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Prior to Bethleham Jesus

Prior Deity of Jesus

  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .
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Katzpur said:
I'm aready there. I already regret wasting my time talking to you. I have demonstrated over nine years on this forum that I am entirely capable of having courteous, respectful discussions with people whose beliefs differ widely from mine. I can tolerate differences of opinion, differences in belief, and differences in worldview. Really, when it gets down to it, about the only thing I cannot tolerate is self-righteousness. Carry on with your judgmental attitude, but don't expect to see any more replies from me.
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What you have demonstrated is that after 9 years you blew it.You are too emotional to be carrying on discussions of this magnitude.The evidence is clear.You let words get the best of you and you lose your temper very easily.You are in no position.You cannot tolerate anything.
Nobody is judging you.Its just easy to point out what you are obviously doing .You feel that way because it is you who has done something wrong.Your attitude is poor and you behave very badly.

BY THE WAY...IT WAS YOU WHO HIT ME UP FIRST.YESTERDAY AROUND 12PM.YOU APPROACHED ME.NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

If you want to leave and not discuss,well then carry on like I told you before.You come around because you love to argue.

I FORGIVE YOU SISTER.JUST DONT DO IT AGAIN:)
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Bible Student said:
Yes ,Hagar was Abrahams second wife.It says so in the holy scriptures.BUT,what you fail to realize is that Sarah was his first wife, and it was because of Sarah that Abraham was given Hagar as a concubine, and wife.That is why Isaac is only called the only begotten Son. NEVER ISHMAEL

Actually it is you who is being dishonest........

You keep stating that Ishmael is the only begotten son of Abraham first.
YOU ARE NOT ONY INCORRECT BUT YOU ARE GOING AGAINST THE VERY WORD OF GOD.

Like I told you before.It NEVER says that in the holy scriptures.

TRY to find one SCRIPTURE where it says that ISMAEL is the only begotten son of Abraham.

You cant.....

NOW,try to find where it says Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham.

HERE it is....... Hebrews 11:16 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Click to expand...

Bible Student said:
You are very incorrect brother.You keep stating that Ismael is the only begotten son of Abraham.It NEVER says that in the HS. Then,you say," it was symbolically said of Isaac that he was the only son, because Abraham sent away his wife Hagar along his eldest son."

Wow! you actually leave out the fact that Isaac is called only begotten son,yet,you state it for Ishmael. Amazing!

You are not understand ing Gods Word correctly brother.You say what you want to justify your cause and not the truth.
Click to expand...

The Scriptures say that Ishmael was Abraham's only son in Genesis 16. He had no sons before Ishmael. And it was some time before Isaac was born. Ishmael was Abraham's only begotten son before Isaac. When Abraham had sent Ishmael away, along with his mother, because of Sarah's jealousy- then Isaac was called Abraham's only, and beloved son. Hebrews calls Isaac Abraham's only begotten in a strictly symbolic manner, to indicate their unique relationship; Isaac had an older brother. If you continue to read your Scripture, you will see that God begets everyone and everything, according to His Word.

If you don't agree, that's fine. If the truth is withheld from me, it is God's will. If it is withheld from you, it is God's will. The end.
 
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Sleeppy said:
The Scriptures say that Ishmael was Abraham's only son in Genesis 16. He had no sons before Ishmael. And it was some time before Isaac was born. Ishmael was Abraham's only begotten son before Isaac. When Abraham had sent Ishmael away, along with his mother, because of Sarah's jealousy- then Isaac was called Abraham's only, and beloved son. Hebrews calls Isaac Abraham's only begotten in a strictly symbolic manner, to indicate their unique relationship; Isaac had an older brother. If you continue to read your Scripture, you will see that God begets everyone and everything, according to His Word.

If you don't agree, that's fine. If the truth is withheld from me, it is God's will. If it is withheld from you, it is God's will. The end.
Click to expand...
Ishmael was born 14 years before Isaac.And again,IT NEVER SAYS ISMAEL WAS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.YOU DO.THATS WHY YOU CANNOT PRODUCE A SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT.THE TRUTH IS WITHHELD FROM YOU:(
 
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Sleeppy said:
The Scriptures say that Ishmael was Abraham's only son in Genesis 16. He had no sons before Ishmael. And it was some time before Isaac was born. Ishmael was Abraham's only begotten son before Isaac. When Abraham had sent Ishmael away, along with his mother, because of Sarah's jealousy- then Isaac was called Abraham's only, and beloved son. Hebrews calls Isaac Abraham's only begotten in a strictly symbolic manner, to indicate their unique relationship; Isaac had an older brother. If you continue to read your Scripture, you will see that God begets everyone and everything, according to His Word.

