Messiah (pbuh) important to come(come back) to Jews and Chritians ?

Thana · Aug 9, 2014

Saint Frankenstein said:
Christian Zionism is a heresy. Traditional Christians do not believe that the Jews are God's chosen people. We believe that ALL humans are chosen by God and it is up to each of us to accept or reject this calling. They, under the Old Covenant, had a specific purpose for a specific time - to prepare the world for the Messiah. After that, they were to accept the Messiah and follow His commands. Some did and became Christians and the rest didn't. I also do not buy the Vatican's PC nonsense about the Jews being our "elder brothers" since Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity have almost nothing in common and Rabbinic Judaism is not the same as the ancient Israelite religion (I understand why they say those things, it's just that I know too much about the subject to accept it).

So, I don't believe that Jesus is coming back specifically for the Jews. They're not special. No one knows exactly how it is going to happen, anyway. The land of Israel isn't a focus in traditional Christianity. Rather, we are Spiritual Israelites yearning for the New Jerusalem (Heaven).

Obviously, a Christian is not going to believe that Jesus will refute the Trinity. That's just something that Christians and Muslims will have to agree to disagree on.

I never said that Jews are special or better, But that doesn't negate what the bible says. They are God's chosen people, And God is the God of Israel.

I guess I'm just one of those Christians who doesn't believe the NT automatically invalidates the OT.

Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

Thana said:
I never said that Jews are special or better, But that doesn't negate what the bible says. They are God's chosen people, And God is the God of Israel.

I guess I'm just one of those Christians who doesn't believe the NT automatically invalidates the OT.

Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

That verse is talking about the spiritual descendents of Abraham. And who are his spiritual descendents today? Christians. The Church. There is no dual Covenant. There is only one Covenant in effect right now - the Covenant that Jesus Christ established with the entire world. The Jews are not God's chosen people. They have rejected the Messiah. That is a problem. The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was prophesied by Christ. There's a reason why God allowed it to be destroyed.

InChrist · Aug 9, 2014

It's easy to make up personal ideas. follow traditional beliefs of churches or denominations, or buy into doctrines of the many religious groups that spiritualize Israel in order to replace and delegitimize Israel, but I think the only reliable source of Information in reference to Israel and everything else for that matter is God's word in the scriptures themselves, which interpret themselves.

Besides all the references to literal Israel in the Hebrew scriptures and the promises of God made directly to the literal nation of Israel by prophets as Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zachariah, and others Paul's writing in Romans 11 could not be more clear...

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew....

You will say then, Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

People may like to believe that the church has replaced Israel, or church traditions may teach that their church has taken the place of Israel, but I don't believe the Bible teaches any such thing. God is not a liar and when He made numerous promises to Israel concerning the physical land, the literal coming of Messiah, His literal reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem, the preservation and the restoration of the people of Israel, I believe He meant what He said and He is and will continue to literally fulfill His word.

Thana · Aug 9, 2014

Saint Frankenstein said:
That verse is talking about the spiritual descendents of Abraham. And who are his spiritual descendents today? Christians. The Church. There is no dual Covenant. There is only one Covenant in effect right now - the Covenant that Jesus Christ established with the entire world. The Jews are not God's chosen people. They have rejected the Messiah. That is a problem. The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was prophesied by Christ. There's a reason why God allowed it to be destroyed.

Please provide scripture that actually agree's with your claim, Like I have.
Then we can have a debate that doesn't rely on personal sentiment.

Yes, They've rejected Jesus no one is denying that.
But how many times did they reject God/fail God, And that did not change anything. He keeps His promises.

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

InChrist said:
It's easy to make up personal ideas. follow traditional beliefs of churches or denominations, or buy into doctrines of the many religious groups that spiritualize Israel in order to replace and delegitimize Israel, but I think the only reliable source of Information in reference to Israel and everything else for that matter is God's word in the scriptures themselves, which interpret themselves.

Besides all the references to literal Israel in the Hebrew scriptures and the promises of God made directly to the literal nation of Israel by prophets as Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zachariah, and others Paul's writing in Romans 11 could not be more clear...

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew....

You will say then, Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

People may like to believe that the church has replaced Israel, or church traditions may teach that their church has taken the place of Israel, but I don't believe the Bible teaches any such thing. God is not a liar and when He made numerous promises to Israel concerning the physical land, the literal coming of Messiah, His literal reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem, the preservation and the restoration of the people of Israel, I believe He meant what He said and He is and will continue to literally fulfill His word.

