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Christians - What do you think of this chart?

Mister_T said:
My question is why is the reward of Heaven the focus of so many churches? How 'bout a chart of sacrificial love? Where's the chart that shows how to help the needy and feed the poor?

It is the focus of so many churches because it is a popular and highly appealing concept. For churches who teach salvation by faith alone, along with "once-saved-always saved" soteriology, it is extremely attractive and popular to offer people a guaranteed ticket into eternal bliss, with no faithfulness, obedience, or perseverance on our part.

"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." James 2:24
 

dorcas3000

Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
At the Judgement, we are separated as "sheep" and "goats"...see Matthew 25:31-46

I agree with you, but that image on the OP shows the "great gulf" separating the 'good' and 'bad'...and THEN the judgement. Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but it seems that the judgment really doesn't do much since everyone is already separated. It implies that we are judged twice - once at death and once at the resurrection, which makes no sense.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree with you, but that image on the OP shows the "great gulf" separating the 'good' and 'bad'...and THEN the judgement. Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but it seems that the judgment really doesn't do much since everyone is already separated. It implies that we are judged twice - once at death and once at the resurrection, which makes no sense
It comes from the parable of Lazarus(I beleive) and the rich man...
 
dorcas3000 said:
I agree with you, but that image on the OP shows the "great gulf" separating the 'good' and 'bad'...and THEN the judgement. Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but it seems that the judgment really doesn't do much since everyone is already separated. It implies that we are judged twice - once at death and once at the resurrection, which makes no sense.

When we speak of the Final Judgement (i.e., Matthew 25), we're speaking of a resurrection: some to eternal life, some to eternal condemnation. It's basic Christian teaching that, when a person dies, they either go to Heaven or Hell. However, when a person dies now, they don't take their bodies with them. I believe the purpose of the Final Judgement of Matthew 25 is to finalize the Judgement for all people of all times...God will resurrect everyone, whether saved or condemned, and then finalize it. We know some people will be shocked at God's judgement (Matthew 7:22-23). However, someone who is in Hell before the final resurrection will already be in torment, and know that they are condemned (see Luke 16). So those people who a resurrected to condemnation cannot be the "shocked people". So this group must be people who have never died, in other words, are still alive when Christ returns, and thus don't yet know their eternal fate.
So, I don't know if that is being "judged twice" (once at death and again at the Second Coming of Christ), since those in Hell have already been judged. Their fate is simply finalized by a last resurrection to judgement. Hope that makes some sense.

FerventGodSeeker
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
It is the focus of so many churches because it is a popular and highly appealing concept. For churches who teach salvation by faith alone, along with "once-saved-always saved" soteriology, it is extremely attractive and popular to offer people a guaranteed ticket into eternal bliss, with no faithfulness, obedience, or perseverance on our part.

"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." James 2:24

Oh I agree.

It just seems to me that sometimes peoples own salvation eclipses other things that need their attention. If I saw a chart on how to love a person or how to help those in despair along side this salvation chart, that would put a smile on my face:)
 

dorcas3000

Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
We know some people will be shocked at God's judgement (Matthew 7:22-23). However, someone who is in Hell before the final resurrection will already be in torment, and know that they are condemned (see Luke 16). So those people who a resurrected to condemnation cannot be the "shocked people".
FerventGodSeeker

WHOA WHOA WHOA....you're taking the reference to Hell in Luke 16 as a reference to an actual 'place of torment'?! Um, that's a parable. How many other parables do you take literally, if I may ask? Parables have a point. The point of the parable is verse 31. It seems rational to me that verse 23 is meant to set up a story that people in this time understand. I mean, if everyone believes in Hades, it would make sense for Jesus to reference it when trying to illustrate a point. That doesn't make it true though.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Mister_T said:
Oh I agree.

