The Secret Rapture

angellous_evangellous · Mar 21, 2006

TheTruthWillSetUFree said:
There is a theological question that has disturbed millions of Christians and has lent untold doctrinal confusion to the modern religious world.

That's because some people who should be better spending their time on other things are reading the Bible and quite stupidly not paying attention to other literature of the same time period. There would be no doctrinal confusion whatsoever if folk knew that the rapture is not Christian doctrine but a Protestant fairy tale that has become something of a popular American fundamentalist wet-dream.

angellous_evangellous · Mar 21, 2006

TheTruthWillSetYouFree said:
There is a theological question that has disturbed millions of Christians and has lent untold doctrinal confusion to the modern religious world. That question revolves around the manner of Christ's coming back to this earth at the end of the world. Multitudes have been led to believe that Christ will return secretly. What about the so-called secret rapture? A large number of Christians have been exposed to this "dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretation of prophecy and have been hopelessly confused. According to this view, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate events. First, He will come secretly to take the church to heaven, and then, seven years later, He will come in an open demonstration of power and glory. In between those two events, the Antichrist is supposed to come into power and the great tribulation period take place.

Compare to http://www.present-truth.org/Bible%20Rapture.htm

There is a theological question that has disturbed millions of Christians and has lent untold doctrinal confusion to the modern religious world. That question revolves around the manner of Christ's coming back to this earth at the end of the world. Multitudes have been led to believe that Christ will return secretly. What about the so-called secret rapture? A large number of Christians have been exposed to this "dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretation of prophecy and have been hopelessly confused.

According to this view, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate events. First, He will come secretly to take the church to heaven, and then, seven years later, He will come in an open demonstration of power and glory. In between those two events, the Antichrist is supposed to come into power and the great tribulation period take place.
But the truth is that the Bible nowhere speaks of these two separate comings of Jesus. There is no second stage of His coming that occurs seven years after the so-called "rapture." By the way, that word "rapture" is also an invention of theologians. It can't be found in the Bible in even a single instance. It is a word coined for the second advent of Jesus.

Now here is what we find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.

Plagarism is an ugly thing. It was plagarized from Joe Crews' What the Bible Says About the Secret Rapture.

angellous_evangellous · Mar 21, 2006

TheTruthWillSetUFree said:
Heres some BIBLICAL SUPPORT.
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
Revelation 6:16, 17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him."
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40, 41 out of context. Notice this entire passage: "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Matthew 24: 37-41. But as you can see,this is not what most the world believes.

Plagarized from the same source. http://www.present-truth.org/Bible%20Rapture.htm

Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
Revelation 6:16, 17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

angellous_evangellous · Mar 21, 2006

TheTruthWillSetUFree said:
Please Read This.It is very important that you understand what the BIBLE say's.

The Second Chance
Finally, the secret rapturists claim that during the tribulation those not raptured will be given another chance to be saved.
Let it be categorically stated that nowhere does Scripture speak of a second chance, nor does the Bible anywhere speak of people being saved after Jesus comes. This is just another manmade doctrine that is indeed pleasing to the carnal heart of man. Actually, the Bible teaches the opposite. Notice these clear texts of Scripture:
2 Corinthians 6:2 "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
Revelation 22:11, 12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." (Evidently probation closes just prior to the second advent.)
Jeremiah 8:20 "The harvest (day of second coming) is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."
When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle." Revelation 14:14. This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world." Matthew 13:39. "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." Revelation 14:16. Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved." Jeremiah 8:20. There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.
When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations." Matthew 25:32. There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what he did before the coming of Christ. Let us stand firm on the Word of God alone and reject these manmade, man-pleasing ideas that form the bulk of the whole secret rapture theory. As we have noticed, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will come the second time in glorious majesty to take His redeemed home with Him. It will be a personal, visible, and earth-shaking event that everyone alive will know about. The righteous will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17), whereas the wicked will be slain by the brightness of that coming (2 Thessa-lonians 2:8). Let us carefully study our Bibles that we will not be deceived concerning this most important and wonderful hope, the second coming of Jesus

More plagarism from http://www.present-truth.org/Bible%20Rapture.htm. One wonders if TheTruthWillSetYouFree will actually post something that they have written?

