How to tell if something is "Designed"

Monk Of Reason · Sep 8, 2014

A popular argument for Intelligent Design advocates is this appeal that the universe "seems to be designed".

However in conversations with people who are advocates they don't seem to know how to identify "design" or the process in which we go about finding if something is designed.

"How do we determine if something is "designed"?"
1) It has nothing to do with complexity.
2) It has to do with finding patterns or shapes not found in nature.

By definition something found in nature is not "designed".

Ouroboros · Sep 8, 2014

Monk Of Reason said:
By definition something found in nature is not "designed".

Exactly.

A "design" can be recognized against the background at which it stands.

A watch found on a beach is found to be designed. How? Because the beach wasn't. If the beach was designed as a watch, then how can we recognize the watch? Essentially the argument from design is begging the question. How can we tell the world is designed based on comparison with actual designs by humans? And if God is all that great and powerful, wouldn't his designs be so complex that we wouldn't be able to recognize them as designed anyway? For instance, take a photo of a CPU circuitry and show it to some desolate tribe in the jungle. Will they say "Oh, look at that, it looks just like my wife's braiding, so it must be designed!" Or will they say, "What the heck is that? I have no clue what it is."

Also, the universe is extremely chaotic. Stars, planets collide. Even galaxies collide. Explode. Collapse. It's not organized. It's a mess. It's a beautiful mess, but a mess it still is.

Amechania · Sep 8, 2014

I think the idea of design is all based on the iperceptionn of order in a universe governed by immutable laws and more or less adhering to logic. This seems arranged although perhaps only to us as we happen too be products of that universe.

Skwim · Sep 8, 2014

Monk Of Reason said:
A popular argument for Intelligent Design advocates is this appeal that the universe "seems to be designed".

However in conversations with people who are advocates they don't seem to know how to identify "design" or the process in which we go about finding if something is designed.

"How do we determine if something is "designed"?"
1) It has nothing to do with complexity.
2) It has to do with finding patterns or shapes not found in nature.

By definition something found in nature is not "designed".

Actually, just about everything in nature can be said to be designed: usually exhibiting the organization or structure of formal elements. Crystals assume their design through various ionic or covalent bondings among molecules. The design of a flower blossom is a result of DNA instructions, and the design of large scale structures, such as sand dunes or the ripples in a river bed result from the repetition of various physical forces. The ID camp, however, never concerns itself with such designs, but focuses almost exclusively on the design of humans by some sentient designer: god; not by offering any credible evidence for such a "designer" and his efforts, but by attempting to tear down evolution, and win by default. E̶v̶o̶l̶u̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ = god is the designer. And if it wasn't for their attempt to slip such nonsense into public school science classes, who would care?* Let them wallow in their self-induced illusion.

* Although, I have to say, it's sometimes fun to argue with them.

Monk Of Reason · Sep 8, 2014

Skwim said:
Actually, just about everything in nature can be said to be designed: usually exhibiting the organization or structure of formal elements. Crystals assume their design through various ionic or covalent bondings among molecules. The design of a flower blossom is a result of DNA instructions, and the design of large scale structures, such as sand dunes or the ripples in a river bed result from the repetition of various physical forces. The ID camp, however, never concerns itself with such designs, but focuses almost exclusively on the design of humans by some sentient designer: god; not by offering any credible evidence for such a "designer" and his efforts, but by attempting to tear down evolution, and win by default. E̶v̶o̶l̶u̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ = god is the designer. And if it wasn't for their attempt to slip such nonsense into public school science classes, who would care?* Let them wallow in their self-induced illusion.

* Although, I have to say, it's sometimes fun to argue with them.

I should have used the term "intelligently designed". A flower is not an example of "intelligent design" but a Watch would be.

idav · Sep 8, 2014

Monk Of Reason said:
By definition something found in nature is not "designed".

Something is designed when it comes about due to intent. At some point life gained intent or always had it.

Skwim · Sep 8, 2014

idav said:
Something is designed when it comes about due to intent. At some point life gained intent or always had it.

Curious as to the nature of this "intent of life." Care to fill us in?

idav · Sep 8, 2014

Skwim said:
Curious as to the nature of this "intent of life." Care to fill us in?

Life appears to have intent. At some point intent rose from simple cause and effect. When A intends Z then Z would need to be a known. Choice and knowledge are required of intent and are not quite possible without intelligence. So it seems to me that intelligence would have a hard time creating something intelligent. Designed can count and lacking any bit of knowledge would make it an unintelligent design.

Skwim · Sep 8, 2014

idav said:
Life appears to have intent. At some point intent rose from simple cause and effect.

So, in the beginning there was only cause and effect, which, what, at some point spawned an intelligence? Interesting concept.

When A intends Z then Z would need to be a known.

"Known" as in a possibility or as in an inevitability?

Choice and knowledge are required of intent and are not quite possible without intelligence. So it seems to me that intelligence would have a hard time creating something intelligent. Designed can count and lacking any bit of knowledge would make it an unintelligent design.

So this intelligence is what, god?

idav · Sep 8, 2014

Skwim said:
So, in the beginning there was only cause and effect, which, what, at some point spawned an intelligence? Interesting concept.