You will notice that it says "branches were broken off". The broken off branches are the Jews that deny Christ. Paul is hoping for a time in the future were all the Jews will accept Christ and therefore be grafted back onto the metaphorical olive tree. This hasn't happened yet and it may not happen.

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

Thana said:
Please provide scripture that actually agree's with your claim, Like I have.
Then we can have a debate that doesn't rely on personal sentiment.

Yes, They've rejected Jesus no one is denying that.
But how many times did they reject God/fail God, And that did not change anything. He keeps His promises.

Lots of verses here:
Dispensationalism, Israel, & the Church
The Church is Israel
God's Promises Fulfilled

Thana · Aug 9, 2014

Saint Frankenstein said:
Lots of verses here:
Dispensationalism, Israel, & the Church
The Church is Israel
God's Promises Fulfilled

I asked you to find me some scripture, Not post irrelevant links to Catholic ideology.

I found some more scripture -

Romans 11:11 - "So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous"

Doesn't sound like Israel is the church, Nor does it sound like the Jews are considered irrelevant.

InChrist · Aug 9, 2014

Saint Frankenstein said:
You will notice that it says "branches were broken off". The broken off branches are the Jews that deny Christ. Paul is hoping for a time in the future were all the Jews will accept Christ and therefore be grafted back onto the metaphorical olive tree. This hasn't happened yet and it may not happen.

I'm not saying that Israel isn't a secular nation at this point, the Jews have accepted Christ, that they are saved, or that they are fulfilling the role God is using the church for today. I am saying that they are still God's chosen people, His promises to the nation of Israel are still in effect (Romans 11:29) , and that God has not cast them away (Romans 11:1-2), at a certain time all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) and He still has plans for them laid out in the prophecies/promises He gave to Israel alone. It is clear from Paul's writing that they will acknowledge Christ as Messiah and will be grafted back in (Romans 11:25-27)

I think there is real confusion when one does not distinguish between the church and the nation of Israel as the scriptures do.

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

Thana said:
I asked you to find me some scripture, Not post irrelevant links to Catholic ideology.

I found some more scripture -

Romans 11:11 - "So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous"

Doesn't sound like Israel is the church, Nor does it sound like the Jews are considered irrelevant.

There's scripture in the links, if you would bother to look. Particularly in the last two.

I already addressed that passage of Romans when InChrist posted. Paul was a Jew and he was hoping that eventually all the other Jews will come to accept Christ. He is looking towards this possible future conversion there. Has it happened yet? No.

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

InChrist said:
I'm not saying that Israel isn't a secular nation at this point, the Jews have accepted Christ, that they are saved, or that they are fulfilling the role God is using the church for today. I am saying that they are still God's chosen people, His promises to the nation of Israel are still in effect (Romans 11:29) , and that God has not cast them away (Romans 11:1-2), at a certain time all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) and He still has plans for them laid out in the prophecies/promises He gave to Israel alone. It is clear from Paul's writing that they will acknowledge Christ as Messiah and will be grafted back in (Romans 11:25-27)

I think there is real confusion when one does not distinguish between the church and the nation of Israel as the scriptures do.

Oh, I'm not confused at all. It is when you start saying that God's Covenant still applies to a people who have rejected Him that the confusion sets in. None of Romans 11 says that the Jews who reject Christ are still considered a part of Israel. They were removed from the tree until such time as they come to faith in Christ.

Thana · Aug 9, 2014

Saint Frankenstein said:
There's scripture in the links, if you would bother to look. Particularly in the last two.

I already addressed that passage of Romans when InChrist posted. Paul was a Jew and he was hoping that eventually all the other Jews will come to accept Christ. He is looking towards this possible future conversion there. Has it happened yet? No.

Then specifically quote some scripture so that I may know exactly what you want me to address. Links to numerous passages helps nothing.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say..
Are you saying that God does not agree with Romans, The scripture I quoted?

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

Thana said:
Then specifically quote some scripture so that I may know exactly what you want me to address. Links to numerous passages helps nothing.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say..
Are you saying that God does not agree with Romans, The scripture I quoted?

