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apostasy from Islam

gnostic

The Lost One
The Afghan Christian fellow, Abdul Rahman, is not facing honor killing. He is actually facing the court system for leaving Islam and converting to Christianity, which most conservative Muslims would consider to be apostasy. I would guess that more liberal or very moderate Muslims believe that the apostate should not be punished.

This Rahman is not a Jew, so I don't think he has anything to do with the Jews you are talking about, Mehrosh. I don't see Rahman's situation as the same as those of the Jews, don't you think? His family, his parents and his friends are all Afghan Muslims. Therefore I don't see how your last reply is relevant here.

I don't know if this law in Afghanistan, to punish those who are in apostasy are old or new law, but the current Afghan government doesn't seem to have any inclination in changing the law.

Rahman didn't speak out against Islam. He just said that he had left Islam and converted to another religion in the hearing of some police, who arrested him. Even his family and parents have no sympathy for him, and hoped that he would die for disgracing Islam. The court judge seemed to have already made up his mind about giving him death sentence, before Rahman's trial had even begun.

I am not talking about the Qur'an, but about the current situation. Can you answer or explain the situation with Abdul Rahman, Mehrosh?

Thank you.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Even though the question was to Mehrosh but as long as it's about Islam so i hope that you will not mind if i answered the question at hand.

Here in this thread we were discussing about "apostasy from Islam" and why the islamic state supposed to kill somebody who just changed his faith and what is the different between someone who work against islam or the one who just change his faith for personal reasons.

I noticed that everybody was trying to explain for the other the situation from his/her point of view but we forgot to introduce the basic aspects of this issue and it's root.

One of the famous misconceptions about Islam is that it was founded by a man called Mohammed before 1400 years a go neglecting the fact intentionally or unintentionally that the message of islam was revealed to Mohammed by the same God.

From the Qur’anic standpoint, Muslims, Christians, and Jews should have no difficulty agreeing that they all turn to the God of Abraham, despite their theological and ritual differences. Historical arguments between their faiths have never been over what name to call Abraham’s God.

Now, with the concept of secular countries everything have changed and God's law is no more applied to people's life (if they believe that they really got thier old law from God).

To be short and direct to the point. We have to examine now whether the punishment for apostasy in islam is strange and totally new or not.

To discover that you just have to google it and you will find the first abrahamic belief ever believe in it (in the Torah). Despite the fact that they no more use thier law whether because of rabbies or any other reasons but it's there and God if he changed his mind (God forbid) because human beings changed thiers so he is not worthy to be God, because he fell in the preasure of human needs which he is much far from it's weakness because he is perfect.

This passage is from the Torah: Deuteronomy13:6-10

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

So, the first thing we have to know is that this is not a new law whether we apply it in our life or not. (I didn't want to talk about other faiths because we are discussing about Islam but i just wanted to point out that it wasn't a new law but a normal law revealed by God to other prophets before Mohammed "peace be upon them all").

Now somehow i guess we are done with religious members in here but still there is more to come. (people who don't believe in God must go on to thier part now :D ).

Secondly, we have to know whether a secular "man made law" is better than God law or not.

Before that, we have to understand somthing in here before we go on, so when we judge somthing we will be so sure that we are fair in judging it.

I'll talk about myself a little bit just as an example. My first language is not english, it's only arabic and i have been studying in arabic, talking in arabic, living in a pure arabic community around me. How i gonna understand you if i can't speak english and people in here have no idea about my arabic language? think about it. For instance if you saw me doing somthing (wrong in your eyes) while i'm walking in the street and you were shocked that i did that thing but it was normal to me so how you gonna understand why i did that thing and on the other hand, how i gonna know why you are mad at me for doing so?

One of us must learn the language of the other one, i learnt english of course but in this case about Islam you don't have to learn islam but at least you have to know it's basic and it's values the same as you have your own values.

Therefore, we first must know these things:

- What is a muslim?
- The meaning of Ummah "community of Muslims".
- The Shariah "islamic law".
- The situation, opnions and circumstances about the issue at hand.
And more ....

After you know these basics, you will understand according to the islamic law why do they have such a law which condemn people who change thier faith.

I have hundereds of books in arabic in details about this issue and how scholars have different opnions about it in details and when we should apply it and when we shouldn't. Definitelty, no one will be able to understand it so i prefered to give you an example of a secualr country, let's say Canada and we will try to compare the islamic law and the law in this country for a better understanding for this topic.

