The second coming of Jesus Christ - Is this arguement valid?

The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

We went to war with Iraq because of the administrations devout religious beliefs. Devout Christians believe that God cannot establish His Son in Israel as King of the Jews unless the Jews are living in Palestine, their promised homeland, so it is God's plan to restore the Jews to Palestine before the Second Coming of Christ. Their belief in God influences the decisions and policies within the Middle East and specifically the war with Iraq; based on what the Bible has to say about The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ?

"But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers." (Jeremiah 16:15)


"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God." (Amos 9:14-15)

This question will never be asked or even addressed, because it would ignite a true religious war between Christians and Muslims. I believe the war in Iraq was not about terrorism, oil, U.S. interests, or the crimes Saddam Hussein has committed against his people. It is clear that today’s administration is driven by Religion and Faith.

When the current administration talks about being “visionary”, they are talking about supporting Israel and the Jews so that the prophecy of “The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ” can be fulfilled. All the main players in the Iraq War have Religious interests at stake.

Fact: George Bush is a Born-Again Christian.

Fact: Condoleezza Rice is a devout Christian that puts her faith in God.

Fact: Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz; being Jewish, must support Israel.

Fact: Tony Blair is a devout Christian.

Fact: Saddam Hussein and his sons fully supported the Palestinians.

Fact: In the first Gulf War, the majority of missiles were directed at Israel.

Fact: In the year 2010 the Palestinians will out number the Jews within Israel. When that happens, the Palestinians will demand one man one vote. If they were allowed one man one vote, then the Jews would no longer rule Israel.

Fact: “Israel's demographic time bomb” Professor Sofer testified that unless the demographic problem is solved, "our country is finished in 17 years, and there will be a collapse. Saddam and his sons would have supported and fought (with WMD if they had them by then) for the Palestinians right to one man one vote and the international community would also have to support the one man one vote of the Palestinians. In the end, the Jews would no longer control Israel.

If the Jews no longer control Israel, then the prophecy of “The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ” can NOT be fulfilled according to the Bible and Koran.
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/01/911-pretext-for-oil-or-jesus.html

greatcalgarian said:

one vote of the Palestinians. In the end, the Jews would no longer control Israel.

If the Jews no longer control Israel, then the prophecy of “The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ” can NOT be fulfilled according to the Bible and Koran.
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/01/911-pretext-for-oil-or-jesus.htmlhttp://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/01/911-pretext-for-oil-or-jesus.html

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Nah, not true. If you believe in God, then guess what, He can do anything. So what if the Jews no longer control Israel, God can and will find away around it and knew about it the whole time, He is all-knowing, you know?

greatcalgarian said:

We went to war with Iraq because of the administrations devout religious beliefs.

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You make some excellent prophetic points in the rest of your post, but I'm afraid I don't agree with your premise.

I think we went to war with Iraq for far more mundane reasons. They include, but are not limited to: 1. Saddam tried to kill the Prez Daddy, and the Prez was looking for his revenge. 2. There was a lot of money to be made by invading Iraq. 3. Certain elements of the 1st Bush Admin wanted to "finish the job" the Prez' Dad had stopped. 4. We wanted permanent bases in the area.

I don't think religion even entered into the picture, at least not for the powers that be. Religion may have provided a tool to mobilise certain sectors of their political base, though.

greatcalgarian said:

Devout Christians believe that God cannot establish His Son in Israel as King of the Jews unless the Jews are living in Palestine, their promised homeland, so it is God's plan to restore the Jews to Palestine before the Second Coming of Christ.

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This view is really only true of certain fundamentalist Protestants. The vast majority of Christians do not have any such belief with regards to Israel.

James

Wow, that's a great post, now I can argue about something else to all of my friends thanx

greatcalgarian said:

The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

We went to war with Iraq because of the administrations devout religious beliefs. Devout Christians believe that God cannot establish His Son in Israel as King of the Jews unless the Jews are living in Palestine, their promised homeland, so it is God's plan to restore the Jews to Palestine before the Second Coming of Christ. Their belief in God influences the decisions and policies within the Middle East and specifically the war with Iraq; based on what the Bible has to say about The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ?

