What about "God is Spirit" don't you accept? Christians only (all variants)

Scuba Pete · Mar 27, 2006

John 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." NIV

So often as I read these forums, I get the idea that most who claim to be Christian are stuck IN THIS WORLD. They read and understand the scriptures from a physical perspective rather than a SPIRITUAL one.

Take our view of death. Which is worse: spiritual or physical death?

Why then do we ASSUME that the death Adam brought to our world was PHYSICAL?

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. NIV

and...

Luke 12:4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. NIV

alextemplet · Mar 27, 2006

I certainly agree that God is spirit, but I don't see how any Christian can seriously question this. I'm a bit confused as to your point, though. Have you actually encountered Christians who deny that God is spirit?

angellous_evangellous · Mar 27, 2006

The kind that denies the Trinity.

Scuba Pete · Mar 27, 2006

alextemplet said:
I certainly agree that God is spirit, but I don't see how any Christian can seriously question this. I'm a bit confused as to your point, though. Have you actually encountered Christians who deny that God is spirit?

Only by their lives and actions.

I brought out a specific instance. The death that is talked about in Genesis. Was it spiritual or physical? MOST people who claim to be Christians will say "physical", but Adam and Eve did not physically die after they sinned. However, they WERE seperated from God, which is spiritual DEATH.

How many Christians actually rely on the Spirit to be their "Counselor"?

EnhancedSpirit · Mar 27, 2006

[SIZE=+0]I think I see where you are going with this. But it's hard to put into words. Especially to people who have dissected the almighty into 3 separate 'beings'. Christianity is a good place to see this because of the many different Christian denominations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]I recently went to a Southern Baptist church. Not once during the whole service was God mentioned. All their focus was on the Christ. It was also a very gloomy place to be. They taught that we are to live in fear, and repeated over and over again how we were not worthy of the salvation Christ died for. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]This is just like a parent who continuously tells their child that they are 'worthless'. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Most religions only focus on one aspect of the Divinity, and forget about the other two. And most followers use their experience on earth to define the Divinity. This is completely inadequate.[/SIZE]

Scuba Pete · Mar 27, 2006

EnhancedSpirit said:
[SIZE=+0]I think I see where you are going with this. But it's hard to put into words. [/SIZE]

Amen, sister! It's tough to speak of spiritual things since we focus so much on the physical.

Often people think that you can't take certain passages literally, when in actuallity they are trying to force it into a physical truth instead of a spiritual one. Somehow we equate the spiritual as being less real than the physical. Take the Lord's supper. Many will declare up and down that this is PHYSICALLY Jesus' blood. It surely doesn't taste that way to me!

michel · Mar 27, 2006

NetDoc said:
Only by their lives and actions.

I brought out a specific instance. The death that is talked about in Genesis. Was it spiritual or physical? MOST people who claim to be Christians will say "physical", but Adam and Eve did not physically die after they sinned. However, they WERE seperated from God, which is spiritual DEATH.

How many Christians actually rely on the Spirit to be their "Counselor"?

Amen! That's the way I see it.

nutshell · Mar 27, 2006

NetDoc said:
So often as I read these forums, I get the idea that most who claim to be Christian are stuck IN THIS WORLD. They read and understand the scriptures from a physical perspective rather than a SPIRITUAL one.

Take our view of death. Which is worse: spiritual or physical death?

Why then do we ASSUME that the death Adam brought to our world was PHYSICAL?

NetDoc, perhaps you should be come a Mormon.

We believe that God is a physical being, however, it is the spiritual side of things that matter most. When you ask which is worse, there is no doubt about it - physical death is worse. The reason I say this is that Jesus' resurrection assures that ALL will overcome physical death.

What about Adam and Eve? They certainly brought physical death into the world, but they also brought spiritual death. This too we can overcome, but it is not a guarantee. We must accept Christ and follow his teachings to overcome spiritual death and it's when we overcome spiritual death that we are ready to return to God.

In summary: I believe this physical world is a reflection of the spiritual.

Scuba Pete · Mar 27, 2006

nutshell said:
What about Adam and Eve? They certainly brought physical death into the world, but they also brought spiritual death.

Are you so certain? I contend that the death that was introduced was SPIRITUAL: a separation from God. They were kicked out of the Garden and had to work for once in their lives. They died spiritually (lost their innocence) immediately. Their physical death took much, much longer and was natural.

