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Matthew 16:17-19
- Thread starter vskipper
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Reptillian
Hamburgler Extraordinaire
I imagine there's something lost in translation during this verse. Anyone here know ancient Greek?
Two points here:
1) Why Be Catholic he covers the translation matter.
2) I know I didnt specify but really looking for a Christian perspective on this matter.
1) Why Be Catholic he covers the translation matter.
2) I know I didnt specify but really looking for a Christian perspective on this matter.
Alt Thinker
Older than the hills
Here is some interesting commentary on Matthew 16:17-20. The conclusion, shown below, is that Matthew definitely intended to say that Peter is the rock-foundation of the church but that this was not intended as justification for a papacy. This conclusion derives from analysis of the Greek used. I am not going to try to present the arguments. Follow the link if you are interested.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
This verse said nothing about passing on that authority.The Catholic church frequently argues that this is proof of the papacy and establishment of the Catholic church. But, I know that there are other arguments. So, I eagerly wait to hear them.
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This Christ was the one called in ancient prophecy a stone that the builders would reject. (Ps. 118:22; Luke 20:17) With such prophecies in mind, Jesus revealed that Jehovah would establish a congregation on the very stone, or rock-mass, that Peter had just identified.
Was Peter the First Pope?
To prove that the church is founded on Peter, Catholics have long pointed to Jesus words recorded at Matthew 16:18: You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation. In fact, those words are inscribed in Latin under the dome of St. Peters Basilica in Rome.
Augustine, a revered Church Father, at one time held that the congregation was built on Peter. However, toward the end of his life, he changed his view of what Jesus words meant. In a work known as Retractations, Augustine argued that it was Jesus on whom the church, that is the Christian congregation, was built, not Peter.*
True, the apostle Peter features prominently in the Gospels. Jesus singled out three of his apostlesJohn, James, and Peterto be present with him on a few special occasions. (Mark 5:37, 38; 9:2; 14:33) Jesus entrusted Peter with the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, which Peter used to open up the way to the Kingdomfirst to the Jews and proselytes, then to the Samaritans, and finally to the Gentiles. (Matthew 16:19; Acts 2:5, 41; 8:14-17; 10:45) In accord with his outgoing personality, Peter at times served as spokesman for the apostles as a whole. (Acts 1:15; 2:14) But do these facts make Peter head of the early congregation?
The apostle Paul did write that Peter was entrusted with an apostleship to those who are circumcised. (Galatians 2:8) However, the context of Pauls words shows that he was not saying that Peter directed the congregation. Pauls comments were about Peters role in preaching to the Jews.
Although Peter was given great responsibility, nowhere in the Bible do we find him claiming to be the head of the congregation and, as such, making decisions for the disciples as a group. In his letter, he called himself an apostle and an older mannothing more.1 Peter 1:1; 5:1.
Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Was Peter the First Pope?
To prove that the church is founded on Peter, Catholics have long pointed to Jesus words recorded at Matthew 16:18: You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation. In fact, those words are inscribed in Latin under the dome of St. Peters Basilica in Rome.
Augustine, a revered Church Father, at one time held that the congregation was built on Peter. However, toward the end of his life, he changed his view of what Jesus words meant. In a work known as Retractations, Augustine argued that it was Jesus on whom the church, that is the Christian congregation, was built, not Peter.*
True, the apostle Peter features prominently in the Gospels. Jesus singled out three of his apostlesJohn, James, and Peterto be present with him on a few special occasions. (Mark 5:37, 38; 9:2; 14:33) Jesus entrusted Peter with the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, which Peter used to open up the way to the Kingdomfirst to the Jews and proselytes, then to the Samaritans, and finally to the Gentiles. (Matthew 16:19; Acts 2:5, 41; 8:14-17; 10:45) In accord with his outgoing personality, Peter at times served as spokesman for the apostles as a whole. (Acts 1:15; 2:14) But do these facts make Peter head of the early congregation?
The apostle Paul did write that Peter was entrusted with an apostleship to those who are circumcised. (Galatians 2:8) However, the context of Pauls words shows that he was not saying that Peter directed the congregation. Pauls comments were about Peters role in preaching to the Jews.
Although Peter was given great responsibility, nowhere in the Bible do we find him claiming to be the head of the congregation and, as such, making decisions for the disciples as a group. In his letter, he called himself an apostle and an older mannothing more.1 Peter 1:1; 5:1.
Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
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Was Peter the rock on which the church was built?
Matt. 16:18, JB: I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. (Notice in the context [Mt 16 vss. 13, 20] that the discussion centers on the identity of Jesus.)
Whom did the apostles Peter and Paul understand to be the rock, the cornerstone?
Acts 4:8-11, JB: Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, addressed them, Rulers of the people, and elders! . . . it was by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the one you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by this name and by no other that this man is able to stand up perfectly healthy, here in your presence, today. This is the stone rejected by you the builders, but which has proved to be the keystone [cornerstone, NAB].
1 Pet. 2:4-8, JB: Set yourselves close to him [the Lord Jesus Christ] so that you too . . . may be living stones making a spiritual house. As scripture says: See how I lay in Zion a precious cornerstone that I have chosen and the man who rests his trust on it will not be disappointed. That means that for you who are believers, it is precious; but for unbelievers, the stone rejected by the builders has proved to be the keystone, a stone to stumble over, a rock to bring men down.
Eph. 2:20, JB: You are part of a building that has the apostles and prophets for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone.
What was the belief of Augustine (who was viewed as a saint by the Catholic Church)?
In this same period of my priesthood, I also wrote a book against a letter of Donatus . . . In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: On him as on a rock the Church was built. . . . But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven. For, Thou art Peter and not Thou art the rock was said to him. But the rock was Christ, in confessing whom as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter.The Fathers of the ChurchSaint Augustine, the Retractations (Washington, D.C.; 1968), translated by Mary I. Bogan, Book I, p. 90.
Did the other apostles view Peter as having primacy among them?
Luke 22:24-26, JB: A dispute arose also between them [the apostles] about which should be reckoned the greatest, but he said to them, Among pagans it is the kings who lord it over them, and those who have authority over them are given the title Benefactor. This must not happen with you. (If Peter were the rock, would there have been any question as to which one of them should be reckoned the greatest?)
Since Jesus Christ, the head of the congregation, is alive, does he need successors?
Heb. 7:23-25, JB: Then there used to be a great number of those other priests [in Israel], because death put an end to each one of them; but this one [Jesus Christ], because he remains for ever, can never lose his priesthood. It follows, then, that his power to save is utterly certain, since he is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.
Rom. 6:9, JB: Christ, as we know, having been raised from the dead will never die again.
Eph. 5:23, JB: Christ is head of the Church.
Apostolic Succession — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Matt. 16:18, JB: I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. (Notice in the context [Mt 16 vss. 13, 20] that the discussion centers on the identity of Jesus.)
Whom did the apostles Peter and Paul understand to be the rock, the cornerstone?
Acts 4:8-11, JB: Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, addressed them, Rulers of the people, and elders! . . . it was by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the one you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by this name and by no other that this man is able to stand up perfectly healthy, here in your presence, today. This is the stone rejected by you the builders, but which has proved to be the keystone [cornerstone, NAB].
1 Pet. 2:4-8, JB: Set yourselves close to him [the Lord Jesus Christ] so that you too . . . may be living stones making a spiritual house. As scripture says: See how I lay in Zion a precious cornerstone that I have chosen and the man who rests his trust on it will not be disappointed. That means that for you who are believers, it is precious; but for unbelievers, the stone rejected by the builders has proved to be the keystone, a stone to stumble over, a rock to bring men down.
Eph. 2:20, JB: You are part of a building that has the apostles and prophets for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone.
What was the belief of Augustine (who was viewed as a saint by the Catholic Church)?
In this same period of my priesthood, I also wrote a book against a letter of Donatus . . . In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: On him as on a rock the Church was built. . . . But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven. For, Thou art Peter and not Thou art the rock was said to him. But the rock was Christ, in confessing whom as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter.The Fathers of the ChurchSaint Augustine, the Retractations (Washington, D.C.; 1968), translated by Mary I. Bogan, Book I, p. 90.
Did the other apostles view Peter as having primacy among them?
Luke 22:24-26, JB: A dispute arose also between them [the apostles] about which should be reckoned the greatest, but he said to them, Among pagans it is the kings who lord it over them, and those who have authority over them are given the title Benefactor. This must not happen with you. (If Peter were the rock, would there have been any question as to which one of them should be reckoned the greatest?)
Since Jesus Christ, the head of the congregation, is alive, does he need successors?