I'm saying that you are reading into Romans what isn't there. The Jews who reject Christ are not a part of Israel. They can become a part of Israel once again when they come to faith in Christ. Otherwise you're making God out to be a racist Who cares more about your ancestry than your faith, at least when it comes to Jews!

Anyway...

The Church is Israel

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]How much more clear does Paul have to be to show that the Church is Israel, the very seed of Abraham? Galatians 3:7-29: [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif](See more here: The Church is Israel and here: God's Promises Fulfilled)[/FONT]

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Continued:

God's Covenants never were and are not now based on race to the exclusion of those who are not biologically descended from Abraham. From the very first Book of Sacred Scripture, when God made a Covenant with Abraham, there were included people who were not the literal, physical descendants of Abraham. Exodus 12:48 reads:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif] "And when a stranger [ie, a non-Hebrew] shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof." [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Though proselytizing the Nations was not the goal of Old Testament Israel, all were welcome to the Covenant, as all are welcome to Christ today (in fact, at the time of Christ, corrupted Judaism was a proselytizing religion as a matter of historical fact, though not as a part of the intrinsic nature of the Old Covenant 1). The literal bloodline of Abraham was important for the hereditary Aaronic priesthood and for prophetic reasons -- the prophecies of the Messiah (this is why all those boring Old Testament list of "begats" are so important!).

After Christ came, He spoke, over and over, of those who claim to be Jews but are not: [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Revelation 2:9
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Foreshadowing the New Covenant, John the Baptist, too, said that the children of Abraham are not necessarily genetic descendants: [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]What does St. Paul say about the fleshly sons of Abraham versus those sons of the promise of Abraham? [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Those self-proclaimed "sons of Abraham" were the same ones whose Temple was destroyed by His judgement in A.D. 70. (see Apocalypse: The Whore of Babylon, The Beast, & the Rapture).

The Truth then is the same as it is now: Jesus Christ, prefigured in the Old Testament and predicted by the Prophets, is Lord. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Romans 11:16-21
...if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Branches were grafted in, branches were broken off, but the tree remains the same tree, and the "root" is Christ! [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Isaiah 11:1, 10-12
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit... In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]And how do those broken-off branches get grafted on again? [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Romans 11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]The same way as anyone else. Nonetheless, a good number of Protestant groups have come to believe that God has one plan for genetic Jews and another for Christians, thus denying some of the basic tenets of the Christian faith-- the inefficacy of the Old Testament sacrifices (though they point forward to the New Covenant) and the necessity of Christ's sacrifice for salvation!

If Jeremiah 31:31-34 isn't clear enough, I don't know what is: [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]... one more time: who is this New Covenant with? ISRAEL.

"Israel after the flesh" (i.e., modern Jews) may be grafted in again in the same way Gentiles are grafted in to the tree of spiritual Israel: repentance, faith, and baptism.[/FONT]

jewscout · Aug 9, 2014

....anyways, as to the OP,

Godobeyer said:
2) and these question for the jews :

A- what is the important of the coming of the Messaih (pbuh) to the Jews ?

B- If Messaih (pbuh) come with same message of Jesus (pbuh) , "Trinity" , would you accept him ?

I mean if Jesus (pbuh) come back and he told you that he is the Messaih (pbuh), with concept of Trinity , would you believe in him ?

1) the Moshiach, or messiah, will herald the final redemption when the Jews will return to Eretz Yisrael, a Third Temple will be built in Jerusalem, and the world will recognize the One G-d of Israel as Master and Creator of the universe

2) the trinity is not a concept natural to traditional Judaism, so if someone came to declare they were moshiach and endorsed trinity theology, they would NOT be the moshiach

Thana · Aug 9, 2014

Saint Frankenstein said:
I'm saying that you are reading into Romans what isn't there. The Jews who reject Christ are not a part of Israel. They can become a part of Israel once again when they come to faith in Christ. Otherwise you're making God out to be a racist Who cares more about your ancestry than your faith, at least when it comes to Jews!

Anyway...

The Church is Israel

I already read all that, It's why I called it Catholic Ideology. Because that's exactly what it is.

None of that is specific, And none of it is what you've found on your own. You're just repeating Catholic ideology that's been repeated to you.

Have you even gone and looked in your bible for answers?