You can't just jump and insult people for somthing which you can't understand but if you are really wise and you don't just want to put anyone's faith down with no reason so you have to know why they are doing it but before that to know, who are they? thier identity !!!

Here i have a link which have most of the ideas which i wanted to post in here (in english of course ;) ) and i hope that you will read everything in that link while having your :coffee: so you can understand everything and compare and believe me, if you didn't read everything in that link so you will not understand.

You have 2 ways here:

1- To pick what you want and leave the rest (you will misunderstand this issue more and more and do what suit you).
2- To read everything with understanding (you will understand in this case why?, when?, what? and all the other questions in your mind if you are really trying to understand).

Sorry, i know i talked alot but it's only for the sake of the thread.

This is the link which provide almost materials and articles cobined together to be like A to Z about "apostasy from Islam" having Canada as example to compare the law.

http://muslim-canada.org/APOSNOFR.HTM

By finishing reading, i hope that 90% of your questions would be answered there whether you agree with it or not, but if you have more questions which the link didn't cover so i'll be glad to answer your questions if i can, otherwise any other member will do so.

I hope that you will enjoy reading ...


Peace ... :)
 

mehrosh

Member
gnostic said:
The Afghan Christian fellow, Abdul Rahman, is not facing honor killing. He is actually facing the court system for leaving Islam and converting to Christianity, which most conservative Muslims would consider to be apostasy. I would guess that more liberal or very moderate Muslims believe that the apostate should not be punished.

This Rahman is not a Jew, so I don't think he has anything to do with the Jews you are talking about, Mehrosh. I don't see Rahman's situation as the same as those of the Jews, don't you think? His family, his parents and his friends are all Afghan Muslims. Therefore I don't see how your last reply is relevant here.

I don't know if this law in Afghanistan, to punish those who are in apostasy are old or new law, but the current Afghan government doesn't seem to have any inclination in changing the law.

Rahman didn't speak out against Islam. He just said that he had left Islam and converted to another religion in the hearing of some police, who arrested him. Even his family and parents have no sympathy for him, and hoped that he would die for disgracing Islam. The court judge seemed to have already made up his mind about giving him death sentence, before Rahman's trial had even begun.

I am not talking about the Qur'an, but about the current situation. Can you answer or explain the situation with Abdul Rahman, Mehrosh?

Thank you.

Hi,

Well, certainly I know he had nothing to do with the Jews, just wanted to answer from the Quran first, so that no one comes later on and asks "where in the Quran is it?"
The Truth, has answered your question, regarding the situation with Abdul Rahman....:clapif you have any other questions revolving, feel free, we are here for the answers.
Just a friendly advice Dear, never judge a book with it's cover..

Regards,
Mehrosh
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Not all people who leave their faith (apostasy) are involved in blasphemy and insulting their former religion.

I rather hear more from the case of Rahman and the law they used to punish people who leaves Islam. I am also more interested in today's situation then in the past.

I have heard that people in Afghanistan, who have converted to Christianity, have to do so in secrecy, by leaving the country, for they fear of punishment or being killed. Any individual leaving any religion, shouldn't have to fear for his or her life.

What this amount to, from Rahman's case, is that of religious persecution and intolerance. He shouldn't have to be treated in this fashion. If a person can't leave freely their religion, because of that sort of persecution, then you can't say that Islam, or any other religion for that matter, is a religion without compulsion.

And if a person leave Islam, he shouldn't be subjected to any Islamic law.

For any country that imprisoned people or sentenced to death for leaving their faith as treason is ridiculous in the extreme. It should be a matter between this person and the creator (whatever his name may be).

I suppose it is definition of apostasy. In the simpliest term, apostasy is a person who leave his faith. And if that is the case, that person should be able to do so freely and without compulsion. What the Afghan law, or any other law that punish a person, is not free and certainly with compulsion.
 
gnostic said:
I rather hear more from the case of Rahman and the law they used to punish people who leaves Islam. I am also more interested in today's situation then in the past.

It sounds like you're querying about Afghan tribal law, of which most of us knows nothing about.

gnostic said:
What this amount to, from Rahman's case, is that of religious persecution and intolerance. He shouldn't have to be treated in this fashion. If a person can't leave freely their religion, because of that sort of persecution, then you can't say that Islam, or any other religion for that matter, is a religion without compulsion.