The Second Chance
Finally, the secret rapturists claim that during the tribulation those not raptured will be given another chance to be saved.
Let it be categorically stated that nowhere does Scripture speak of a second chance, nor does the Bible anywhere speak of people being saved after Jesus comes. This is just another manmade doctrine that is indeed pleasing to the carnal heart of man. Actually, the Bible teaches the opposite. Notice these clear texts of Scripture:
2 Corinthians 6:2 "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
Revelation 22:11, 12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." (Evidently probation closes just prior to the second advent.)
Jeremiah 8:20 "The harvest (day of second coming) is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."
When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle." Revelation 14:14. This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world." Matthew 13:39. "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." Revelation 14:16. Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved." Jeremiah 8:20. There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.
When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations." Matthew 25:32. There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what he did before the coming of Christ.
Let us stand firm on the Word of God alone and reject these manmade, man-pleasing ideas that form the bulk of the whole secret rapture theory. As we have noticed, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will come the second time in glorious majesty to take His redeemed home with Him. It will be a personal, visible, and earth-shaking event that everyone alive will know about. The righteous will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17), whereas the wicked will be slain by the brightness of that coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Let us carefully study our Bibles that we will not be deceived concerning this most important and wonderful hope, the second coming of Jesus.

angellous_evangellous · Mar 21, 2006

TheTruthWillSetUFree said:
I should mention that when I explore these things, I venture on holy ground. I share the following study with confidence, but I also realize and respect that others may have a different interpretation.
The Twelve Tribes
Perhaps one of the first things we should ask is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes. I don't want to be tedious, but to really understand this subject we should briefly review what the Bible says about the Old Testament tribes. First, there were actually 13 tribes. Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, who the Lord renamed Israel. But because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph. "Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons.
One reason you still find only 12 tribes mentioned throughout the Bible is that after the Levites were chosen to be the priests for Israel, they were excluded from receiving a specific territory inheritance (Deuteronomy 10:8, 9; 18:1) and from census figures (Numbers 1:49). Instead, they were to spread out among all the tribes as teachers and priests.
There are several reasons why the tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 can't possibly be literal Israelite tribes. The Old Testament reveals that 10 of the 12 tribes were carried away by the Assyrians in 722 B.C. "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes." 2 Kings 17:6.
History records that long before the time of Jesus, some of the 10 tribes returned to Samaria after intermarrying with the Assyrians. Their descendants, known as Samaritans, were hated by the Jews because they were no longer "pure" Israelites in blood or religion. In fact, because the 10 tribes have been so thoroughly scattered around the world and absorbed by their host nations, today a person would be hard pressed to find even one pure descendant from the tribe of Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, or Simeon-much less 12,000 of them!
Another strong clue that Revelation is not speaking of the literal Israelite tribes is that in the Old Testament, the 12 tribes were very unequal in population numbers. Judah was very large, while Benjamin was very small. God divided the promised land in proportion to each tribe's needs. But the 144,000 is composed of 12,000 per tribe, right across the board. So who does make up this group? I believe the answer to this question lies in the fact that God's promises to literal Israel now apply to spiritual Israel. Since the year A.D. 34, the prophecies and attention of Scripture have focused on the children of faith-either Jew or Gentile. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit." Romans 2:28, 29. "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

All that you've shown us is that you can copy and paste from more than one website.

This one is taken from http://www.nisbett.com/library/ir-who_are_the_144000.html. It is "Who are the 144,000" by Doug Batchelor.

