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Question to Christian Friends

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Greetings and Peace to All:

I just read the following quote from Isaiah 29:12 the King James Version:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." (KJV)

What is the meaning of this verse?

Thanks and all the best.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Cordoba said:
Greetings and Peace to All:

I just read the following quote from Isaiah 29:12 the King James Version:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." (KJV)

What is the meaning of this verse?

Thanks and all the best.

Wow. I could say a lot about this verse and so could the LDS community. I hope one of them chimes in, because I am not sure the exact meaning of this.
 
"The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, 'Read this, please.' And he says, 'I cannot, for it is sealed.' Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, 'Read this, please.' And he says, 'I am not literate.' " Isaiah 29:11-12 (NKJV)

You asked about verse 12 specifically, but including verse 11 gives a more full picture of what is being talked about. Isaiah is comparing the lack of knowledge and wisdom that the Jews have, to a scenario where someone who is literate cannot read a book. The Jews have a lack of understanding because God has sealed it from them due to their lack of devotion to Him. Isaiah goes on in verses 13-14:

"Therefore the LORD said: 'Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward me is taught by the commandment of men, Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work among these people, a marvelous work and a wonder; for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.' "

Due to the fact that the Jews' hearts had strayed from God, he dimmed their knowledge...this is why, in the example of the literate man, he says, "it is sealed" when he is asked to read a book. The Jews are a "literate" people, they were chosen specially by God and God did many wonder things through them and for them...However, they could no longer "read" (i.e. understand God's truths) beause their hearts had strayed from the One True God. The moral of the story? Stay wholly devoted to God, and His truths will not be hidden from you! :)

FerventGodSeeker
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Thank you very much for that excellent explanation, Fervent God Seeker.

It's now very clear.

Peace and all the best.
 

may

Well-Known Member
yes i agree faithfulness leads to many blessings even the revealing of secrets but unfaithfulness does not


(Matthew 13:11) In reply he said: "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.
(Colossians 1:26) the sacred secret that was hidden from the past systems of things and from the past generations. But now it has been made manifest to his holy ones,
(1 Corinthians 2:10) For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.
(Ephesians 1:9) in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
beckysoup61 said:
Wow. I could say a lot about this verse and so could the LDS community. I hope one of them chimes in, because I am not sure the exact meaning of this.
I'm going to wait and see if Deep Shadow responds. If he does, he will be able to do a better job than all of the rest of us put together! My main reason for not responding is that I'm not really in the mood for another anti-Mormon thread right now, and I know that's where the LDS perspective on this scripture will take us.
 
Isaiah is one of the prophets that one person can spend a whole lifetime on and not even come close to knowing everything. chapter 29 talk about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the chapter as a whole shows the foretelling of the lds church. the easiest one to describe is Isaiah chapter two verse two kjv:

and it shall came to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

first mountain is the same as temple; it is supported by additional bible text; I’m not going to get into it now...

second top of the mountain: Utah means top of the mountain, also exalted people and mighty people... Utah is also an insults to the Mormon’s when they wanted to be called a state the name that they wanted is Deserit in respect to the desert and the Lord god.

so the temple of the LORD's house is to be established in Utah...

get it so far?

and all nations shall flow unto it... the salt lake temple is the second or third place that dignitaries go to beside Washington dc... and is one of the top tuerist places to go in the U.S. for outsiders

there is a lot more in this verse that can be explained...

i believe a saint came up with the same conclusion as for as mountain is the same as temple but don't quote me on it... but I do know that Moses referred to temple as a mountain

but to get my point that chapter 29 as a whole you can write a all you want on it and not get all that it means and still miss critical points that it has… also Isaiah has to be learned though guidance form the holy spirit.

one problem that is faced with Isaiah is that Rome tore apart the bible and took a lot out of it so to get everything in the old testament is going to be hard, unless you go to the Joseph smith revelation of the bible…

a side note Isaiah talks about some of the modes of transpiration that we use to day. fyi
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
the truth be with us said:
Isaiah is one of the prophets that one person can spend a whole lifetime on and not even come close to knowing everything. chapter 29 talk about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the chapter as a whole shows the foretelling of the lds church. the easiest one to describe is Isaiah chapter two verse two kjv:

and it shall came to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

first mountain is the same as temple; it is supported by additional bible text; I’m not going to get into it now...