"But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers." (Jeremiah 16:15)


"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God." (Amos 9:14-15)

This question will never be asked or even addressed, because it would ignite a true religious war between Christians and Muslims. I believe the war in Iraq was not about terrorism, oil, U.S. interests, or the crimes Saddam Hussein has committed against his people. It is clear that today’s administration is driven by Religion and Faith.

When the current administration talks about being “visionary”, they are talking about supporting Israel and the Jews so that the prophecy of “The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ” can be fulfilled. All the main players in the Iraq War have Religious interests at stake.

Fact: George Bush is a Born-Again Christian.

Fact: Condoleezza Rice is a devout Christian that puts her faith in God.

Fact: Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz; being Jewish, must support Israel.

Fact: Tony Blair is a devout Christian.

Fact: Saddam Hussein and his sons fully supported the Palestinians.

Fact: In the first Gulf War, the majority of missiles were directed at Israel.

Fact: In the year 2010 the Palestinians will out number the Jews within Israel. When that happens, the Palestinians will demand one man one vote. If they were allowed one man one vote, then the Jews would no longer rule Israel.

Fact: “Israel's demographic time bomb” Professor Sofer testified that unless the demographic problem is solved, "our country is finished in 17 years, and there will be a collapse. Saddam and his sons would have supported and fought (with WMD if they had them by then) for the Palestinians right to one man one vote and the international community would also have to support the one man one vote of the Palestinians. In the end, the Jews would no longer control Israel.

If the Jews no longer control Israel, then the prophecy of “The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ” can NOT be fulfilled according to the Bible and Koran.
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/01/911-pretext-for-oil-or-jesus.htmlhttp://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/01/911-pretext-for-oil-or-jesus.html

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I can see how one would come to this conclusion. But i do not believe that any of the people concerned are true Christians. And don't worry about God. God knows all the schemes of the crafty. And He can work their plans into His eternal plan. Nothing is going to catch God by surprise God often uses the evil intentions of men by turning their outcomes to work for the Good.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

greatcalgarian said:

I believe the war in Iraq was not about terrorism, oil, U.S. interests, or the crimes Saddam Hussein has committed against his people. It is clear that today’s administration is driven by Religion and Faith.

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We can argue that the war is about a lot of things, but I cannot be convinced that it is about religion. That argument simply cannot be supported by anything that I know about the war, nor is it supported by anything that you have written in the OP.

If the Jews no longer control Israel, then the prophecy of “The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ” can NOT be fulfilled according to the Bible and Koran.
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/01/911-pretext-for-oil-or-jesus.htmlhttp://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/01/911-pretext-for-oil-or-jesus.html[/quote

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Myth and history do not intersect like this.

You forget tht the Muslims look to the return of Christ as well. It is foretold specifically in the Qur'an.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

You forget tht the Muslims look to the return of Christ as well. It is foretold specifically in the Qur'an.

Regards,
Scott

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This is news to me. Which part of the Quran? I thought Muslim accept Christ as a prophet, not God. So why are they expecting Christ, a prophet to return? Do they also expect Mohamed to return together with Christ, holding hand in hand?:slap:

You state this all under the premise that the second coming will be soon...if you look at how this world has changed over time there is no telling how these things will be acomplished or even better when...God knows what will happen and on what day..if you place trust in that the rest is of no real consequence.

Personally I do not believe Bush did any of this on religious beliefs...I voted for him I (still feel he was the best choice in candidate running at the time)...I feel as some others do that he went into Iraq over deals made by his dad during his term in office and the current Bush is just following through with promises of his dad and not his 'FATHER'...I do feel he is strong in his religious beliefs to a point but he needs to re-evaluate a few things.

greatcalgarian said:

This is news to me. Which part of the Quran? I thought Muslim accept Christ as a prophet, not God. So why are they expecting Christ, a prophet to return? Do they also expect Mohamed to return together with Christ, holding hand in hand?:slap:

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The short answer is Muslims believe in Christ, who said He would return. Since Muhammad did not claim this station, the Return would have to happen after Muhammad. And no, they don't expect Christ to return hand in hand with anyone. You've been paying too much attention to the buzz about Brokeback Mountain, methinks.