Heb. 7:23-25, JB: Then there used to be a great number of those other priests [in Israel], because death put an end to each one of them; but this one [Jesus Christ], because he remains for ever, can never lose his priesthood. It follows, then, that his power to save is utterly certain, since he is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.
Rom. 6:9, JB: Christ, as we know, having been raised from the dead will never die again.
Eph. 5:23, JB: Christ is head of the Church.
Apostolic Succession — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
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The Christian Congregation of God. Prior to the rejection of the Jewish nation and the end of its position as the congregation of God, Jesus Christ identified himself as the rock-mass upon which he would build what he termed my congregation. (Mt 16:18) This is as Peter, to whom he spoke, understood matters, for the apostle later identified Jesus as the figurative stone that was rejected by men but was chosen, precious, with God and as the foundation cornerstone on which a person could rest his faith without disappointment. (1Pe 2:4-6; Ps 118:22; Isa 28:16) Paul also definitely identified Jesus Christ as the foundation upon which the Christian congregation is built.
Congregation — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Congregation — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
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ROCK-MASS
This translates the Greek word pe′tra (feminine gender), which designates a mass of rock (Mt 7:24, 25; 27:51, 60; Lu 6:48; 8:6, 13; Re 6:15, 16) and therefore differs from pe′tros (masculine gender and employed as a proper name, Peter), meaning piece of rock. This distinction makes it clear that, when saying to Peter, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, Jesus was not using synonymous terms. (Mt 16:18) Even in the Aramaic (Syriac) version the distinction is apparent from a difference in the gender of the particle preceding the word kiʼphaʼ, used for both Peter and rock. The masculine verbal pronoun (hu) precedes Peter, but rock is preceded by the feminine demonstrative adjective (hadeʼ.
That the apostles did not understand Jesus statement to signify that Peter was the rock-mass is evident from the fact that they later disputed about who seemed to be the greatest among them. (Mr 9:33-35; Lu 22:24-26) There would have been no basis for such disputing had Peter been given the primacy as the rock-mass on which the congregation was to be built. The Scriptures clearly show that as foundation stones, all the apostles are equal. All of them, including Peter, rest upon Christ Jesus as the foundation cornerstone. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 21:2, 9-14) Peter himself identified the rock-mass (pe′tra) on which the congregation is built as being Christ Jesus. (1Pe 2:4-8) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote: For they [the Israelites] used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ. (1Co 10:4) On at least two occasions and in two different locations the Israelites received a miraculous provision of water from a rock-mass. (Ex 17:5-7; Nu 20:1-11) Therefore, the rock-mass as a source of water, in effect, followed them. The rock-mass itself was evidently a pictorial, or symbolic, type of Christ Jesus, who said to the Jews: If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.Joh 7:37.
It is also of interest that Augustine (354-430 C.E.), usually referred to as Saint Augustine, at one time believed that Peter was the rock-mass but later changed his view. Langes Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (Mt 16:18, ftn, p. 296) quotes Augustine as saying: The rock is not so named from Peter, but Peter from the rock (non enim a Petro petra, sed Petrus a petra), even as Christ is not so called after the Christian, but the Christian after Christ. For the reason why the Lord says, On this rock I will build my church, is that Peter had said: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. On this rock, which thou hast confessed, says he, I will build my church. For Christ was the rock (petra enim erat Christus), upon which also Peter himself was built; for other foundation can no man lay, than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Translated and edited by P. Schaff, 1976.
Rock-mass — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
This translates the Greek word pe′tra (feminine gender), which designates a mass of rock (Mt 7:24, 25; 27:51, 60; Lu 6:48; 8:6, 13; Re 6:15, 16) and therefore differs from pe′tros (masculine gender and employed as a proper name, Peter), meaning piece of rock. This distinction makes it clear that, when saying to Peter, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, Jesus was not using synonymous terms. (Mt 16:18) Even in the Aramaic (Syriac) version the distinction is apparent from a difference in the gender of the particle preceding the word kiʼphaʼ, used for both Peter and rock. The masculine verbal pronoun (hu) precedes Peter, but rock is preceded by the feminine demonstrative adjective (hadeʼ
.That the apostles did not understand Jesus statement to signify that Peter was the rock-mass is evident from the fact that they later disputed about who seemed to be the greatest among them. (Mr 9:33-35; Lu 22:24-26) There would have been no basis for such disputing had Peter been given the primacy as the rock-mass on which the congregation was to be built. The Scriptures clearly show that as foundation stones, all the apostles are equal. All of them, including Peter, rest upon Christ Jesus as the foundation cornerstone. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 21:2, 9-14) Peter himself identified the rock-mass (pe′tra) on which the congregation is built as being Christ Jesus. (1Pe 2:4-8) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote: For they [the Israelites] used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ. (1Co 10:4) On at least two occasions and in two different locations the Israelites received a miraculous provision of water from a rock-mass. (Ex 17:5-7; Nu 20:1-11) Therefore, the rock-mass as a source of water, in effect, followed them. The rock-mass itself was evidently a pictorial, or symbolic, type of Christ Jesus, who said to the Jews: If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.Joh 7:37.