The Twelve Tribes
Perhaps one of the first things we should ask is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes. I don't want to be tedious, but to really understand this subject we should briefly review what the Bible says about the Old Testament tribes. First, there were actually 13 tribes. Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, who the Lord renamed Israel. But because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph. "Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons.
One reason you still find only 12 tribes mentioned throughout the Bible is that after the Levites were chosen to be the priests for Israel, they were excluded from receiving a specific territory inheritance (Deuteronomy 10:8, 9; 18:1) and from census figures (Numbers 1:49). Instead, they were to spread out among all the tribes as teachers and priests.
There are several reasons why the tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 can't possibly be literal Israelite tribes. The Old Testament reveals that 10 of the 12 tribes were carried away by the Assyrians in 722 B.C. "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes." 2 Kings 17:6.
History records that long before the time of Jesus, some of the 10 tribes returned to Samaria after intermarrying with the Assyrians. Their descendants, known as Samaritans, were hated by the Jews because they were no longer "pure" Israelites in blood or religion. In fact, because the 10 tribes have been so thoroughly scattered around the world and absorbed by their host nations, today a person would be hard pressed to find even one pure descendant from the tribe of Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, or Simeon-much less 12,000 of them!
Another strong clue that Revelation is not speaking of the literal Israelite tribes is that in the Old Testament, the 12 tribes were very unequal in population numbers. Judah was very large, while Benjamin was very small. God divided the promised land in proportion to each tribe's needs. But the 144,000 is composed of 12,000 per tribe, right across the board. So who does make up this group? I believe the answer to this question lies in the fact that God's promises to literal Israel now apply to spiritual Israel. Since the year A.D. 34, the prophecies and attention of Scripture have focused on the children of faith-either Jew or Gentile. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit." Romans 2:28, 29. "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29.

may · Mar 22, 2006

blueman said:
What's your basis for this information. It certainly is not the Holy Bible, but more than likely the JW book that was written sometime in the 18th or 19th century, correct?

lol all of JW beliefs are based on the bible , and those who remain faithful to Gods word are blessed with insight and understanding .it is all happening in these last days
And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."
(Matthew 13:11) In reply he said: "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.......yes we are in the time of the end and its all happening , and has been since Jesus kingship in the heavens in 1914............. its surprising how people are not happy about all the things that are happening in these last days ,yet all the things happening are for the benefit of all mankind.yes faithfulness to Gods word leads to many blessings but unfaithfulness leads to cutting-off.

may · Mar 22, 2006

FFH said:
There will be a second resurrection, or rapture. Christ will save as many as want to be saved during the final tribulation.

Christ came not into the world to condemn it, but to save it.

they are being gathered right now and waving their palm branches in their hands to welcome Jesus as the king of Gods heavenly kingdom and they are a GREAT CROWD
After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. revelation 7;9-10 ...yes its all happening right now ................................. but the ones of the LITTLE FLOCK are already in the kingdom with Jesus ,they are the spiritual Jews, but the gathering of the great crowd is getting larger and larger , there is no number for the great crowd time will tell who get through the tribulation ,but those who are going to heaven Jehovah has revealed that there are 144,000 .he knows how many he wants to rule as kings and priests in the heavenly kingdom, its all happening and i am waving my palm branch to welcome Jesus as the king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment

Adstar · Mar 22, 2006

TheTruthWillSetUFree said:
There is a theological question that has disturbed millions of Christians and has lent untold doctrinal confusion to the modern religious world. That question revolves around the manner of Christ's coming back to this earth at the end of the world. Multitudes have been led to believe that Christ will return secretly. What about the so-called secret rapture? A large number of Christians have been exposed to this "dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretation of prophecy and have been hopelessly confused. According to this view, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate events. First, He will come secretly to take the church to heaven, and then, seven years later, He will come in an open demonstration of power and glory. In between those two events, the Antichrist is supposed to come into power and the great tribulation period take place.
Where do you stand on this matter++++++++++++++++++++++++??Let me hear your thoughts on the matter.I'll will let you know my thoughts after a short discussion.

Thank you,

I think you are describing the Pre-Trib rapture position. I believe in post tribulation or more descriptively Pre-Wrath. Tribulation is what the worldly give to us. Wrath is what God gives to the worldly in response.

