Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

Ingledsva · Sep 3, 2014

Ingledsva said:
Actually Purgatory comes from the Hebrew idea of Sheol.

Sheol is where all the dead await final Judgment .

The Hebrew prayed for, and to, their passed relatives.

There is the idea, shown in the colloquialism, "Bosom of Abraham," text, that they realize they placed themselves in a particular order there, in Sheol. "Good" folk are at the head table, in the "Bosom of Abraham," and others are far below looking up, and yearning for a drop of water from that table, to stop their burning desire." Christians mistake this for a hell text

JM2C said:
Lk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

No more crossing from here to there as in everything is final after death.

ING - And your point here would be what?

Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

ING - Exactly what the Hebrew believed. ALL of the dead go to Sheol, to await Final Judgment. And Rev 20:13-14 show this.

Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ will come again for the 2nd time but not to deal with sins again.

Scofield Reference Notes - (Greek, "hadēs", "the unseen world," is revealed as the place of departed human spirits between death and resurrection). The word occurs, (Mat_11:23); (Mat_16:18); (Luk_10:15); (Act_2:27); (Act_2:31); (Rev_1:18); (Rev_6:8); (Rev_20:13); (Rev_20:14) and is the equivalent of the Old Testament "sheol."

First notice that they ALL are in Hades/Sheol.

Luke 16:23 And being in the grave (Hades/Sheol) raised his eyes (huparcho,) being at the (basanos) bottom, to see the Abraam far above in the distance, and Lazaros in the bosom of him.

Luke 16:24 And he called out saying, "Father Abraam have compassion for me, and send Lazaros that he might moisten the end of his finger in water and refresh my tongue, because I am tormented by this burning (intense yearning.)"

Luke 16:25 But said Abraam, "son remember that received thou the good/benefits in your lifetime, and Lazaros in his lifetime, likewise, his bad/injurious: but now here, is his consolation, and your grief/sorrow.

Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great impassable void is fixed, so that those who desire to pass hence to you cannot, nor do they who desire to cross from there pass over unto us.

The yearning and sorrow is not because he is in Hell – he isn’t. It is because he finds himself dead, in Sheol, awaiting final Judgment, and his actions in life have placed him low in the lineup, he is not even at a table, let alone at the head table in the Bosom of Abraham. Those in the “Bosom of Abraham” have done right and are set for final judgment.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades/Sheol delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and Hades/Sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

NOTE that it says Hades/Sheol delivers up the dead in it, - and they are THEN JUDGED.

Thus the people in Hades/Sheol would be both good and bad, as we are told in the Hebrew Sheol information. FINAL JUDGMENT decides if they are destroyed in the Lake Of Fire.

That last word translated "fire," actually refers to a refiner's furnace that burns off the dross (impurities.)

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CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2014

1robin said:
So it was not all, not most, not even many of the prophecies that were written after the fact. It was only a few you selected or found. I tell you what I can live with that if you can. I do not know if they were ever intended as prophecy but there are some predictions of a sort that were recorded after the some of the events. Not many but a few. Assuming you are right, and that is a lot of assuming that still leaves maybe 2000 plus left to explain.

You know I read Jewish web sites, and they talk about the prophesies that Jesus didn't fulfill. There's not that many. Only problem is, they are the ones the true Messiah was supposed to fulfill and that Jesus didn't fulfill.

So, unfortunately, hundreds or even thousands of other things that Christians claim as prophesy don't mean much. But really, "out of Egypt I called my son"? And the lady crying over her lost kids because they were not to show how the supposed slaughter of the "innocents" was predicted? Sounds fishy to me.

idav · Sep 3, 2014

1robin said:
There something weird you non-theists do that has always tickled me. You will pick on God for a thousand lesser things but almost never mention the fact that he claims to have sentenced us all to death. Jesus was the lamb of God but you forget he is also the lion of Judah. Why worry about what happened to the Canaanites or some hypothetical baby, when we are all sentenced to die?

So pretty much god just sentences all his children to die one way or another with very few exceptions if any.

Shuttlecraft · Sep 3, 2014

Nakosis said:
I see Satan as the emotional part of our brain...

We're all imperfect and who knows what dark things lurk in our subconscious..
The scifi movie Forbidden Planet touched on the theme when an invisible monster drew on Dr Morbius's subconscious mind to create itself.
Alternatively there may be malevolent spiritual parasites floating around (ie "demons") that like to get into peoples heads and bend their victims will to their own just as Jesus said.

[youtube]IYFr3UyVpRA[/youtube]

Ingledsva · Sep 3, 2014

Ingledsva said:
Only problem is that there is no evil Satan in Tanakh. Satan is the servant of YHVH, the Tester/Accuser. If found wanting, after testing, he stands beside YHVH to Accuse the "tested.

Ingledsva said:
YHVH puts Satan's attention to Lot - to test him.

Job 1:8 And said YHVH to Satan, do put your regard/attention upon my servant Job for there is none like him on the earth, a man pious and upright, fearing Elohiym and turning from wickedness.