It is also of interest that Augustine (354-430 C.E.), usually referred to as Saint Augustine, at one time believed that Peter was the rock-mass but later changed his view. Langes Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (Mt 16:18, ftn, p. 296) quotes Augustine as saying: The rock is not so named from Peter, but Peter from the rock (non enim a Petro petra, sed Petrus a petra), even as Christ is not so called after the Christian, but the Christian after Christ. For the reason why the Lord says, On this rock I will build my church, is that Peter had said: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. On this rock, which thou hast confessed, says he, I will build my church. For Christ was the rock (petra enim erat Christus), upon which also Peter himself was built; for other foundation can no man lay, than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Translated and edited by P. Schaff, 1976.
Rock-mass — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
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Is the Pope “Saint Peter’s Successor”? - The Watchtower—2011
Jesus’ discussion with Peter centered on identifying the Christ and his role, not on the role that Peter would play. (Matthew 16:13-17) Peter himself later stated that Jesus was the rock upon which the congregation was built. (1 Peter 2:4-8) The apostle Paul confirmed that Jesus, not Peter, was “the foundation cornerstone” of the Christian congregation.—Ephesians 2:20.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011571#h=25:0-25:371
Jesus’ discussion with Peter centered on identifying the Christ and his role, not on the role that Peter would play. (Matthew 16:13-17) Peter himself later stated that Jesus was the rock upon which the congregation was built. (1 Peter 2:4-8) The apostle Paul confirmed that Jesus, not Peter, was “the foundation cornerstone” of the Christian congregation.—Ephesians 2:20.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011571#h=25:0-25:371
I notice two things in these replies.
1) a general misunderstanding of the papacy. The papacy is not a replacement of Jesus nor claimed to be. Rather it is believed to be representative. the church (catholic church) is believed to be the fulfillment of gods kingdom on earth. [not saying its true, just explaining]
2) a complete lack of address to the part where Jesus says, whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven & whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.
1) a general misunderstanding of the papacy. The papacy is not a replacement of Jesus nor claimed to be. Rather it is believed to be representative. the church (catholic church) is believed to be the fulfillment of gods kingdom on earth. [not saying its true, just explaining]
2) a complete lack of address to the part where Jesus says, whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven & whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.
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#1.The papacy should not even exist.It goes against all teachings in the holy scriptures.It never existed in Jesus time or after when the disciples were spreading the truth.
#2.Then he bestowed on Peter some very important privileges in that congregation. He did not give Peter primacy over the other apostles, as some have assumed, but he gave him responsibilities. He gave Peter “the keys of the kingdom.” (Matt. 16:19) It would be Peter’s privilege to open the hope of entering God’s Kingdom to three different fields of mankind—first to the Jews, then to the Samaritans, and finally to the Gentiles, or non-Jews.
What were “the keys” entrusted to Peter?
Matt. 16:19, JB: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven.”
In Revelation, Jesus referred to a symbolic key used by himself to open up privileges and opportunities to humans
Rev. 3:7, 8, JB: “Here is the message of the holy and faithful one who has the key of David, so that when he opens, nobody can close, and when he closes, nobody can open: . . . I have opened in front of you a door that nobody will be able to close.”
Peter used “keys” entrusted to him to open up (to Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles) the opportunity to receive God’s spirit with a view to their entering the heavenly Kingdom
Acts 2:14-39, JB: “Peter stood up with the Eleven and addressed them in a loud voice: ‘Men of Judaea, and all you who live in Jerusalem . . . God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ.’ Hearing this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the apostles, ‘What must we do, brothers?’ ‘You must repent,’ Peter answered ‘and every one of you must be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God will call to himself.’”