You're exactly right. But this is an example of tribal law, not Islamic law. The Quran clearly states "there is no compulsion in religion." So any case of killing an apostate is anti-Quranic, and therefore anti-Islam.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
DakotaGypsy said:
Why does tribal law overrule Islamic law?

Where is the submission to Allah?

It's hard to understand when you expect from every single muslim to behave as what Allah wants us to be.

Despite the huge different between islamic law and others but your comment is like when you say all americans must be good guys because of the wonderful american law.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Fourteen Muslim countries prohibit conversion from Islam, and eight of those reserve the death penality for those who do. This perception that Islam somehow justifies such law extends beyond any one ethnic group, people, or society.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no separation between Islam and government, "supposed".

Therefore, it's not a personal belief so you can't become a muslim today and you change tomorrow because there are many things releated to a muslim man (i.e. marriage, hudood, parenthood, relationship, etc.).

It's like treason if someone left Islam.

It's the will of God and we are slaves of God and we do what he wants from us.

We can't fool ourselves and deny God's judging as the others deny thiers by picking what they like and throwing away what they dislike and i'm proud of my religion because it's perfect and just and once you don't understand things so that doesn't mean that it's wrong.

We can't decide what is legal and what is not because our tiny mind is so limited to be aware of everything around us and we don't even know until now our own bodies and how a little tiny mosquito can put you down in seconds if it had a virus or somthing getting it through your body.

Look to yourself and tell me how much you know about your own body, your own spirit(soul). human being is too arrogant even though he/she is so weak.

[53] Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?


[54] Ah indeed! are they in doubt concerning the Meeting with their Lord? Ah indeed! it is He that doth encompass all things! (Quran 41:53-54)

Yet, man still deny God for cheap material temporary life.

Knowing the truth and rejecting it is not like being unaware of this truth.

They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)" (Quran 17:85)

Do you know what happened in the first battle in Islam?

Most of Muslims were fighting whom?

Their fathers, brothers, cousins, relative, etc.

Why?

Because they were preventing them from being Muslims so when they couldn't but to defend themselves, then God gave them the order to fight defending their religion and saving their lives.

For more information please visit this website as i said before in my pervious post in case you havn't visited it yet.

http://muslim-canada.org/APOSNOFR.HTM
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh ya, i just remembred somthing regarding to the mosquito.

Do you know that the scholars found out that there are another tiny unseen creature live over the mosquito?

Google it and you will find that out easily.

So what? right?

Do you know that the Quran told us about this before 1400 years ago?

Who told Mohammed about this? God Almighty.

Read with me the verse ...

[2:26] GOD does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory*, from the tiny mosquito and what above (over) it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did GOD mean by such an allegory?" He misleads many thereby, and guides many thereby. But He never misleads thereby except the wicked, (Quran 2:26)

People at that time were saying "What means Allah by this similitude?" but they didn't know the answer, but today, we knew why he gave this sign as a miracle to us.

To show us his miracle through one of his weakest creature ever, just mosquito.



pic05.gif


Also read other facts about this tiny mosquito in the Quran in these links below:

http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=297

http://www.islamonline.net/English/ram2002/10/Quran/ontheQuran/article05.shtml


Then, God warned us from breaking his Covenant as the other nations before us did so.

[27] Those who break Allah's Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: these cause losses (only) to themselves. (Quran 2:27)


And Allah knows best ... :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now, let's see what some people might say, somthing like:

If God is love then why he command us to kill the one who leave the religion.

Let's answer this with example of what our father Abraham "peace be upon him" did.

When God ordered Abraham to slay his son Ismael if (just if) he was one of you guys he would say: What the heck? why shall i kill my son just because God say so in a vision ??? !!!

No, you don't trust God but Abraham does.

[101] So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.


[102] Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (the son) said: "O my father! do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one practising Patience and Constancy!"


[103] So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),


[104] We called out to him, "O Ibrahim!


[105] "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" thus indeed do We reward those who do right.


[106] For this was obviously a trial,

[107] And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:

The problem is that most of people don't know what is the meaning of submitting to the will of God, TO SUBMIT.

Abraham with his son Ishmael submitted thier will to thier creator without questioning it because it was indeed from God Almighty.

How we dare to compare our mind to God's wisdom?

The problem is that most of people think of this life as sort of eternal or somthing we have nothing beyond but they fail to see the promise in our real life in our real home in heaven.

Therefore, i believe, if all people on earth told me you are wrong and i knew that i'm doing what God really want from me so i just don't care.