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Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

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Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

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We even find this idea still mixed into their new Greek Diabolos.

Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led forth into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to be tested/proved by the devil.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Luke 13:16 And ought not this one moreover, a daughter of Abraam, bound to the discernment/attention of the Accuser (satanas) ten and eight years, not, of a necessity, be loosed from this impediment on this day of the Sabbath?

Satan, in these later writings, has now been fully corrupted by foreign influence, to the Greek idea of Diabolos.

JM2C said:
You know the Diabolos, devil, satanas, satan, accuser, tester, the antichrist, no matter what language you translate them, they will all come out the same as Gods enemy/ies.

ING - Not so. In Tanakh Satan is a servant of YHVH, he is not autonomous evil. I have absolutely shown that above. Later Christians start changing this idea, after pollution by other religions.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

ING - I posted this verse above - to show his JOB is to test - and if you are found wanting - to stand beside YHVH and ACCUSE YOU.

Ingledsva said:

John is the last written, and obviously not by the Disciple John. This is well known, and even the language, style, and words, are different.

These texts were written long after Jesus' death. There is no proof that any of the people that supposedly wrote them, - actually did.

Click to expand...

You mean the gospel of John is not the apostle John or the writer of the Revelation?

How did you know if you dont know?

I mean exactly what I said. They do not know who actually wrote these texts.

You also need to take into account that these later Christians misunderstood the Hebrew texts.

This is very obvious - by for instance - Isaiah's son Emmanuel being turned into Jesus, and a King of Babylon being turned into Satan/Lucifer.

So, we know for a FACT that they got things wrong.

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Ingledsva · Sep 3, 2014

Ingledsva said:
And we will repeat that this idea is totally illogical, and immoral to even hold.

Such ideas are what the Hebrew, and the Inquisition, and other Christians used to defend their torture and murder of babies!

SICK! SICK! SICK!

1robin said:
I know what you claim because you have said the same unjustifiable thing over and over. It is not even an argument. It is only an appeal to sympathy and emotion. It is not true, and even if it was you could not possible know it was. It is irrelevant since God does not condemn these children. Not that your world view has an objective basis for a single moral truth's existence to even begin with. You can keep repeating this ridiculous mantra all you want and appealing to emotion. Apparently it is all you have left, but it will be just as irrelevant, just an unknowable, and just as silly given your world view, after the 300 time as it was the first.

Obviously Not so. You however will still be wrong - as you have been told by the majority of us. The idea is SICK!

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Ingledsva · Sep 3, 2014

9-10ths_Penguin said:
How is that relevant? Is the creator of a thing the only one who can embue it with value?

If God is "the perfect moral locus of the universe" (which is a big, unsubstantiated if, but for argument's sake), then God's actions would be a perfect moral guide, and I could be sure that if God does a thing, it's a moral act, since a "perfect moral locus" would not commit immoral acts.

IOW, if we grant your assumption, then if it's moral for God to let children die, then I can be sure that it's moral for me to let children die, too.

I think you're just uncomfortable with the logical implications of your position.

Yep, and these ideas WERE USED by Christians during the Inquisition, and later, to justify their torture and murder of infants, and children. Such ideas are immoral.

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Shuttlecraft · Sep 3, 2014

Ingledsva said:
Yep, and these ideas WERE USED by Christians during the Inquisition, and later, to justify their torture and murder of infants, and children. Such ideas are immoral.

If they were true Christians, I'm Mary Poppins..

Ingledsva · Sep 3, 2014

Ingledsva said:
Yep, and these ideas WERE USED by Christians during the Inquisition, and later, to justify their torture and murder of infants, and children. Such ideas are immoral.

Shuttlecraft said:
If they were true Christians, I'm Mary Poppins..

I get so tired of Christians saying that.

It is a NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY at it's finest.

Do you folks realize if you take what you are saying to its logical conclusion, - then there are - NO TRUE CHRISTIANS - at all - since you - ALL - are sinners?

I guess we can start turning all the churches into recreation halls, and day-care centers.

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Shuttlecraft · Sep 3, 2014

Jesus said people are like trees and we can judge them by what fruit they produce; and if it's rotten, then they're rotten, (it's not rocket science!)
The fruit of the Inquisition and some other equally nasty so-called "christians" is rotten to the core, so if you think they're true Christians you're easily fooled..

Ingledsva · Sep 3, 2014

Shuttlecraft said:
Jesus said people are like trees and we can judge them by what fruit they produce; and if it's rotten, then they're rotten, (it's not rocket science!)
The fruit of the Inquisition and some other equally nasty so-called "christians" is rotten to the core, so if you think they're true Christians you're easily fooled.....

Let me repeat - that is illogical.

"It is a NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY at it's finest.

Do you folks realize if you take what you are saying to its logical conclusion, - then there are - NO TRUE CHRISTIANS - at all - since you - ALL - are sinners?

I guess we can start turning all the churches into recreation halls, and day-care centers."

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If you are going to use it - then you have to apply it to - ALL - Christians.

Since - ALL - Christians commit sins - thus no true Christians - AT ALL!