Quiddity · Mar 27, 2006

I hope this doesnt spark another Pelagianist revolution.

I am of the philosophy that complete focus in the spiritual realm can be physically and spiritually unhealthy. Doctrines and world views are built on such an approach. Pelagianism is just one of many. Pelagius denied the primitive state in paradise and original sin, insisted on the naturalness of concupiscence and the death of the body.

John 4:21 makes an interesting distinction and separates spirit and truth. Why? Is truth restricted to the spiritual? I dont believe so.

alextemplet · Mar 27, 2006

Obviously the death referred to when Adam and Eve left the garden was spiritual:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die. ~ Genesis 2:17 (NRSV)

Adam and Eve obviously didn't die physically on that very day, so it had to be spiritual.

Since you mentioned it, the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ (John 6:22-71), but that doesn't mean it's physical human flesh. God is spirit, as we have agreed, so the bread and wine can spiritually become the body and blood of Christ without physically changing substance. However, to say that it is spiritual does not mean it is merely symbolic, because the spiritual is just as real as the physical. So it is the body and blood, spiritually.

Scuba Pete · Mar 27, 2006

Oh no! I feel like I have been labled once again. I have no real idea who this Pelagius is, nor do I particularly care.

But I ask you Victor: Which is more important? The church or the Spirit?

Scuba Pete · Mar 27, 2006

Alex,

how on EARTH did I miss "for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."???

I was confident that God's punishment would be swift, and here we have the "smoking gun" as it were. Frubals on your head!

dawny0826 · Mar 27, 2006

So often as I read these forums, I get the idea that most who claim to be Christian are stuck IN THIS WORLD. They read and understand the scriptures from a physical perspective rather than a SPIRITUAL one.

Take our view of death. Which is worse: spiritual or physical death?

Why then do we ASSUME that the death Adam brought to our world was PHYSICAL?

And this, NetDoc...is why you're one of my heroes.

Excellent questions.

It is the spiritual that all Christians should be focused on. The physical is of this world...and this world is NOT of Christ.

Quiddity · Mar 27, 2006

NetDoc said:
Oh no! I feel like I have been labled once again. I have no real idea who this Pelagius is, nor do I particularly care.

I have no idea if you fall into a Pelagianist frame of thinking. I noted it because it's relevant to the topic and it's outcome on believers. But I suppose you don't care about that.

NetDoc said:
But I ask you Victor: Which is more important? The church or the Spirit?

Good one.

Obviously the Spirit. But how the Spirit works is something you and I part our ways.

Todd · Mar 27, 2006

dawny0826 said:
It is the spiritual that all Christians should be focused on. The physical is of this world...and this world is NOT of Christ.

Agreed. I'd much rather be separated from my flesh than from God. For this reason the spirit is more important than the physical.

Scuba Pete · Mar 27, 2006

Victor said:
I have no idea if you fall into a Pelagianist frame of thinking. I noted it because it's relevant to the topic and it's outcome on believers. But I suppose you don't care about that.

Rather than just label, tell us what about these ideas you find repugnant!

Victor said:
Good one. Obviously the Spirit. But how the Spirit works is something you and I part our ways.

So then, do you see the Spirit as our Counselor?

Quiddity · Mar 27, 2006

NetDoc said:
Rather than just label, tell us what about these ideas you find repugnant!

I could have sworn I did that in my first post. Oh well...

NetDoc said:
So then, do you see the Spirit as our Counselor?

Yes I do.

nutshell · Mar 27, 2006

NetDoc said:
Are you so certain? I contend that the death that was introduced was SPIRITUAL: a separation from God. They were kicked out of the Garden and had to work for once in their lives. They died spiritually (lost their innocence) immediately. Their physical death took much, much longer and was natural.

I'm positive. The Fall brought both physical and spiritual death to the world. Before the fall, they would not have grown old and sick and died. There was no death of any kind and there was also no real growth.

Scuba Pete · Mar 27, 2006

nutshell said:
The Fall brought both physical and spiritual death to the world. Before the fall, they would not have grown old and sick and died. There was no death of any kind and there was also no real growth.

This is where in the scriptures??? Unfortunately, I don't think I am familiar with the reference.

What about "God is Spirit" don't you accept? Christians only (all variants)

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