This is what a belief is, call it blind, call it anything, as long as it's doesn't conflict with logic so why shouldn't i follow it.

Everything in Quran is logical, everything in Islam is logical as well.

I can't but to submit my will to God, to gain the guidance of God through his perfect law.

Finally, if i said somthing wrong so it's from my own weakness, mistakes and lacking for deep knowledge but if i said right so it's indeed because of the help of God Almighty the most great and merciful.


Peace ... :)
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Ibrahim Al-Alim said:
It sounds like you're querying about Afghan tribal law, of which most of us knows nothing about.
Does Afghan tribal law applies in civil court in Afghanistan?

They say they are following the Shariah Law, which they considered it to be treason to leave Islam for another religion, punishable by death. I am really not acquainted with Shariah Law. How much of the Shariah Law is taken from the Qur'an?

The situation in Afghanistan at the moment even the moderate Afghan clerics are calling for Rahman's death. There seemed general consensus from all Muslim clerics (meaning those clerics in Afghanistan) want a death sentence. If the courts find not guilty or government intervened, then they would kill Abdul Rahman themselves.

The Truth said:
It's like treason if someone left Islam.
But shouldn't it be Allah to decide what sort of punishment Abdul Rahman has committed.

If are really serious about there being no compulsion and no coercion to join Islam, then there should be no compulsion and no coercion for someone leaving Islam for another religion or becoming an atheist.

The only way for Rahman to save himself is to revert back to Islam. That, to my mind, is using compulsion and coercion, through the use of fear. If people of Islam are really serious about there are being no coercion or compulsion, then the Muslims in general should call upon those Afghan Muslim clerics to restrain themselves.

Only the Western leaders are expressing their outrage publicly. I have yet to hear any Muslim leaders voicing their protests over this Rahman's situation.

IF there is a probably with Rahman defection from Islam, shouldn't it be between him and Allah, not the religious, civil or military court? Certainly it shouldn't be the clerics to decide on Rahman's case.

The Truth said:
Despite the huge different between islamic law and others but your comment is like when you say all americans must be good guys because of the wonderful american law.
I don't trust the American law. I had thought of them as being the "good guys".
 
gnostic said:
How much of the Shariah Law is taken from the Qur'an?

The Shariah is mostly taken from the Hadith, not the Quran. The Quran is God's Word, the Hadith is merely Muhammad's traditions, a lot of which are unauthenticated.

gnostic said:
But shouldn't it be Allah to decide what sort of punishment Abdul Rahman has committed.

If are really serious about there being no compulsion and no coercion to join Islam, then there should be no compulsion and no coercion for someone leaving Islam for another religion or becoming an atheist.

The only way for Rahman to save himself is to revert back to Islam. That, to my mind, is using compulsion and coercion, through the use of fear. If people of Islam are really serious about there are being no coercion or compulsion, then the Muslims in general should call upon those Afghan Muslim clerics to restrain themselves.

Only the Western leaders are expressing their outrage publicly. I have yet to hear any Muslim leaders voicing their protests over this Rahman's situation.

IF there is a probably with Rahman defection from Islam, shouldn't it be between him and Allah, not the religious, civil or military court? Certainly it shouldn't be the clerics to decide on Rahman's case.

Most "Western" Muslims agree with you entirely. It's mainly the blind followers of the Shariah, so focused on ancient tribal custom, that forget the Greater Book - the Quran. Nothing in the Quran addresses apostasy, so traditionalists revert to interpretation of the Hadith. Many of the Hadith are congruent with the peaceful language of the Quran, but some reflect the ancient violence of 7th-century Arabia, and those seem to be making all of the headlines these days. Those few Hadith provide the "legal" justification for political expression, which is mostly violent, and directed at the West, or Western interests and way of life. It's an extremely complex cultural issue, embedded in centuries of custom, trying to assert itself against modern society.
 
gnostic said:
IF there is a probably with Rahman defection from Islam, shouldn't it be between him and Allah, not the religious, civil or military court? Certainly it shouldn't be the clerics to decide on Rahman's case.

I agree with your statement, but you are mistakenly applying Western values of separation of church and state, whereas in much of Islam, the Church (mosque) IS the State. State Law is the Shariah, which serves to ajudicate (sp?) all of life's affairs, whether it's a marriage, the theft of an apple, or an apostate.
 

DakotaGypsy

Active Member
This Atheist stands firmly in support of separation of church and state.

We shall prevail. The evils of religion shall be overcome.
 
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