second top of the mountain: Utah means top of the mountain, also exalted people and mighty people... Utah is also an insults to the Mormon’s when they wanted to be called a state the name that they wanted is Deserit in respect to the desert and the Lord god.

so the temple of the LORD's house is to be established in Utah...

get it so far?

and all nations shall flow unto it... the salt lake temple is the second or third place that dignitaries go to beside Washington dc... and is one of the top tuerist places to go in the U.S. for outsiders

there is a lot more in this verse that can be explained...

i believe a saint came up with the same conclusion as for as mountain is the same as temple but don't quote me on it... but I do know that Moses referred to temple as a mountain

but to get my point that chapter 29 as a whole you can write a all you want on it and not get all that it means and still miss critical points that it has… also Isaiah has to be learned though guidance form the holy spirit.

one problem that is faced with Isaiah is that Rome tore apart the bible and took a lot out of it so to get everything in the old testament is going to be hard, unless you go to the Joseph smith revelation of the bible…

a side note Isaiah talks about some of the modes of transpiration that we use to day. fyi
Gee, the only thing you didn't actually cover was the answer to the question. :D
 
the thing is i did... the one verse isn't enough to explain or answer the question you would have to look at the whole chapter in order to understand that verse then answer the question and i don't want to do it in written form for this kind of discussion. it means many things and repeats and dose the chapter two verse two dose. not only do you have to look at history but the meaning around the time that it is written. once you take that into concentration then you can fully answer the question. there is one simple answer in lds history but then there is a deeper meaning that follows chiasmus. which i don't want to get into too long to explane!!! lol
 

may

Well-Known Member
the truth be with us said:
so to get everything in the old testament is going to be hard, unless you go to the Joseph smith revelation of the bible…
for those who have been given insight and understanding from Jehovah, they only need the bible , because Jehovah reveals many things to his faithful ones
 

silvermoon383

Well-Known Member
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. -Isaiah 29:11 - 12

These 2 verses are alluding to the Book of Mormon. When Joseph Smith recieved the plates he had a 4th grade education, and knew absolutly nothing about ancient languages. Despite this, with the help and gift of God, he was able to translate the plates. Martin Harris, who was acting as scribe, wanted to show some of the characters and their translation to show to famus linguists. Joseph copied down several of the characters found on the plates, along with the translation (they were from a portion they had already translated).

Martin traveled to New York and met with Dr. Charles Anthon, who was considered THE guy for translation of anything ancient in the early 1800's (this visit occured in 1828). After examining the characters and the accompanying translation, Dr. Anthon stated that they were authentic and that the translation was correct.

On his way out, Dr. Anthon asked Mr. Harris where Joseph had gotten the plates in the first place, and Mr. Harris told him the story of Moroni's visits. Anthon then asked for the certificate back, and tore it up in front of Martin. He told Martin that he was the victim of fraud and that he should bring the plates to him. Martin explained that he couldn't because they were sealed. Dr. Charles Anthon's response was thus-

"I can not read a sealed book."

In summary. a sealed book was delivered by an angel to an unlearned man, who was able to read and translate it for all the world. When a learned man tried to read, he could not, stating that he couldn't read a sealed book.

This prophecey of Isaiah was fulfilled in February 1828.
 

may

Well-Known Member
(Isaiah 11:9) They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Greetings to All:

I have a second question, if I may.

What do you think of The Gospel of Thomas?

http://www.gospelthomas.com/

If anybody has read it, or read part of it, do you think it reflects the teachings of Jesus, peace be upon him?

Do some churches include this Gospel in their readings?

Thanks and all the best.
 

ΩRôghênΩ

Disciple of Light
i dont believe that is is biblically accurate, but it provides alot of things which i elieve were in accordance to jesus teachings in the 4 gospels, and it incorporates alot of foundation for christian mysticism
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
FerventGodSeeker said:
Isaiah is comparing the lack of knowledge and wisdom that the Jews have, to a scenario where someone who is literate cannot read a book. The Jews have a lack of understanding because God has sealed it from them due to their lack of devotion to Him. Isaiah goes on in verses 13-14:
Read again. He is not talking about the Jews, but those who oppose the teachings of God.

Jesus quoted Vs 13 both in Matthew and Mark:

Matthew 15:1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6 he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' "
NIV

Mark 7:1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2 saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)

5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"
6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that." NIV
 
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