The rapture that is called "caught up" in the bible will happen upon the return of the Messiah Jesus. This will happen in conjunction with the first resurrection of the saints. Jesus will return to earth in a similar way to His leaving earth. But of course it will be far more dramatic and many more people will observe it.

The rapture will happen at the Last Trumpet, This trumpet is talked about in the book of Revelations. It is the last in a series of 7 trumpet sounding. This trumpet blast is also referred to in Matthew chapter 24 where Jesus describes His return to earth.

The Best rapture scripture is in the Book of 1 Corinthians:

1 Corrinthians15: 49,54

49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:

51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.

So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

So now we go on to the next scripture:

Revelation10: 7

7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:

Revelation8: 12

12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

i hope this is what you where looking for?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar · Mar 22, 2006

After reading through the many replies to the original observation and request. It seem to me that people are under the impression that Pre-Tribulation rapture is the Only rapture doctrine that exists. But that is not the case. Just because it is the most popular and has the best media coverage does not make it the only doctrine in town. :biglaugh:

Jesus also talked about the rapture.

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lots wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

It is also good to Note that Jesus knew that this event would be a world wide happening see how he said "in that day" and also "in that night".

Those that will be taken will be caught up to meet Jesus upon His Return to earth.

Also i do not believe the 144,000 have anything to do with the rapture. They will not be raptured at all. The reason why they are sealed is to protect them from the wrath that is being poured out on earth at the time of the Messiah's Return. i believe the 144,000 are as stated in the bible Jewish innocents 12,000 from every tribe of Israel. They are the remnant talked about in the OT prophesies of the Day of The Lord.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

FFH · Mar 22, 2006

It's not that complicated. We make it too complicated.

Daniel speaks of a resurrection of those living just prior to, or around, the time that the "Abomination of Desolation", is set up in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple.

There is a second resurrection for those that will have not been worthy to partake of the first resurrection. They are they who have come through "great tribulation" and "have been made white through the blood of the lamb". They will have missed the first resurrection and will have to face the evilness of men on earth for the second half, or the final 3 1/2 years, of the great 7 year tribulation.

We will all be going through the first half, or the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation, which will be glorious, for those that follow Christ, and will be a time of great prosperity, for those that follow Christ, and at the same time it will be a time of desolation for those that choose to reject Christ and his teachings of love, towards our fellow man.

A man by the name of Kim Clement paints a good picture of the first half of the tribulation, for those that follow Christ. www.KimClement.com , click on prophecies.

I strongly believe that the 7 year tribulation, spoken of by Daniel, will begin this year, 2006, beginning with some very distinct events, which will mark the beginning of the tribulation, for those that are watching for it.

We will know when the beginning of the 7 year tribulation has started, because of the wrath that will be poured out on all those that fight against the lamb of God.

blueman · Mar 22, 2006

may said:
lol all of JW beliefs are based on the bible , and those who remain faithful to Gods word are blessed with insight and understanding .it is all happening in these last days
And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."
(Matthew 13:11) In reply he said: "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.......yes we are in the time of the end and its all happening , and has been since Jesus kingship in the heavens in 1914............. its surprising how people are not happy about all the things that are happening in these last days ,yet all the things happening are for the benefit of all mankind.yes faithfulness to Gods word leads to many blessings but unfaithfulness leads to cutting-off.

May, with all due respect, you guys distort the Word of God and the reference to the year 1914 is nowhere in the original text or any the early century transcripts, in addition to other distorted passages of scripture that the JW book makes reference to. :jiggy:

dawny0826 · Mar 22, 2006

TheTruthWillSetUFree said:
There is a theological question that has disturbed millions of Christians and has lent untold doctrinal confusion to the modern religious world. That question revolves around the manner of Christ's coming back to this earth at the end of the world. Multitudes have been led to believe that Christ will return secretly. What about the so-called secret rapture? A large number of Christians have been exposed to this "dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretation of prophecy and have been hopelessly confused. According to this view, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate events. First, He will come secretly to take the church to heaven, and then, seven years later, He will come in an open demonstration of power and glory. In between those two events, the Antichrist is supposed to come into power and the great tribulation period take place.
Where do you stand on this matter++++++++++++++++++++++++??Let me hear your thoughts on the matter.I'll will let you know my thoughts after a short discussion.