Acts 8:14-17, JB: “When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, and they went down there, and prayed for the Samaritans to receive the Holy Spirit, for as yet he had not come down on any of them: they had only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” (Ac 8 Verse 20 indicates that Peter was the one taking the lead on this occasion.)
Acts 10:24-48, JB: “They reached Caesarea the following day, and Cornelius [an uncircumcised Gentile] was waiting for them. . . . Peter addressed them . . . While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit came down on all the listeners.”
Did heaven wait on Peter to make decisions and then follow his lead?
Acts 2:4, 14, JB: “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak foreign languages as the Spirit gave them the gift of speech. . . . Then [after Christ, the head of the congregation, had stirred them up by means of the holy spirit] Peter stood up with the Eleven and addressed them.” (See Ac 2 verse 33.)
Acts 10:19, 20, JB: “The Spirit had to tell him [Peter], ‘Some men have come to see you. Hurry down, and do not hesitate about going back with them [to the home of the Gentile Cornelius]; it was I who told them to come.’”
Compare Matthew 18:18, 19.
Is Peter the judge as to who is worthy to enter the Kingdom?
2 Tim. 4:1, JB: “Christ Jesus . . . is to be judge of the living and the dead.”
2 Tim. 4:8, JB: “All there is to come now is the crown of righteousness reserved for me, which the Lord [Jesus Christ], the righteous judge, will give to me on that Day; and not only to me but to all those who have longed for his Appearing.”
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/1200270040/417/17
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
The Catholic church frequently argues that this is proof of the papacy and establishment of the Catholic church. But, I know that there are other arguments. So, I eagerly wait to hear them.
Jesus was speaking of himself as the 'rock'
It wasnt Peter who was the rock at all. To this even 'Saint' Augustine says The rock is not so named from Peter, but Peter from the rock (non enim a Petro petra, sed Petrus a petra), even as Christ is not so called after the Christian, but the Christian after Christ. For the reason why the Lord says, On this rock I will build my church, is that Peter had said: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. On this rock, which thou hast confessed, says he, I will build my church. For Christ was the rock (petra enim erat Christus), upon which also Peter himself was built; for other foundation can no man lay, than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Translated and edited by P.*Schaff, 1976.
I ask, how could anyone BUT Christ be the Rock of the Church???
If Peter was the foundation of the church, then surely we would be called Peterians, not Christians.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
I will not go over those verses which bible Student covered. Jesus. indeed, was the "Rock" that was rejected and was the "Corner-stone"(Head) of the Church(Body).
I want to show another faucet of why the papacy can not be that Church which Christ was the head.
Daniel prophesied concerning all the Empires which would arise and the setting up of the "kingdom of GOD"---to the very end of time. In Dan. 7:25, it was stated that with the break-up of that last world "Empire" a power would arise thinking to change GOD'S "times and laws".
Fast forward to 2Thess.2:3-4, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
It was the 'catholic church' that "fell away" and persecuted the true believers of GOD for 1260 years. Rev.2:4 confirms that departing (as Paul prophesied(Acts 20:28-30)), "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."
The "keys to the kingdom" is no mystery. Sin is what keeps one out of the Kingdom of GOD. Jesus said those who love HIM will be obedient to the instructions which point out Sinful actions/attitudes---the Decalogue. One is the Confess their sins--not to the pope/priests, but to Jesus Christ our "High Priest/ Advocate. Repent of those sins and surrender to the Will of the Father(GOD). Baptism of/with the HOLY Spirit follows and water baptism as well(as an outward expression of the inward commitment)--(the thief on the cross had no opportunity to do so).
"Go ye and teach"---"the whatsoever I have told you".
roger1440
I do stuff
The Catholic Church is right, the Church is founded on Peter, but the Catholic Church is right for the wrong reason. The foundation of the Church is based solely on Jeremiah 31:31-34. Without an understanding of Jeremiahs prophecy the message of the canonical Gospels cannot be understood. Read his prophecy for yourself, over and over. What is his message?The Catholic church frequently argues that this is proof of the papacy and establishment of the Catholic church. But, I know that there are other arguments. So, I eagerly wait to hear them.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
The foundations stones are the 12 apostles according to Revelation:
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb
And like all great buildings, the cornerstone is the first to be laid:
Ephesians 2:20 and you have been built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb
And like all great buildings, the cornerstone is the first to be laid:
Ephesians 2:20 and you have been built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by vskipper View Post
The Catholic church frequently argues that this is proof of the papacy and establishment of the Catholic church. But, I know that there are other arguments. So, I eagerly wait to hear them.