If you don't agree, that's fine. If the truth is withheld from me, it is God's will. If it is withheld from you, it is God's will. The end.
Click to expand...
You truly need to understand what begets and only begotten son really mean.Only when you do so will you probably begin to see the truth.
 
A

allright

Active Member
[So when Jesus Christ became King in heaven he hurled down Satan and his angels to earth.This is when the 2,520 year prophecy in the book of Daniel comes into play.This is the prophecy of the "Gentile Times." It states that after this prophecy ends is when Jesus Christ would rule as King of Gods Kingdom for a period of time.This prophecy began in 607 B.C.E. with the destruction of Jerusalem by King Nebuchadnezzar.It goes on for 2,520 years until its end.If you go 2,520 years into the future,you come to 1914 C.E. Just add 606+1914 and you get the year 1914.}

Hey, if your going to be the great teacher you should at least know that the years in Daniel are Jewish years of 360 days and your off by about 37 years.
 
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Shiranui117 said:
Logic dictates that, before Isaac was born, Ishmael was indeed Abraham's only begotten son, because he was the only son Abraham had.
Click to expand...

Thats not correct.You will never find a single scripture that says Ishmael is the only begotten son of Abraham.

Beget and only begotten son are two entirely different things

The holy scriptures clearly states that Isaac is the only begotten Son of Abraham.

The reason for this is because Isaac was born of Sarah,which is Abrahams first wife.The promise was to be from the seed of Isaac,not Ishmael.


Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,


Douay-Rheims Bible
Genesis 22:2 He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and go into the land of vision: and there thou shalt offer him for a holocaust upon one of the mountains which I will show thee.

TRY TO FIND ONE VERSE ANYWHERE IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES WHERE IT SAYS THAT ISHMAEL IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF ABRAHAM


Just as the promise was to be by way of Isaac's seed, and why Isaac is called the only begotten son,Jesus too is called the only begotten Son.Jesus was the promise to all of mankind to redeem us.Jesus is also Gods first creation, who He made personally.Jesus was created before all other things.Colossians 1:15,16.
 
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allright said:
[So when Jesus Christ became King in heaven he hurled down Satan and his angels to earth.This is when the 2,520 year prophecy in the book of Daniel comes into play.This is the prophecy of the "Gentile Times." It states that after this prophecy ends is when Jesus Christ would rule as King of Gods Kingdom for a period of time.This prophecy began in 607 B.C.E. with the destruction of Jerusalem by King Nebuchadnezzar.It goes on for 2,520 years until its end.If you go 2,520 years into the future,you come to 1914 C.E. Just add 606+1914 and you get the year 1914.}

Hey, if your going to be the great teacher you should at least know that the years in Daniel are Jewish years of 360 days and your off by about 37 years.
Click to expand...
I am aware that these are 360 day periods.Thats how the whole formula came about.I spoke of the 2,520 years from the time it started, to the time it ended.I never once mentioned how this formula came to be.If you take 360 days and multiply it by 7 times as spoken of in the holy scriptures, you get=2,520 years

HERE IS A BREAKDOWN FOR YOU

Seven Symbolic Times. In Nebuchadnezzar’s personal experience of the vision’s fulfillment the “seven times” were evidently seven years, during which he became mad, with symptoms like those of lycanthropy, abandoning his throne to eat grass like a beast in the field. (Da 4:31-36) Notably, the Biblical description of the exercise of world domination by the Gentile powers is presented through the figure of beasts in opposition to the holy people of God and their “Prince of princes.” (Compare Da 7:2-8, 12, 17-26; 8:3-12, 20-25; Re 11:7; 13:1-11; 17:7-14.)

Concerning the word “times” (from Aramaic `id·dan´), as used in Daniel’s prophecy, lexicographers show it here to mean “years.” (See Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by L.*Koehler and W.*Baumgartner, Leiden, 1958, p. 1106; A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Brown, Driver, and Briggs, 1980, p. 1105; Lexicon Linguae Aramaicae Veteris Testamenti, edited by E.*Vogt, Rome, 1971, p. 124.)