That, of course, being an illogical conclusion, thus - what you claimed is false.

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Shuttlecraft · Sep 3, 2014

Ingledsva said:
..Do you folks realize if you take what you are saying to its logical conclusion, - then there are - NO TRUE CHRISTIANS - at all - since you - ALL - are sinners?..

Adolf went to church but if you think he was a true Christian you're easily fooled!
All the true Christians I know don't go around doing that blitzkrieg stuff..

CG Didymus · Sep 4, 2014

Shuttlecraft said:
Adolf went to church but if you think he was a true Christian you're easily fooled!
All the true Christians I know don't go around doing that blitzkrieg stuff..

What if God told you to? What if God told you to go into a city and kill all the men, women and children? Would you do it? Would you really believe that it was God telling this? What if it wasn't God telling you directly, but the leader of your tribe told you that God told him to tell you to go kill them all? Would you believe him and follow his orders?

Ingledsva · Sep 4, 2014

Shuttlecraft said:
Adolf went to church but if you think he was a true Christian you're easily fooled!
All the true Christians I know don't go around doing that blitzkrieg stuff..

I don't know if he actually was, or not.

He was raised Christian. Went to Christian school.

Used Christian rhetoric to raise his Christian nation against "Jesus' killers." His words not mine.

Made a pact with the Christian Church, etc.

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Saint Frankenstein · Sep 4, 2014

Ingledsva said:
I don't know if he actually was, or not.

He was raised Christian. Went to Christian school.

Used Christian rhetoric to raise his Christian nation again "Jesus' killers." His words not mine.

Made a pact with the Christian Church, etc.

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Hitler's actual religious/spiritual beliefs are unclear. I wish people would stop bandying on about this subject because no one knows what he actually believed in private, and it's not like it really matters, anyway.

Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shuttlecraft · Sep 4, 2014

CG Didymus said:
What if God told you to? What if God told you to go into a city and kill all the men, women and children? What if it wasn't God telling you directly, but the leader of your tribe told you that God told him to tell you to go kill them all? Would you believe him and follow his orders?

Depends on the context.
For example "The target marker flares looked quite pretty floating slowly down in the night sky" said my mother referring to the time Hitler bombed her home city of Leicester (England) in 1940 when she was 18.
She and her family survived without a scratch but others didn't..
So when "tribal leaders" Churchill and Roosevelt ordered the Brit and American "tribes" to do D-day to settle Adolf's hash, the Allied soldiers were glad to do it..

I mean, Hitler tried to cut our milk supply lines to stop us making tea (what cheek!) so he HAD to be tackled!

A London milkman in 1940

9-10ths_Penguin · Sep 4, 2014

Saint Frankenstein said:
Hitler's actual religious/spiritual beliefs are unclear. I wish people would stop bandying on about this subject because no one knows what he actually believed in private, and it's not like it really matters, anyway.

Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Was Hitler ever excommunicated?

I agree: it's not about his own private beliefs; it's about how Christians responded to him. Regardless of his own personal beliefs, he payed lip-service to Christianity his entire life... and it worked. Countless Christians followed him without having a problem reconciling this with their own faiths.

The important thing isn't whether Hitler was a Christian in private; it's that his public Christian image (whether real or fake) was so readily accepted as plausible and sincere.

When we ask about Hitler's beliefs, we look at things like the evidence that he dabbled in the occult. We DON'T base it on claims like "he couldn't have been a Christian because no Christian would have committed genocide."

I think it's also worth pointing out that regardless of Hitler's personal religious beliefs, he took much of the inspiration for his anti-Semitism from the writings of Martin Luther (who most certainly was a Christian), so quite a bit of Nazi ideology most definitely can be traced back to Christian religious beliefs, only it's to those of Luther rather than Hitler.

... which has more troubling implications for Christianity today (Protestant denominations, anyhow) than Hitler's beliefs could ever have, when you really think about it.

JM2C · Sep 4, 2014

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I agree. I'm more interested in the next link in the chain: the idea that sinful people are disposable.

Like a razor blade? Not really!

Read and understand:

Mk 2:15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levis house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him.

Mk 2:16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?

Mk 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have NOT come to call the righteous, but sinners.

JM2C · Sep 4, 2014

CG Didymus said:
What if God told you to? What if God told you to go into a city and kill all the men, women and children? Would you do it? Would you really believe that it was God telling this? What if it wasn't God telling you directly, but the leader of your tribe told you that God told him to tell you to go kill them all? Would you believe him and follow his orders?

Joshua’s time Or Hitler’s?

viole · Sep 4, 2014

Shuttlecraft said:
Adolf went to church but if you think he was a true Christian you're easily fooled!
All the true Christians I know don't go around doing that blitzkrieg stuff..

He could have said the other way round: only true Christians do that blitzkrieg stuff.
So, it would be basically your word against his concerning what constitute a true Christian.

But the problem, of course, is not Hitler. But the church that compromised with him and never excommunicated him.
Were they no true Christians either? They did not themselves do any blitzkrieg stuff, so maybe they were.

Ciao

- viole

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