Roger, the Church that Jesus Christ is the "chief-cornerstone"/"Head" wasn't founded by Peter---But Jesus Christ as the Scriptures indicate.
Neither is Jeremiah 31:31-34 the "foundation, but it is the "Covenant" between the people of GOD and GOD.
The "Church" (the "called out"/"the elect"/HIS adopted Children) have covenanted with GOD to be HIS People by having the Decalogue permanently in their hearts and minds and that covenant was ratified by the Blood of Jesus Christ upon the cross. HE is the "cornerstone" that brings the Redemption and Restoration of all things together.
The Catholic church frequently argues that this is proof of the papacy and establishment of the Catholic church. But, I know that there are other arguments. So, I eagerly wait to hear them.
Roger, the Church that Jesus Christ is the "chief-cornerstone"/"Head" wasn't founded by Peter---But Jesus Christ as the Scriptures indicate.
Neither is Jeremiah 31:31-34 the "foundation, but it is the "Covenant" between the people of GOD and GOD.
The "Church" (the "called out"/"the elect"/HIS adopted Children) have covenanted with GOD to be HIS People by having the Decalogue permanently in their hearts and minds and that covenant was ratified by the Blood of Jesus Christ upon the cross. HE is the "cornerstone" that brings the Redemption and Restoration of all things together.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
HI Pegg, the KJV of those texts reads a little different.
Rev.21:1-2,12, 14, is speaking of the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven to the earth made new. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband...And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."
Eph.2:5-6, 19-22, Paul is expressing the fact that in Christ believers are
one household. "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
ALL have to be Born again---since GOD is not the respecter of persons---the building of our "temple residence" for the Holy Spirit is upon those "foundational teachings" which are rooted in Jesus Christ as expressed through the inspired teaching by the Prophets and the Apostles.
As residents of the Holy City which has it foundation the Apostolic teachings of "The what-so-ever I have told you" by Jesus Christ, One is able to enter into the City through the Gates of the Prophets inspired teachings/warnings.
The Church(Assembling together) wasn't built upon Peter, but he also, fed the Lord's sheep. It was built upon obedience to GOD as HIS Children. Even as Stephen attested, "the church in the wilderness". Acts 7:38
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roger1440
I do stuff
The foundation of the Church is not based on what was revealed but how it was revealed. This revelation comes directly from God not by man. The purpose of the canonical Gospels is to inaugurate the New Covenant. Peters revelation comes directly from God, it was not taught to him from his neighbor or a man his brother. This story in Matthews Gospel is a reference to Jeremiah 31:31-34. All three of the synoptic Gospels mention this revelation from God.
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenantwith the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
17 Jesus replied, Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:17-19)
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenantwith the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
17 Jesus replied, Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:17-19)
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Roger, The Purpose of the Gospels is stipulated by Luke 1:1-4, "Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."
Jeremiah 31:31-34, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Roger, the Covenant(New or OLD)did not have a human being as the basis for the relationship of GOD with Mankind. Covenant means "alliance" "pledge" (an agreement)between parties---GOD and Mankind.
GOD had said "I will be their GOD and they shall be my people". They had said "All that the lord GOD says , we will do." And GOD wrote the Decalogue upon the tablets of stone and they were placed in the "Ark of the Covenant".
That "Covenant" was made with the Nation of Israel.
The "New Covenant"(Decalogue) is written on the heart and in the minds of believing persons(individuals) of all nations.
Individuals are the Church(fitted together) (The "ekklesia"---the called out ones, assembly) Those are believers in JESUS CHRIST as the Redeemer and propitiation for sins---NOT Peter. And Peter acknowledges that fact. 1Pet.1:18-20.
Roger, Peter's reply(for all) was no different than had been acknowledged in Matt.14:33, (during the storm and walking on water), "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God".
It was upon the fact/knowledge that Jesus acknowledged that their sure belief in who HE was that HIS building of "believers"/"the called out ones---ekklesia" would be accomplished.
Yes, HIS teachings of the Principles(keys to the kingdom) of GOD'S Kingdom were being give not to just Peter, but the Twelve to be taught to all who would listen and believe/do.