in the blood of christ that god passes-over you.

So while I don't say you are wrong, it would be wrong to say I'm wrong. :yes:
Nope. Substitutionary atonement is widely-accepted, but is not the best construction of soteriology. Reconciliation is not effected through blood. It is effected by God becoming completely one of us.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
Nope. Substitutionary atonement is widely-accepted, but is not the best construction of soteriology. Reconciliation is not effected through blood. It is effected by God becoming completely one of us.

LOL, so, instead of Jesus substituting for us, god becomes a sinner?
 

nightwolf

Member
Not cogent.

Of course not. It is from the bible and not wikipedia. You take the same stance as many....Nuff said.

Don't get me wrong, there are good Christians and they do strive to live by the bible. There is nothing wrong with that.

But when you judge and prescribe death (even without war) you sin. I didn't make the rules, but you are supposed to follow them. Don't call me out about hell and not expect the same in return. What goes around comes around. The way it is.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
LOL, so, instead of Jesus substituting for us, god becomes a sinner?
YES!! Consider the parable of the leaven: (paraphrased) The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman mixed into a lump of dough, until the whole lump was infused with leaven.

In that time and culture, leaven wasn't yeast. It was poison. The message of the parable is that we could not clean ourselves up enough to reconcile ourselves to God, so God became dirty (infused with poison) to reconcile us.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
May I ask how exactly you pointed out to this person that his religion supposedly says not to kill? There are ways to say that which do not come across as judging, and there are others that do.

May I also ask if you feel you are in a position to be the authority on what someone else's religion teaches? As others have pointed out, religions are non-homogenous entities. Each person effectively is a religion of one, their understanding of their religion (even one with seemingly rigid or dogmatic precepts), is going through their personal filters. I tend to be very cautious in presuming to speak for someone else's path, not just because I'm often going to be wrong, but because my presumptuousness can come across as judgmental to the listener.

On the other hand, I do sympathize with what you're saying here. I feel that religion done right is one's way of life. This does not seem to be the case for most in my culture. I think it's important to understand that before expecting someone to behave as if their religion is their way of life. In many cases, it isn't. Should it be? That is not my place to say.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course not. It is from the bible and not wikipedia. You take the same stance as many....Nuff said.
Doesn't matter where it's from. It simply doesn't speak to the particular issue.
Don't get me wrong, there are good Christians and they do strive to live by the bible. There is nothing wrong with that.
I'd rather see Christians live by good morals and ethics, rather than "by the bible."
But when you judge and prescribe death (even without war) you sin.
I disagree. I think human euthanasia is one of the most humane things we could do for terminally ill people who are suffering.
I didn't make the rules, but you are supposed to follow them.
The "rule" says "murder" -- not "kill."
Don't call me out about hell and not expect the same in return.
Again: I didn't do that.

I basically agree with you: hypocrisy is a bad thing. I simply think you're wrong where war is concerned, because that's patently not what the commandment says.
 

nightwolf

Member
May I ask how exactly you pointed out to this person that his religion supposedly says not to kill? There are ways to say that which do not come across as judging, and there are others that do.

I just asked him if he is really supposed to say such things.

May I also ask if you feel you are in a position to be the authority on what someone else's religion teaches? As others have pointed out, religions are non-homogenous entities. Each person effectively is a religion of one, their understanding of their religion (even one with seemingly rigid or dogmatic precepts), is going through their personal filters. I tend to be very cautious in presuming to speak for someone else's path, not just because I'm often going to be wrong, but because my presumptuousness can come across as judgmental to the listener.

I agree with you.

I have studied the bible in depth. The real problem is the area I live in. We live in a church dictatorship in this area. The churches make all the rules and impose on the freedoms of others.

For instance, drinking just got passed by vote in this area. Bar owners and liquor store owners are mysteriously being thrown in jail and no one knows why. The people suspect the church.

An adult store was put in the area and the churches came together to fight it, it went up anyhow. The owner was later arrested and no one knows why. The people suspect the church.

Many things go that way here. I believe in freedom and I believe in the right to choose. I don't drink anymore, however, if you want to get plastered on a Friday night, go right ahead, I support your right to do so.

We as a town are judged and fed what is right and wrong by the churches in this town. Can you understand a bit of my hostility? Don't tell me how to live and then go against what you preach, I have to live by your standards.