It just seems to me that sometimes peoples own salvation eclipses other things that need their attention. If I saw a chart on how to love a person or how to help those in despair along side this salvation chart, that would put a smile on my face:)

I agree. I think that, many times, Christians are so busy stumbling over one aother in order to "win the prize" for themselves that they don't spend enough time and energy doing what Jesus asked us to do...feed his sheep.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Squirt said:
Your mailbox is full. So, why are you wasting your hard-earned money on buying me beers anyway? :confused: Is this some sort of a peace offering?

It's no waste of money to buy a friend a beer, especially when you know that they'll enjoy it. :curtsy:

PM emptied.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
sojourner said:
I agree. I think that, many times, Christians are so busy stumbling over one aother in order to "win the prize" for themselves that they don't spend enough time and energy doing what Jesus asked us to do...feed his sheep.

Exactly. :clap
 
dorcas3000 said:
WHOA WHOA WHOA....you're taking the reference to Hell in Luke 16 as a reference to an actual 'place of torment'?! Um, that's a parable. How many other parables do you take literally, if I may ask? Parables have a point. The point of the parable is verse 31. It seems rational to me that verse 23 is meant to set up a story that people in this time understand. I mean, if everyone believes in Hades, it would make sense for Jesus to reference it when trying to illustrate a point. That doesn't make it true though.

Why would Jesus use a false religious concept (if you're assuming that a literal Hell is false, and, as you said, the Jews believed in it) to convey His teachings? That doesn't make any sense. Jesus made a point of DISTINGUISHING himself theologically from teaching of His day that was just "popular" (Matthew 5:38-48). If you look at Biblical parables, they are stories which, as you said, have a point--they illustrate a larger principle. But the reason that they are able to make a logical parallel to larger spiritual truths is because they are concrete, realistic situations. If you notice, Jesus doesn't insert in His parables any giant miraculous occurences or abstract details...they are realistic stories which people could relate to, such as seeds being sown, a shining lamp, a fig tree, a lost sheep, etc etc. You're suggesting that Jesus would insert in one of His parables some abstract, false religious concept which isn't even realistic...that simply doesn't align with the Biblical picture of what a parable is.

FerventGodSeeker
 
angellous_evangellous said:
I disagree. I've seen stuff like this used in evangelism.

Take your pick:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

Obviously evangelistic tracts, etc, can and often do explain Heaven and Hell, and how one can be saved from Hell, etc., but it's typically not in the type of dry, systematic, flow chart sort of format. Mayeb you have, but I haven't, and I think if a non-Christian was given that chart for evangelistic purposes, it wouldn't be persuasive at all, it would just be an informational chart about what some Christians happen to believe. There may be some tracts out there like it, but I haven't seen any, and I doubt they're very common
 

dorcas3000

Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
Why would Jesus use a false religious concept (if you're assuming that a literal Hell is false, and, as you said, the Jews believed in it) to convey His teachings? That doesn't make any sense. Jesus made a point of DISTINGUISHING himself theologically from teaching of His day that was just "popular" (Matthew 5:38-48). If you look at Biblical parables, they are stories which, as you said, have a point--they illustrate a larger principle. But the reason that they are able to make a logical parallel to larger spiritual truths is because they are concrete, realistic situations. If you notice, Jesus doesn't insert in His parables any giant miraculous occurences or abstract details...they are realistic stories which people could relate to, such as seeds being sown, a shining lamp, a fig tree, a lost sheep, etc etc. You're suggesting that Jesus would insert in one of His parables some abstract, false religious concept which isn't even realistic...that simply doesn't align with the Biblical picture of what a parable is.

FerventGodSeeker

So is Abraham in charge of this first 'judgement' then? I mean, if you're going to take the parable literally then you should take it all literally, right?

hmmmm i find this interesting
 
dorcas3000 said:
So is Abraham in charge of this first 'judgement' then? I mean, if you're going to take the parable literally then you should take it all literally, right?

hmmmm i find this interesting

What part of the Lazarus parable puts Abraham "in charge" of any judgement? Lazarus simply talks to Abraham...why does that need to be metaphorical? I assume you at least concede the possibility that we will talk to people in the next life, don't you?