The duration of a year as so used is indicated to be 360 days, inasmuch as three and a half times are shown to equal “a thousand two hundred and sixty days” at Revelation 12:6,*14. (Compare also Re 11:2,*3.) “Seven times,” according to this count, would equal 2,520 days. That a specific number of days may be used in the Bible record to represent prophetically an equivalent number of years can be seen by reading the accounts at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6. Only by applying the formula there expressed of “a day for a year” to the “seven times” of this prophecy can the vision of Daniel chapter*4 have significant fulfillment beyond the day of now extinct Nebuchadnezzar, as the evidence thus far presented gives reason to expect. They therefore represent 2,520 years.
 
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allright said:
[So when Jesus Christ became King in heaven he hurled down Satan and his angels to earth.This is when the 2,520 year prophecy in the book of Daniel comes into play.This is the prophecy of the "Gentile Times." It states that after this prophecy ends is when Jesus Christ would rule as King of Gods Kingdom for a period of time.This prophecy began in 607 B.C.E. with the destruction of Jerusalem by King Nebuchadnezzar.It goes on for 2,520 years until its end.If you go 2,520 years into the future,you come to 1914 C.E. Just add 606+1914 and you get the year 1914.}

Hey, if your going to be the great teacher you should at least know that the years in Daniel are Jewish years of 360 days and your off by about 37 years.
Click to expand...
I hope the explanation was helpful.In the future, you might want to ask instead of accusing people of things.Im not sore about it.Its just good to know what you are talking about before you go out and try to make someone look silly.It usually backfires.No harm done though:)
 
A

allright

Active Member
Bible Student said:
I am aware that these are 360 day periods.Thats how the whole formula came about.I spoke of the 2,520 years from the time it started, to the time it ended.I never once mentioned how this formula came to be.If you take 360 days and multiply it by 7 times as spoken of in the holy scriptures, you get=2,520 years

HERE IS A BREAKDOWN FOR YOU

Seven Symbolic Times. In Nebuchadnezzar’s personal experience of the vision’s fulfillment the “seven times” were evidently seven years, during which he became mad, with symptoms like those of lycanthropy, abandoning his throne to eat grass like a beast in the field. (Da 4:31-36) Notably, the Biblical description of the exercise of world domination by the Gentile powers is presented through the figure of beasts in opposition to the holy people of God and their “Prince of princes.” (Compare Da 7:2-8, 12, 17-26; 8:3-12, 20-25; Re 11:7; 13:1-11; 17:7-14.)

Concerning the word “times” (from Aramaic `id·dan´), as used in Daniel’s prophecy, lexicographers show it here to mean “years.” (See Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by L.*Koehler and W.*Baumgartner, Leiden, 1958, p. 1106; A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Brown, Driver, and Briggs, 1980, p. 1105; Lexicon Linguae Aramaicae Veteris Testamenti, edited by E.*Vogt, Rome, 1971, p. 124.)

The duration of a year as so used is indicated to be 360 days, inasmuch as three and a half times are shown to equal “a thousand two hundred and sixty days” at Revelation 12:6,*14. (Compare also Re 11:2,*3.) “Seven times,” according to this count, would equal 2,520 days. That a specific number of days may be used in the Bible record to represent prophetically an equivalent number of years can be seen by reading the accounts at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6. Only by applying the formula there expressed of “a day for a year” to the “seven times” of this prophecy can the vision of Daniel chapter*4 have significant fulfillment beyond the day of now extinct Nebuchadnezzar, as the evidence thus far presented gives reason to expect. They therefore represent 2,520 years.
Click to expand...

Well then your using calender years for the period 607 bc to 1914 ad

Your 2520 years are Jewish year,

2520 x 360 = 907,200 days

907200 divided by 365.25 = 2,483.78 calender years

I use 365.25 because of 1 extra day every 4 years for leap year
 
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allright said:
Well then your using calender years for the period 607 bc to 1914 ad

Your 2520 years are Jewish year,

2520 x 360 = 907,200 days

907200 divided by 365.25 = 2,483.78 calender years

I use 365.25 because of 1 extra day every 4 years for leap year
Click to expand...
You still do not understand.
 
Shiranui117

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Bible Student said:
Thats not correct.You will never find a single scripture that says Ishmael is the only begotten son of Abraham.
Click to expand...
No, but we can use very, very basic logic and the definition of a word to arrive at the conclusion that, before Isaac was born, Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son.

To beget means to father, or to give birth to.

Before Abraham begot Isaac, Ishmael was the only son that Abraham had begotten.