What does it matter if they believe Christ was God or Christ as a prophet? They *believe* him, which is kinda the point.

I mean, why would the Jews expect Elijah (Elias) to return, if he was also a prophet, and not God? Um...because prophecy in their Bible says so, maybe?

Belief in the Last Day is essential to Muslim faith. Or, as the Quran says repeatedly:

Verily, they who believe, and the Jews, and the
Sabeites, and the Christians -- whoever of them believeth in God and in the Last Day, and doth what is right, on them shall Come no fear, neither shall they be put to grief. (Qur'án 5:73)

There are a number of references to 1260 or "the year '60" in Muslim prophetic texts as well, which is interesting considering the way the same 1260 shows up all over Revelation.

For more info Wikipedia's stuff on Islamic Eschatology is a decent overview.

This site may also be of some interest:

http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html

greatcalgarian said:

Fact: Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz; being Jewish, must support Israel.

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Can you develop mentally a little bit?

AlanGurvey said:

Can you develop mentally a little bit?

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My apology, the thread posti was plagarized from some where (forgot to place the whole thing in quotation), and I did not really check through all statements in that web page. The purpose is just to stimulate the thought whether this is the possible reason.

Booko said:

http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html

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Very interesting. Jesus is going to get married finally.:biglaugh:

III. The Blessings of Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) (A.S.)
1 Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will descend and stay on earth.
2 His descension will be in the last era of the Ummat.
3 He will be a just ruler and a fair judge.
4 His ummat will be the Khalifa (deputies) of Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam).
5 He will act himself and instruct others on the Qur'an and Hadith (Shariat/Tradition of Islam).
6 He will lead people in Salaat (Prayer).
7 He will stay on earth for a period of 40 years after descending. The will be the best era of the Ummat after the first era of Islam.
8 Allah will protect his companions from Jahannam.
9 Those who will save the Deen of Islam by associating themselves with Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will be amongst the most loved by Allah Ta'ala.
10 During this period all other religions and mazhabs besides Islam will perish, hence there will be no kuffaars (non-believers) in the world.
11 Jihad will be stopped.
12 No Khiraaj will be taken.
13 Nor Jizya (protection tax) money from the kafirs (non-believers)
14 Wealth and property will be in surplus to such an extent that there will be no one to accept the wealth of the other (everyone will be independent).
15 Receiving Zakaat (Alms-giving, Charity to poor) and Saadaqa will be discarded (as there will be no poor to receive them!).
16 The people will love the sajda (prostration to God) more than the world and what it consists of.
17 All types of Deeni (religious) and worldly blessings will descend on earth (many halaal (lawful) things will be created).
18 There will be peace, harmony and tranquility during the time of Hadhrat Isa (A.S.)'s stay in the world.
19 There will be no animosity for a period of seven years, even between two persons.
20 All hearts will be free from miserliness, envy, hatred, malice and jealousy.
21 For a period of forty years no one will fall ill or die.
22 Venom will be taken out of all venomous animals.
23 Snakes and scorpions will not harm anyone to the extent that if a child put his hand in its mouth, he will not be harmed.
24 Will animals will not harm anyone.
25 If a man will pass a lion, he will not be troubled or harmed, or even if any girl will open its mouth to test if it will do anything.
26 The camels will graze among lions, cheetahs with cattle and the jackals with goats.
27 The fertility of the land will increase to such an extent that even if a seed is planted in a hard rock, it will sprout.
28 A pomegranate will be so huge that a jamaat will be able to eat it and the people will use its peel as shade.
29 There will be so much barakaat (blessing) in milk that a camel will suffice for a huge jamaat, a cow for a tribe and a goat for a family.
30 In short, life will be most pleasant after the descension of Jesus (A.S.).
His Marriage, Death and Deputies
After his descension on earth, Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will marry. He will have children, and he will remain on earth 19 years after marriage. He will pass away and Muslims will perform his Janaza Salaat and bury him net to Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam). (Tirmidhi)

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AlanGurvey said:

Can you develop mentally a little bit?

