Islam and idolatry

The Koran is considered to be the eternal, uncreated word of God.

Now... how can God be a book? Is this not idolatry, or association?

Orichalcum said:

The Koran is considered to be the eternal, uncreated word of God.

Now... how can God be a book? Is this not idolatry, or association?

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Who told you God is the book?

What inside the book is God's words just the same as Torah and Injeel.

Are you sure about what you are talking about here or maybe you mean somthing totally different than what it appeared to me.

No one told me that God is the book, I just thought it was an interesting question, certainly not one i've seen on here before.

Thanks for the reply.

Ok man, indeed it was an interesting question

You are most welcome anytime with any more *interesting* questions.


Peace ...

Orichalcum said:

The Koran is considered to be the eternal, uncreated word of God.

Now... how can God be a book? Is this not idolatry, or association?

Click to expand...

Islam loathes idolatry, which is why there are no symbols, representations, or intercessors between God and man. "Quran" means "recitation," and was originally a spoken revelation, but was only later recorded for posterity. And the book is unncessary. Some children memorize the Quran.

I have actually often considered that the word can become a form of idolatry, but in a Christian context more than in an Islamic context. However this does carry over into Islam because Jeheshuah/Isa is considered the word of Allah.


Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

Orichalcum said:

The Koran is considered to be the eternal, uncreated word of God.

Now... how can God be a book? Is this not idolatry, or association?

Click to expand...

Who told you it was uncreated????? We can see it, read it, recite it. It is present in the Dunya, the First heaven up to the footstool (Al Kursi), and one must presume (tho' Allah knows best) in all the heavens up to the Throne (Al Arsh). It is very much a part of the creation as are we, our prophets, their books, the angels, the heavens, even paradise and hell. Can I enquire 'what's your flava?'

Nehustan said:

Who told you it was uncreated????? We can see it, read it, recite it. It is present in the Dunya, the First heaven up to the footstool (Al Kursi), and one must presume (tho' Allah knows best) in all the heavens up to the Throne (Al Arsh). It is very much a part of the creation as are we, our prophets, their books, the angels, the heavens, even paradise and hell. Can I enquire 'what's your flava?'

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I've just been doing some research, thats all.

I did read a good book, well, good in parts called "Islam and it's discontents" by Abdelwahab Meddeb.

Though I would be interested in any other books on Islam you could reccommend.

Ahh well research in Islam is a long winded endeavour I started in my early twenties (15 years ago)....and really haven't taken many steps forward i.e. most of my research is still done in English. One of the first requirements of an Islamic Scholar is Arabic language to as a high a degree as is humanly possible as the language takes multiple meanings of words to unbelievable heights.

Well I would recommend any books on Tahweed. It can be considered the foundation upon the whole of Islam is based. Without Tawheed none of the fard obligations have any substance. Thus if Islam rests upon five pillars, these five pillars rest upon a person's Tawheed. There are some very good books I can suggest, and I think they appear in softcopy I believe, let me have a look around for you....

The Fundamentals of Tawheed: Islamic Monotheism is an excellent book and can also be found in softcopy here. Also An Explanation of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab's Kitab al Tawhid is very good, tho' considered the definitive wahhabi/salafi text I found it very beautiful, and very close to my own perceptions. The translation by Sameh Strauch again is here.


There is a very beautiful hadith regarding Tawheed, let me look....

Abdullaah bin ‘Amr reported that the Messenger of Allaah said: “A man will be brought along to the balances on the Day of Resurrection, and there will be brought out for him ninety nine scrolls, every scroll of them stretching when unrolled) as far as an eye can reach, in which are written his sins and his guilty acts, and they will be put in one pan of the Balances. Then a small card will be brought out on which is written the Testimony of Faith: There is no true god except Allah, and Muhammad is His slave and Messenger, which will be put in the other pan and it will outweigh all his wrongdoing.” [Ibn Maajah]


(Post Script: This page appeared without me looking for it or opening it...so I'll take that as an ayat)

Nehustan said:

Who told you it was uncreated????? We can see it, read it, recite it. It is present in the Dunya, the First heaven up to the footstool (Al Kursi), and one must presume (tho' Allah knows best) in all the heavens up to the Throne (Al Arsh). It is very much a part of the creation as are we, our prophets, their books, the angels, the heavens, even paradise and hell. Can I enquire 'what's your flava?'

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There is no proof that the Quran was created whether in Quran itself or in the Sunnah. We can see, read and recite any other book dear Nehustan too, and this is not a proof for the creation of Quran.

Do you know that Imaam Ahmad was imprisoned and tortured for twenty-eight months under the Abbasid caliph al-Mu`tasim in an effort to force him to publicly espouse the "Mu`tazila" position that the Holy "Quran" was created? but the Imam bore up unflinchingly under the persecution and refused to renounce the belief of Ahl- us-Sunna that the "Quran" is the uncreated word of Allah.