I think whoever wrote that article is the one reading into things that are not there. The bible specifically, undeniably says, God is the God of Israel. That the Jews are God's chosen people. And no where does it say that Israel is the Church. I'm a Protestant, The Church has about as much relevance and importance to me as a plastic bag.

*sigh* It doesn't matter. Debating doctrine shouldn't be done.

2 Timothy 2:14 "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."

Believe as you like.

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

Thana said:
I already read all that, It's why I called it Catholic Ideology. Because that's exactly what it is.

None of that is specific, And none of it is what you've found on your own. You're just repeating Catholic ideology that's been repeated to you.

Have you even gone and looked in your bible for answers?

I think whoever wrote that article is the one reading into things that are not there. The bible specifically, undeniably says, God is the God of Israel. That the Jews are God's chosen people. And no where does it say that Israel is the Church. I'm a Protestant, The Church has about as much relevance and importance to me as a plastic bag.

*sigh* It doesn't matter. Debating doctrine shouldn't be done.

2 Timothy 2:14 "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."

Believe as you like.

You haven't provided any evidence for your stance. I've provided multiple verses. You've just taken a couple verses out of context and dismiss what I say simply because it is a Catholic stance. If you can't get over your anti-Catholicism long enough to have a discussion, then there's no point in attempting a discourse with you. But if you want, I'll look for Protestant sources that argue the same as me.

Show me where the Bible clearly says that the Jews who reject Christ are still heirs to the Covenant while remaining in their obstinance? Show me where the Bible says that God has a racist double-standard?

Thana · Aug 9, 2014

Saint Frankenstein said:
You haven't provided any evidence for your stance. I've provided multiple verses. You've just taken a couple verses out of context and dismiss what I say simply because it is a Catholic stance. If you can't get over your anti-Catholicism long enough to have a discussion, then there's no point in attempting a discourse with you. But if you want, I'll look for Protestant sources that argue the same as me.

Show me where the Bible clearly says that the Jews who reject Christ are still heirs to the Covenant while remaining in their obstinance? Show me where the Bible says that God has a racist double-standard?

I've already quoted multiple times. You've dismissed the scripture I quoted.
Doing so makes this debate moot.

If you do not believe the Jews are God's Chosen, Like it says in the Bible, Then that's your prerogative.

Pegg · Aug 9, 2014

Thana said:
I never said that Jews are special or better, But that doesn't negate what the bible says. They are God's chosen people, And God is the God of Israel.

I guess I'm just one of those Christians who doesn't believe the NT automatically invalidates the OT.

Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

but they were chosen as a people for the purpose of bringing the Messiah into the world. The Messiah had to be 'born' in the flesh and for that to happen, God had to choose a family group from among all the family groups. The hebrews were chosen purely because they were the descendants of Abraham.

They were'nt chosen because they were better then anyone else. And once the Messiah had come and Gods purpose was fulfilled through the Israelites, there was no need for a special people any more.

From that point on, God was selecting people from all nations to be his special possession. Thats why we have Christianity throughout all the earth...Gods purpose was always to save people from 'all the nations'. So there is no 'chosen' people any more.... that is finished.

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

Thana said:
I've already quoted multiple times. You've dismissed the scripture I quoted.
Doing so makes this debate moot.

No, I told you what the verses meant.

If you do not believe the Jews are God's Chosen, Like it says in the Bible, Then that's your prerogative.

No, it's the prerogative of Christianity, period, for the first 1800 years or so. Christian Zionism and Dispensationalism are modern concepts. Even traditional and mainline Protestants don't believe those things.

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 9, 2014

Pegg said:
but they were chosen as a people for the purpose of bringing the Messiah into the world. The Messiah had to be 'born' in the flesh and for that to happen, God had to choose a family group from among all the family groups. The hebrews were chosen purely because they were the descendants of Abraham.

They were'nt chosen because they were better then anyone else. And once the Messiah had come and Gods purpose was fulfilled through the Israelites, there was no need for a special people any more.

From that point on, God was selecting people from all nations to be his special possession. Thats why we have Christianity throughout all the earth...Gods purpose was always to save people from 'all the nations'. So there is no 'chosen' people any more.... that is finished.

Wow, I actually agree with a JW on something!

Messiah (pbuh) important to come(come back) to Jews and Chritians ?

Lady

Wanderer From Afar

Free4ever

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Free4ever

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Religious Zionist

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Jehovah our God is One

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