FerventGodSeeker
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
What part of the Lazarus parable puts Abraham "in charge" of any judgement?

FerventGodSeeker
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, Sans Serif]And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

:D
[/FONT]
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
dorcas3000 said:
I agree with you, but that image on the OP shows the "great gulf" separating the 'good' and 'bad'...and THEN the judgement. Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but it seems that the judgment really doesn't do much since everyone is already separated. It implies that we are judged twice - once at death and once at the resurrection, which makes no sense.
It makes sense according to LDS theology. We believe in a sort of preliminary judgment where the spirits of the righteous are separated from the spirits of the wicked. The righteous will await the resurrection in Paradise and the wicked will await the resurrection in Prison. The wicked will still be given the opportunity to repent of their sins while there, and those who never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ taught during their lifetimes will have the chance to both hear it and accept or reject it. Then, when at last we are resurrected and stand before God to be judged (as described in Revelation), no one will be able to say that they never had the chance to accept Christ.
 
Mister_T said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, Sans Serif]And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

:D
[/FONT]

Ok, but what does Abraham say in response to that? "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass to you from here cannot, not can those from there pass to us." (Luek 16:25-26) Abraham himself admits he has no power to fulfill the rich man's request.
And besides that, even if Abraham could have theoretically "had mercy" on him, "having mercy" on someone doesn't mean you're in charge of judging them...the whole reason the rich man was in torment was because he had already been judged. The rich man was simply asking for his torment to be alleviated, and Abraham couldn't even do that. That doesn't sound very "in charge" to me.

FerventGodSeeker
 

Baerly

Active Member
Linus said:
http://www.folsomchurch.com/charts/Dead.PDF

You'll need adobe reader in order to view it...

Any thoughts?


The chart harmonized with all bible scriptures from what I could tell. I have a chart similar to that one on my wall. Truth will offend many people if their concept of truth does not harmonize with the bible.

The question is, which will we be judged by in the end,our opinion of what the bible says OR what the bible actually says? (John 12:48)(Mark 4:24)(1Peter 4:11)
 

Baerly

Active Member
dorcas3000 said:
I agree with you, but that image on the OP shows the "great gulf" separating the 'good' and 'bad'...and THEN the judgement. Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but it seems that the judgment really doesn't do much since everyone is already separated. It implies that we are judged twice - once at death and once at the resurrection, which makes no sense.


According to (Acts 13:46) those who end up in torment before the final judgment,do so because they have judged themselves unworthy of eternal life by rejecting the word of God.

It has been said it is similar to when a person goes to jail and then later he is finally sentenced by the judge to his term of imprisonment. in love Baerly
 

Baerly

Active Member
dorcas3000 said:
WHOA WHOA WHOA....you're taking the reference to Hell in Luke 16 as a reference to an actual 'place of torment'?! Um, that's a parable. How many other parables do you take literally, if I may ask? Parables have a point. The point of the parable is verse 31. It seems rational to me that verse 23 is meant to set up a story that people in this time understand. I mean, if everyone believes in Hades, it would make sense for Jesus to reference it when trying to illustrate a point. That doesn't make it true though.

I have heard that (Luke 16) is a parable many times from people,but can you show me in the bible where Jesus said this is a parable? Many times when he told a parable he would say he was about to speak a parable to the people. In (Luke 16:19) we have the words of Jesus saying There was a rich man and there was a certain beggar named LAZARUS. Please tell me how many times Jesus told a parable and then named the person in the parable. This is not a parable at all.but a true story of people living and dying and going to a real place of Paradise and Torment. Not only did he name Lazarus,but Abraham is in this story,so is Moses. No doubt this is a true story. But if it was a parable it would still teach the exact same thing. - in love Baerly
 
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