Thank you,

I can't claim to be correct here...because I don't think that anyone can truly know what will take place...but this is my opinion on what I've read in the bible...

I think that there will be two raptures if you will and if you don't like the word rapture...you can use "coming".

I don't think that either will be secret, because when Jesus comes, the sky will open. I'm not sure how anyone will miss that. I believe when Christ comes the first go around...the dead in Christ will first rise and then the living in Christ.

I believe that those who have accepted Christ now will be taken up with him and will NOT be here for the tribulation. I believe that there will be people who will come to Christ AFTER the first rapture and it is those believers who will ultimately face the most persecution and turmoil and will fight the final battle in armageddon. I believe that the 144,000 mentioned in the bible is composed of these individuals.

And then...Christ will come again.

Who knows if this is anywhere near the truth or not...it's just my sketchy take on what I've read. I simply take comfort in the fact that Jesus IS coming and as his sheep...I have no worries...any way it happens to occur.

Mister_T · Mar 22, 2006

31 In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lots wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

That's a pretty good passage that supports the argument for the Rapture.

angellous_evangellous · Mar 22, 2006

Mister_T said:
That's a pretty good passage that supports the argument for the Rapture.

In order to see the rapture in that text, the rapture must be assumed from other sources outside of Scripture.

may · Mar 22, 2006

blueman said:
May, with all due respect, you guys distort the Word of God and the reference to the year 1914 is nowhere in the original text or any the early century transcripts, in addition to other distorted passages of scripture that the JW book makes reference to. :jiggy:

for those who kept awake to bible prophecy and bible chronology it is as clear as a bell ,Jesus was made king right on time in 1914 , many are in the dark in a spiritual way because of so called religious leaders down through the centuries falling asleep and missing the signs, and because of this their flocks are also in the dark , its all happening in these last days
1914A Year Marked by Bible Chronology and World Events

Chronology

→ Bible foretold period of "seven times,"
after which God would give world
rulership to the one he chose
(Daniel 4:3-17)
→ "Seven times" = 2,520 years
(Compare Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14;
Ezekiel 4:6.)
→ Beginning of "seven times": 607 B.C.E.
(Ezekiel 21:25-27; Luke 21:24)
→ End of "seven times": 1914 C.E.
Jesus Christ was then enthroned
in heaven, began to rule amid
his enemies (Psalm 110:1, 2)
Satan was ousted from heaven;
woe to mankind (Revelation 12:7-12)
Last days began (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
Events Foretold to Mark Last Days

→ War (First world war began in 1914;

peace has never really returned)
→ Famine (Now claims some millions
lives per year)
→ Disease epidemics (Despite
advanced scientific research)
→ Earthquakes (On an average,
about 20 times as many major
ones since 1914)
→ Fear (Of crime, economic collapse,
nuclear annihilation)ruining of the earth

blueman · Mar 22, 2006

may said:
for those who kept awake to bible prophecy and bible chronology it is as clear as a bell ,Jesus was made king right on time in 1914 , many are in the dark in a spiritual way because of so called religious leaders down through the centuries falling asleep and missing the signs, and because of this their flocks are also in the dark , its all happening in these last days
1914A Year Marked by Bible Chronology and World Events

Chronology

→ Bible foretold period of "seven times,"
after which God would give world
rulership to the one he chose
(Daniel 4:3-17)
→ "Seven times" = 2,520 years
(Compare Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14;
Ezekiel 4:6.)
→ Beginning of "seven times": 607 B.C.E.
(Ezekiel 21:25-27; Luke 21:24)
→ End of "seven times": 1914 C.E.
Jesus Christ was then enthroned
in heaven, began to rule amid
his enemies (Psalm 110:1, 2)
Satan was ousted from heaven;
woe to mankind (Revelation 12:7-12)
Last days began (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
Events Foretold to Mark Last Days