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Okay he did not support Israel, but is Anti-China

According to Mann however; "It was on China that Wolfowitz launched his boldest challenge to the established order." Ever since Nixon and Kissinger had gone to China in the early 70s it had been U.S. policy to make concessions to China as an essential Cold War ally. The Chinese were now pushing for the U.S. to end arms sales to Taiwan and Wolfowitz used this as an opportunity to undermine the Kissingerian policy. Wolfowitz advocated a unilateralist policy claiming that the U.S. didn’t need China’s assistance, and in fact that Chinese needed the U.S. to protect them against the far more likely prospect of a Soviet invasion of China. Wolfowitz soon came into conflict with U.S. Secretary of State Alexander Haig, who had been Kissinger’s assistant at the time of the visits to China

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Perhaps following his way, everything made in China found in US now should be destroyed

Wolfowitz returned to government from 2001-05 under U.S. President George W. Bush serving as U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense reporting to U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Almost immediately upon confirmation he leapt into action in May 2001 during the height of Sino-American tensions that surrounded the U.S.-China Spy Plane Incident. Wolfowitz defused a very tricky situation when he ordered the recall and destruction of 600,000 Chinese-made berets that had been issued to troops stating "U.S. troops shall not wear berets made in China"[6].

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AlanGurvey said:

Can you develop mentally a little bit?

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Wikipedia:

<H2>Political views

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Wolfowitz is considered by many political analysts a neoconservative and possibly a Straussian known for his passionate pro-Israel advocacy and staunch support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
[edit]
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/
Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Despite his support for Israel Wolfowitz is one of the few neoconservatives associated with Bush administration to have endorsed the creation of a Palestinian state. Wolfowitz has acknowledged the sufferings of the Palestinian people in their conflict with Israel, and in 2002 was heckled for expressing such views at a pro-Israel rally.

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</H2>

Perhaps a reason or part of the reason we went to war with Iraq was religious, but not all. But whatever, I did want to say that mere man cannot DO anything to MAKE the Second Coming occur or not occur. God is in complete control and He will do as He wills when he will.

greatcalgarian said:

Very interesting. Jesus is going to get married finally.:biglaugh:

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Wow...for some reason I missed the humor in that. Is Mary Magdalene going to return also, I wonder? <ducking>

joeboonda said:

Perhaps a reason or part of the reason we went to war with Iraq was religious, but not all. But whatever, I did want to say that mere man cannot DO anything to MAKE the Second Coming occur or not occur. God is in complete control and He will do as He wills when he will.

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The arguement is that God who is incomplete control is sending his holy spirit to guide those men in the White House, in Israel government etc to fulfill the prophecy, and hence allow the Second Coming to occur.
It is just the believe that prayer can make things happen. So obeying God's command, and helping the happening of the prerequisite as prophecized in the bible may bring forward the desired outcome of the Second Coming.
The question is: Is this right for a true believer of Bible to do?

greatcalgarian said:

The arguement is that God who is incomplete control is sending his holy spirit to guide those men in the White House, in Israel government etc to fulfill the prophecy, and hence allow the Second Coming to occur.
It is just the believe that prayer can make things happen. So obeying God's command, and helping the happening of the prerequisite as prophecized in the bible may bring forward the desired outcome of the Second Coming.
The question is: Is this right for a true believer of Bible to do?

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Well, I'd question whether God is guiding anyone to burn the flesh of the bones of women and children using phosphorus bombs.

Is it right for someone to pray? Uh, how can it not be right to pray? ok...maybe if you were praying for us to drop phosphorus on people, that would not be ok, but I don't imagine that's what you're saying. I can't see how praying for the Return could be harmful. In fact, praying to recognize it when it happens could be pretty wise. It's not like it was obviuous to everyone the first time around, was it?