Therefore, Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son before Isaac was born.

Beget and only begotten son are two entirely different things
Click to expand...
Yes. One is a verb that means to procreate, and the other is an adjective that denotes that you have no siblings and are the only one to be born of your parents.

"Only-begotten son" can have a titular meaning as well, such as when God calls Ephraim or Israel His only-begotten son. You seem to only know about the titular meaning, and not about the literal meaning.
 
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Shiranui117 said:
No, but we can use very, very basic logic and the definition of a word to arrive at the conclusion that, before Isaac was born, Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son.

To beget means to father, or to give birth to.

Before Abraham begot Isaac, Ishmael was the only son that Abraham had begotten.

Therefore, Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son before Isaac was born.

Yes. One is a verb that means to procreate, and the other is an adjective that denotes that you have no siblings and are the only one to be born of your parents.

"Only-begotten son" can have a titular meaning as well, such as when God calls Ephraim or Israel His only-begotten son. You seem to only know about the titular meaning, and not about the literal meaning.
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You still do not understand.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Shiranui117 said:
No, but we can use very, very basic logic and the definition of a word to arrive at the conclusion that, before Isaac was born, Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son.

To beget means to father, or to give birth to.

Before Abraham begot Isaac, Ishmael was the only son that Abraham had begotten.

Therefore, Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son before Isaac was born.

Yes. One is a verb that means to procreate, and the other is an adjective that denotes that you have no siblings and are the only one to be born of your parents.

"Only-begotten son" can have a titular meaning as well, such as when God calls Ephraim or Israel His only-begotten son. You seem to only know about the titular meaning, and not about the literal meaning.
Click to expand...

Or someone could just provide the verses.
 
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Shiranui117 said:
No, but we can use very, very basic logic and the definition of a word to arrive at the conclusion that, before Isaac was born, Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son.

To beget means to father, or to give birth to.

Before Abraham begot Isaac, Ishmael was the only son that Abraham had begotten.

Therefore, Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son before Isaac was born.

Yes. One is a verb that means to procreate, and the other is an adjective that denotes that you have no siblings and are the only one to be born of your parents.

"Only-begotten son" can have a titular meaning as well, such as when God calls Ephraim or Israel His only-begotten son. You seem to only know about the titular meaning, and not about the literal meaning.
Click to expand...
You are still incorrect.You cannot see, and understand, that Gods Word never says that Ismael is the only begotten son.This term is only used for Isaac in this passage.Only Isaac is the designated only begotten son.

Like I explained to you before,this term has special significance,and does not apply to Ishmael, in any way.

What you think you know is actually incorrect:(

When God is referring to Israel as His firstborn Son,this is symbolic, and implies that this new nation is likened to a firstborn.God NEVER calls Israel His only begotten Son.He says firstborn.


The reason God called the nation of Israel his firstborn was because He chose them out of the people of the world. Deuteronomy 7:6. 6 For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God. It is you Jehovah your God has chosen to become his people, a special property, out of all the peoples that are on the surface of the ground.


Deuteronomy 14:2 For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God, and Jehovah has chosen you to become his people, a special property out of all the peoples who are on the surface of the ground.

THIS WAS SYMBOLIC




LITERAL WOULD BE AS IN THE CASE OF JESUS CHRIST

Jesus was Gods first creation over all other things.Colossians 1:15,16. Everything was made through him and for him.This includes:Angels,humans,the universe etc.. Proverbs 8:22-31 and Genesis 1:26 confirms this.



IN THE CASE OF ISAAC AND ISHMAEL
Isaac is referred to the only begotten Son because Isaac was from Sarah,Abrahams first wife.The promise was to come through Isaacs seed,not Ishmael's.Hagar was Abrahams second wife and slave girl to Sarah.

Did you know that Hagar was from Egypt?
Sarah was a Hebrew woman.

Hagar was an Egyptian slave girl in the tribe of Abraham. She belonged to Sarah, the alpha female of the tribe. When Sarah could not conceive she gave Hagar to her husband as a surrogate. Hagar became pregnant, and God promised that her child would be the ancestor of a great nation. She bore a son, Ishmael.

READ IT.ITS ALL IN GENESIS 16:1-16.

When Ishmael was born he was declared wild.Genesis 16:11,12. 11The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers.”

Isaac was the promised one.Sarah didn't have a child until she was around 90 years of age for a reason.It was not the time yet.