On the other hand, I do sympathize with what you're saying here. I feel that religion done right is one's way of life. This does not seem to be the case for most in my culture. I think it's important to understand that before expecting someone to behave as if their religion is their way of life. In many cases, it isn't. Should it be? That is not my place to say.

My lack of proper religion defines me. It is engraved in my being and walks with me every day. I am a walking testimony for my belief system, it very much is a way of life for me.
 
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nightwolf

Member
I basically agree with you: hypocrisy is a bad thing. I simply think you're wrong where war is concerned, because that's patently not what the commandment says.

Glad we agree and yes it is.

Let's go about this from another angle.

I know a Christian woman who was married to a man that started beating her. She was kicked from her church when she got a divorce. That is wrong.

There are many examples I could give.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Glad we agree and yes it is.

Let's go about this from another angle.

I know a Christian woman who was married to a man that started beating her. She was kicked from her church when she got a divorce. That is wrong.

There are many examples I could give.
Well, duh! We have a church here in town where a friend of mine attended. Her husband was abusing her. She went to the pastor, who told her God wanted her to stay in the marriage to suffer for Jesus. Deplorable.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
The other day I was having a discussion. It was made clear the person I was talking to was a Christian. In the conversation we talked about war and the death war causes.

I was in the position of hating war and thinking it is pointless while the Christian was telling me he was for it. I pointed out that his religion says he shouldn't kill. Then all the sudden I was judging him and that was a no no.

I am under the impression that if you claim to follow a religion you are a representative of that religion. You are indeed accountable for what you might say that might contradict what your religion teaches.

I took my problem to a forum and the forum told me I was holding him to a higher standard then I hold myself, this made sense. This got me exploring the Christian faith. People kept responding to my post and finally got me to the point where I realized it was something I could never be.

The mantra was "we all sin". So basically, we can say and do what we want because we all sin anyways and it really doesn't matter. I can't be any part of that and I walked away.

What is the problem with living by what your religion teaches and being accountable when you don't? I heard a lot of "you should not judge" and "how dare you" but really, why is holding you to a standard a wrong thing when you claim to follow a religion and don't even hold yourself to the same standard?

Just curious.

There are mountains of passages in Scripture that do not adhere to your simplified way of defining Christianity. In some ways we can be forgiven for all of our sins but in many other ways we will still be held accountable. Both teachings have merit.

No one can say they believe in Jesus as their savior, ask for forgiveness, and then proceed to sin with impunity. No one.

And even if one asks for forgiveness a thousand times, yet continues on a path of habitual transgressions, those sins may be forgiven in one sense but they still will have to be atoned for in another, especially after death.

God is not one to be mocked. And a haughty disposition of "Jesus has saved me and forgiven me and no matter what I do I am going to heaven when I die" will not be pleasing to our Lord.

Finally, once a Christian, you can bet they have assumed a higher level of judgment upon their actions. Their sin is greater than the sin of a pagan (all other things considered equal). That is why Catholic priests are in far more grave danger of their violations, and their sentences longer (all other things being equal).
 

nightwolf

Member
There are mountains of passages in Scripture that do not adhere to your simplified way of defining Christianity. In some ways we can be forgiven for all of our sins but in many other ways we will still be held accountable. Both teachings have merit.

No one can say they believe in Jesus as their savior, ask for forgiveness, and then proceed to sin with impunity. No one.

And even if one asks for forgiveness a thousand times, yet continues on a path of habitual transgressions, those sins may be forgiven in one sense but they still will have to be atoned for in another, especially after death.

God is not one to be mocked. And a haughty disposition of "Jesus has saved me and forgiven me and no matter what I do I am going to heaven when I die" will not be pleasing to our Lord.

Finally, once a Christian, you can bet they have assumed a higher level of judgment upon their actions. Their sin is greater than the sin of a pagan (all other things considered equal). That is why Catholic priests are in far more grave danger of their violations, and their sentences longer (all other things being equal).

And that creates this problem.

There are a thousand different ways the bible can ok what you do. But there is only one thing you have to judge people by.

So in short, there is no wrong a Christian can do. Because there is a verse somewhere that covers this sin of or that sin. But I am going to hell.

So why even be a Christian? A title where you get to do anything you want and run in gangs and run peoples lives and cast judgement every which way.
 
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