Potential for intelligence was there so I don't see why not.

"Known" as in a possibility or as in an inevitability?

So this intelligence is what, god?

Yes that a known is necessarily inevitable.

God would be the source of intelligence and existing.

SkepticThinker · Sep 8, 2014

Ouroboros said:
Exactly.

A "design" can be recognized against the background at which it stands.

A watch found on a beach is found to be designed. How? Because the beach wasn't. If the beach was designed as a watch, then how can we recognize the watch? Essentially the argument from design is begging the question. How can we tell the world is designed based on comparison with actual designs by humans? And if God is all that great and powerful, wouldn't his designs be so complex that we wouldn't be able to recognize them as designed anyway? For instance, take a photo of a CPU circuitry and show it to some desolate tribe in the jungle. Will they say "Oh, look at that, it looks just like my wife's braiding, so it must be designed!" Or will they say, "What the heck is that? I have no clue what it is."

Also, the universe is extremely chaotic. Stars, planets collide. Even galaxies collide. Explode. Collapse. It's not organized. It's a mess. It's a beautiful mess, but a mess it still is.

This is basically the answer I was going to give. Although this is probably more eloquent than mine would have been.

sun rise · Sep 8, 2014

Ouroboros said:
Exactly.

A "design" can be recognized against the background at which it stands.

A watch found on a beach is found to be designed. How? Because the beach wasn't. If the beach was designed as a watch, then how can we recognize the watch? Essentially the argument from design is begging the question. How can we tell the world is designed based on comparison with actual designs by humans? And if God is all that great and powerful, wouldn't his designs be so complex that we wouldn't be able to recognize them as designed anyway? For instance, take a photo of a CPU circuitry and show it to some desolate tribe in the jungle. Will they say "Oh, look at that, it looks just like my wife's braiding, so it must be designed!" Or will they say, "What the heck is that? I have no clue what it is."

Also, the universe is extremely chaotic. Stars, planets collide. Even galaxies collide. Explode. Collapse. It's not organized. It's a mess. It's a beautiful mess, but a mess it still is.

I don't want to get into a futile discussion about the elegance of the universe being a product of design, but what you've described is not design but implementation. As an old software developer, I saw some wonderful designs that were badly implemented. An elegant "intelligent" design does not mean an elegant "intelligent" implementation

The Neo Nerd · Sep 8, 2014

I think PZ Myers blows the complexity argument out of the water when he points out that designed items show simplicity.

He uses a wall as an example. A drift wood wall is very complex with a lot of extraneous parts that are not needed. A brick wall being designed is very simple with only the parts needed to make it function.

Nature is complex, which they love to point out. An "intelligent" designer would not have made it so.

Ouroboros · Sep 8, 2014

SkepticThinker said:
This is basically the answer I was going to give. Although this is probably more eloquent than mine would have been.

:bow:

Ouroboros · Sep 8, 2014

sunrise123 said:
I don't want to get into a futile discussion about the elegance of the universe being a product of design, but what you've described is not design but implementation. As an old software developer, I saw some wonderful designs that were badly implemented. An elegant "intelligent" design does not mean an elegant "intelligent" implementation

It's a good point, but I think when religious people are arguing that the universe was "designed" they're really referring to its implementation.

I'm an old software guy myself (and hardware). I've also seen bad designs resulting in very nice implementations. Designing by shooting from the hip, basically. Very Agile in a sense. LOL!

Reptillian · Sep 8, 2014

Design has much to do with purpose. I think you'd have to answer the question, "What is the purpose of the universe?" if you're asserting that it was created.

Ouroboros · Sep 8, 2014

Quaxotic said:
Nature is complex, which they love to point out. An "intelligent" designer would not have made it so.

Yup.

The "intelligent" part of the "design" (or implementation) of the universe is kind'a lacking.

I'm currently studying nutrition, and I didn't know that we can easily live without several organs, except the liver. There's a lot of redundancy in our biological system. More like a spaghetti code program. (wink wink to sunrise)

Ouroboros · Sep 8, 2014

Reptillian said:
Design has much to do with purpose. I think you'd have to answer the question, "What is the purpose of the universe?" if you're asserting that it was created.

I realized something about purpose or finding purpose in life recently. If you had an eternal life, you wouldn't be forced to find any purpose at all. You can do whatever you want and just not care. The terminal factor of life is the reason why we even try to find a reason and purpose for what we're doing. Some eternal god might not find purpose or meaning in anything he/she/it does.

Skwim · Sep 8, 2014

idav said:
Potential for intelligence was there so I don't see why not.

What kind of poential?

Bunyip · Sep 8, 2014

Monk Of Reason said:
A popular argument for Intelligent Design advocates is this appeal that the universe "seems to be designed".

However in conversations with people who are advocates they don't seem to know how to identify "design" or the process in which we go about finding if something is designed.

"How do we determine if something is "designed"?"
1) It has nothing to do with complexity.
2) It has to do with finding patterns or shapes not found in nature.

By definition something found in nature is not "designed".

This is why ID does not even qualify as a hypothesis, let alone a theory. There is no test or design, ID proponants have never proposed one.

How to tell if something is "Designed"

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