Remember too that when Abraham had Ishmael he was not called Abraham yet.His name was Abram and Sarah was called Sarai.This is when God established His covenant with Abraham.Its all in Genesis 17.

This is when God chooses Isaac and not Ishmael to start the seed.


19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.[d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

ITS VERY DEEP,YOU MUST PRAY,READ AND STUDY THOROUGHLY
 
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allright said:
Well then your using calender years for the period 607 bc to 1914 ad

Your 2520 years are Jewish year,

2520 x 360 = 907,200 days

907200 divided by 365.25 = 2,483.78 calender years

I use 365.25 because of 1 extra day every 4 years for leap year
Click to expand...
You come to the correct conclusion by following the instructions in Gods Word.When did God ever say to add extra time? You are trying to use human reasoning and human wisdom to try to understand godly wisdom.It does not work that way.Do as God says, and not what you interpret, or think is right.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
I believe the Person of Jesus Christ always existed as the eternal Son of God prior to becoming human.
 
Shiranui117

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Bible Student said:
You are still incorrect.You cannot see, and understand, that Gods Word never says that Ismael is the only begotten son.This term is only used for Isaac in this passage.Only Isaac is the designated only begotten son.

Like I explained to you before,this term has special significance,and does not apply to Ishmael, in any way.

What you think you know is actually incorrect:(

When God is referring to Israel as His firstborn Son,this is symbolic, and implies that this new nation is likened to a firstborn.God NEVER calls Israel His only begotten Son.He says firstborn.


The reason God called the nation of Israel his firstborn was because He chose them out of the people of the world. Deuteronomy 7:6. 6 For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God. It is you Jehovah your God has chosen to become his people, a special property, out of all the peoples that are on the surface of the ground.


Deuteronomy 14:2 For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God, and Jehovah has chosen you to become his people, a special property out of all the peoples who are on the surface of the ground.

THIS WAS SYMBOLIC




LITERAL WOULD BE AS IN THE CASE OF JESUS CHRIST

Jesus was Gods first creation over all other things.Colossians 1:15,16. Everything was made through him and for him.This includes:Angels,humans,the universe etc.. Proverbs 8:22-31 and Genesis 1:26 confirms this.



IN THE CASE OF ISAAC AND ISHMAEL
Isaac is referred to the only begotten Son because Isaac was from Sarah,Abrahams first wife.The promise was to come through Isaacs seed,not Ishmael's.Hagar was Abrahams second wife and slave girl to Sarah.

Did you know that Hagar was from Egypt?
Sarah was a Hebrew woman.

Hagar was an Egyptian slave girl in the tribe of Abraham. She belonged to Sarah, the alpha female of the tribe. When Sarah could not conceive she gave Hagar to her husband as a surrogate. Hagar became pregnant, and God promised that her child would be the ancestor of a great nation. She bore a son, Ishmael.

READ IT.ITS ALL IN GENESIS 16:1-16.

When Ishmael was born he was declared wild.Genesis 16:11,12. 11The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers.”

Isaac was the promised one.Sarah didn't have a child until she was around 90 years of age for a reason.It was not the time yet.


Remember too that when Abraham had Ishmael he was not called Abraham yet.His name was Abram and Sarah was called Sarai.This is when God established His covenant with Abraham.Its all in Genesis 17.

This is when God chooses Isaac and not Ishmael to start the seed.


19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.[d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

ITS VERY DEEP,YOU MUST PRAY,READ AND STUDY THOROUGHLY
Click to expand...
I have read it and studied it thoroughly. But you're failing to understand the basic definition of "begotten".

As I said before, you are focusing on the symbolic meaning of the word "only-begotten", but are completely forgetting in the case of Isaac and Ishmael that it also has a literal meaning.

Yes, Isaac is called the firstborn son because he was the son of the promise. But we're not talking about Isaac, or his promise, or Sarah. We are talking about what the definition of "begotten" means, and we are talking about a time before Isaac existed.

Before Abraham/Abram begot Isaac, he begot Ishmael. Ishmael was, up until the conception of Isaac, the only son that Abraham begot. Therefore, Ishmael was Abraham's/Abram's only-begotten son.

Just because Scripture doesn't spell out every single little tiny detail for us doesn't mean that every single little tiny detail doesn't exist. By your logic, no one ever pooped or peed in the Bible, because the Bible never says that anyone did.

It's time to start learning to actually use your head and do basic logical deduction. Just because there isn't a verse in the Bible for it doesn't mean it's not true.
 
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