→ War (First world war began in 1914;

peace has never really returned)
→ Famine (Now claims some millions
lives per year)
→ Disease epidemics (Despite
advanced scientific research)
→ Earthquakes (On an average,
about 20 times as many major
ones since 1914)
→ Fear (Of crime, economic collapse,
nuclear annihilation)ruining of the earth

Yeah and just like the founder of the Jehovah Witness movement predicted the end of the world and Jesus's return on multiple occassions only to be wrong time and time again. Jesus was King of kings and Lord of lords long before the 20th century since He has stood at the right hand of the Father since the beginning of time. You're way off in your estimates to say the least as validated in John 1:1-3 and please do not provide reference to the JW version since it is well documented that it is distorted. :bounce

may · Mar 22, 2006

blueman said:
Yeah and just like the founder of the Jehovah Witness movement predicted the end of the world and Jesus's return on multiple occassions only to be wrong time and time again. Jesus was King of kings and Lord of lords long before the 20th century since He has stood at the right hand of the Father since the beginning of time. You're way off in your estimates to say the least as validated in John 1:1-3 and please do not provide reference to the JW version since it is well documented that it is distorted. :bounce

just think if the early bible students had fallen asleep like christendom have ,they would be in the dark just the same as christendom are ,it is so good to see the light getting lighter and lighter in these last days, keeping awake is what jesus told his followers to do and some have done just that and Jesus has given them even more responsibily .
Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings matthew 24;45-47

No*s · Mar 22, 2006

Adstar said:
After reading through the many replies to the original observation and request. It seem to me that people are under the impression that Pre-Tribulation rapture is the Only rapture doctrine that exists. But that is not the case. Just because it is the most popular and has the best media coverage does not make it the only doctrine in town. :biglaugh:

The most popular view is a complete rejection of Darbyism. Virtually all of the rebuttals to a pre-tribulation rapture version of Darbyism also apply to post-trib and mid-trib versions. It uses the same basic isogesis of Scripture, has a similar history (shorter, actually), and so on.

Adstar said:
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lots wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

It is also good to Note that Jesus knew that this event would be a world wide happening see how he said "in that day" and also "in that night". Those that will be taken will be caught up to meet Jesus upon His Return to earth.

Read the passage more carefully. It is as "in the days of Noah." Those taken in Noah's day were taken into judgement, not delivered. Compare this with the parallell passage in Mt. 24.39: "taken" refers to judgement. Those who live, who are not destroyed, are the ones God delivers, not the ones He "takes" into judgement. Even in the passage you quoted, Christ is giving warnings on what to actually do when the day arrives: flee the field without looking back, abandon one's house, and so on. This makes absolutely no sense if they are to be taken out and not experience judgement.

The only way to read this passage in support of the rapture is to actually assume it when you read it. If read without the assumption, with those of historical Christianity, it reads smoothly without a bump.

No*s · Mar 22, 2006

Mister_T said:
That's a pretty good passage that supports the argument for the Rapture.

Not if you don't look for it when you read it. The passage reads smoothly and without incident if one reads it with historical Christian doctrine.

angellous_evangellous · Mar 22, 2006

Mister_T said:
That's a pretty good passage that supports the argument for the Rapture.

Angellous said:
In order to see the rapture in that text, the rapture must be assumed from other sources outside of Scripture.

Adstar said:
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lots wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

It is also good to Note that Jesus knew that this event would be a world wide happening see how he said "in that day" and also "in that night". Those that will be taken will be caught up to meet Jesus upon His Return to earth.

No*s said:
The only way to read this passage in support of the rapture is to actually assume it when you read it. If read without the assumption, with those of historical Christianity, it reads smoothly without a bump.

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