You can read this link below about Hazrat Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal.

http://www.inter-islam.org/Actions/ir80.html

Peace ...

Ok I've read it and certainly Hazrat Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal believed that the Quran, as the word of Allah (i.e. Quran) was as Allah is (without beginning). Can you provide the proofs which Hazrat Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal cited (i.e. hadiths) to substansiate his position, I'm sure there must be many. The fact that someone is prepared to die for their position does not in itself validate the position however impressive it is as an action.

It says in the Quran that Jesus is a word from Allah, as the Quran are words from Allah. Personally I tend to believe that both, as everything other than Allah himself, are creations, including Jesus and the Quran. But I am not unmoving in this position and I am perfectly willing to consider Hadith on the issue.

Just found this...quite interesting as it considers the issue from the idea as the 'word' of Allah as used for Jeheshuah/Isa.


I would be very interested to learn more about Imam Hanbal specifically the proofs that convinced him of his position given I read he was a scholar of hadith.

hmmm...very interesting I have just looked around and found an oft quoted hadith qudsi....

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:

When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.

It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari, an-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah).

This also appears in that greatest of resources as the entry for hadith qudsi. Is this one of the sources for the position. Am I to understand that the argument follows that this book which is 'with' Allah is the Quran as we have it?

Thanks for the help, I will look into these with great interest.

Nehustan said:

Ok I've read it and certainly Hazrat Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal believed that the Quran, as the word of Allah (i.e. Quran) was as Allah is (without beginning).

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Quran is not like Allah (without beginning), it's just the word of Allah.

Can you provide the proofs which Hazrat Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal cited (i.e. hadiths) to substansiate his position, I'm sure there must be many. The fact that someone is prepared to die for their position does not in itself validate the position however impressive it is as an action.

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He doesn't need any proof from hadiths, it's in Quran itself.

[1] We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:

[2] And what will explain to thee what the Night of Power is?

[3] The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.

[4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

[5] Peace!... This until the rise of Morn (Quran 97:1-5)

We read the word revealed in the first verse in arabic as, "nazallna" which in means sent down.

Most of scholars " and ibn-abbas the cousin of the prophet and the one whom called the translator of the Quran was one of them" believed that this verse meant that Allah have revealed the whole Quran at once in that night (laylat of al-gadar) in Ramadan. Allah revealed it all at once from "the sacred board" to the house of "Izza" in the first "Donya" sky "heaven". Then it was revealed to Mohammed "peace be upon him" in 23 years according to the events of the life of prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him".

If you have any proof that it was created, whether from Quran or from any hadith so i'm all ears.

It says in the Quran that Jesus is a word from Allah, as the Quran are words from Allah. Personally I tend to believe that both, as everything other than Allah himself, are creations, including Jesus and the Quran. But I am not unmoving in this position and I am perfectly willing to consider Hadith on the issue.

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Jesus was the word from Allah when he said: [be] and it's been, but Quran is the word of Allah the same like Torah and Injeel before it.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth (Quran), confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single People, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you; so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (Quran 5:48)

It's co-equal with the pervious scriptures and it came to confirm it, guarding it in saftey but he promised to protect this scripture himself.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (Quran 15:9)

Nehustan said:

Just found this...quite interesting as it considers the issue from the idea as the 'word' of Allah as used for Jeheshuah/Isa.

http://spaces.msn.com/hangingodes/blog/cns!F201A31C506FA548!120.entry​

I would be very interested to learn more about Imam Hanbal specifically the proofs that convinced him of his position given I read he was a scholar of hadith.

Click to expand...

He wasn't just a scholar of hadith, but he is one of the four "madhab" in "fiqh" which all Muslims around the world follow nowdays.

When I say created I mean created by Allah. I think you may have misunderstood that I meant created by men, which I obviously do not believe. As far as I am concerned anything that is within the creation is created. Saying that Allah created the Quran in my mind is the same as saying he revealed it. Like I said I may be well off base, but the Hadith Qudsi I quoted seems to suggest that their is a book that is 'with' Allah. I spoke to a brother last night who I know well on this matter, and he was of the mind that the Quran we have is a reflection of the book that is 'with' Allah. I am quite happy to adopt the orthodox opinion on this outwardly, and pass it over with an 'Allah Alim', as what appears logical in my mind might not be true.

Thanks for your time in giving me what has been taught to you as true and I will consider it and hope Allah grants me hidayat on the matter.

Jazak Allahu Khiran...

Allah Hafiz.

Well, what is wrong with Idolism? I have never really studied the bible, but it appears that followers of the Koran are not opposed to Idolism. Jihad means "Striving or struggling in the way of God." So really, it does not matter, you are not struggling for God if you simply destroy the word of God. The Qur' an is the word of God, if you dececrate it then you are dececrating God.