Why do you want to believe there is nothing wrong with Christian scripture?

savagewind · Aug 7, 2014

AK4 said:
Think about it, only His disciples can make disciples right? So there is the answer to your first question.

How do you know only his disciples can make a disciple? A disciple is someone who follows behind a leader to be taught by him. Is this wrong?

Jesus promises freedom. So knowing what being held as a slave feels like causes many people to seek the deliverer who is Jesus Christ. So slave owners make disciples for Jesus. How is this not true?

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit AND IN TRUTH...

True worshippers worship not only in spirit but TRUTH. Worshipping in spirit isnt apparently enough, one has to know the truth to be a TRUE worshipper.

One has to know what truth to be a true worshipper? I think it means refusing to believe a lie.

I believe Jesus said "I am going, therefore disciple the nations". Jesus never said make disciples. God makes disciples. I am not god. I am not able to make a disciple. I can help Jesus' disicples but only if I am a disciple (so I agree with you there) which I am not, according to you, because Jesus said (according to you) make disicples, and I don't believe it. Is his saying go make disciples a truth I must believe to be true? I'm not ever going to believe it.

So to answer your question directly, only the disciples. The disciples make disciples and those new disciples make new ones and so on and so on. Its like the parable of the of the mustard seed and this:

So the kingdom keeps going and growing and going and growing.

Going is not a true word to describe the Kingdom. "Coming" is the true Kingdom word. "Let your kingdom come" says Jesus.

Also if Jesus IS The Kingdom, then the kingdom does not grow as Jesus is not growing.

savagewind · Aug 7, 2014

Anyway, the thread is not about what the sciptures mean. It is about believing in what they don't mean.

AK4 · Aug 7, 2014

I believe Jesus said "I am going, therefore disciple the nations". Jesus never said make disciples. God makes disciples. I am not god. I am not able to make a disciple. I can help Jesus' disicples but only if I am a disciple (so I agree with you there) which I am not, according to you, because Jesus said (according to you) make disicples, and I don't believe it. Is his saying go make disciples a truth I must believe to be true? I'm not ever going to believe it.

I will address this real quick because I have to go but I am glad you caught that. BUT Jesus did say

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations [Matt 28:19].

You are totally correct, only God makes people believe but as Paul even said "by the FOOLISHNESS of preaching God saves". Another way of saying it is by the foolishness of what I am saying here [not by anything clever or wise but the foolishness] God will save you.

I know that God can save you like He did Paul for example [in a flash of light]. I foolishly talk to you about God as if something I say will save you. But at the same time people have to be TOLD about God by someone right? So both are true. Paul and all the apostles recognized this.

Is his saying go make disciples a truth I must believe to be true? I'm not ever going to believe it

In short yes, you just read it. But maybe its not your calling to disciple [if you were a believer]. Here are two verses they don't teach in these churches out here that should help you understand that you don't have to be like JWs in trying to disciple someone

1 Peter 3:15 - Bible Gateway

Whenever anyone asks you to speak of your hope, be ready to defend it.

and

"[1] preach with sound doctrine and [2] refute [expose] those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version]

Just doing those two, God can use you to help bring someone to the knowledge of the truth [1 Tim 2:4].

I believe even an atheist who exposes the lies of orthodox Christianity helps God achieve in someone else what He wants in that person.

savagewind · Aug 7, 2014

Some people believe and teach God will not allow a person who believes in Jehovah to be misled by faulty scripture. So there is nothing in the many versions of "all scripture inspired" that is wrong enough to cause a person to stray from the truth that is in Jesus Christ. Jehovah allowed all the bad things that happened to the world, the prophets and The Son but would never ever allow anything bad to happen to The Bible.

And I'm suppose to believe that. SIGH

AK4 · Aug 7, 2014

quote AK4

So a non-disciple makes someone a disciple? Like an atheist causing people to become true disciples....Don't know if that's possible but lets go with it...He /she will die in their sins and be resurrected in the resurrection of the unjust and then be judged and be taught righteousness [part of righteousness is belief in God] and then be in the Kingdom.

So when I said this I was "loading" lol. There have been plenty of stuff I have read from some who may or may not have been disciples or may have been atheist or such and helped me understand the truths of God.

And I thank God for them.

AK4 · Aug 7, 2014

savagewind said:
Some people believe and teach God will not allow a person who believes in Jehovah to be misled by faulty scripture. So there is nothing in the many versions of "all scripture inspired" that is wrong enough to cause a person to stray from the truth that is in Jesus Christ. Jehovah allowed all the bad things that happened to the world, the prophets and The Son but would never ever allow anything bad to happen to The Bible.

And I'm suppose to believe that. SIGH

No and let me add to that, why would He say if anyone changes, adds or subtracts from His words such and such will happen if it wasn't possible for His words to be misconstrued and changed and added to and subtracted from?

Those who argue opposite hears a verse for em to swallow

Jeremiah 8:8 "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law ...

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually
the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? ...

savagewind · Aug 7, 2014

AK4 said:
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations [Matt 28:19].

In short yes, you just read it. But maybe its not your calling to disciple [if you were a believer]. Here are two verses they don't teach in these churches out here that should help you understand that you don't have to be like JWs in trying to disciple someone

That is your version. My version says "going, therefore, disciple the nations". The word "make" is added in your version.

You are totally correct, only God makes people believe but as Paul even said "by the FOOLISHNESS of preaching God saves". Another way of saying it is by the foolishness of what I am saying here [not by anything clever or wise but the foolishness] God will save you.

Here is where we differ. I do not believe Jesus is for saving me. He came to save the world of which I am not.

I know that God can save you like He did Paul for example [in a flash of light]. I foolishly talk to you about God as if something I say will save you. But at the same time people have to be TOLD about God by someone right? So both are true. Paul and all the apostles recognized this.

Yes, by your word you will be saved (into the body of Christ) and by your words you will be condemned (by the body of Christ). Telling about Jesus The Kingdom is not making disciples.

Telling about Jesus is balm for weary souls.

savagewind · Aug 7, 2014

AK4 said:
No and let me add to that, why would He say if anyone changes, adds or subtracts from His words such and such will happen if it wasn't possible for His words to be misconstrued and changed and added to and subtracted from?

Those who argue opposite hears a verse for em to swallow

Jeremiah 8:8 "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law ...

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually
the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? ...

I shall quote my husband here. Don't take this wrong, but I luuuuv you! That's for people who make his life easier. Haha I like this post! Oh. Welcome back to forum! Usually before I frubal I check the status quo first. You have been here a while. Where did you go? You don't have to answer that. Sometimes I just talk what's in my head. Someone once gave it a name, but he seems to have fallen off flat Earth.

AK4 · Aug 7, 2014

savagewind said:
I shall quote my husband here. Don't take this wrong, but I luuuuv you! That's for people who make his life easier. Haha I like this post! Oh. Welcome back to forum! Usually before I frubal I check the status quo first. You have been here a while. Where did you go? You don't have to answer that. Sometimes I just talk what's in my head. Someone once gave it a name, but he seems to have fallen off flat Earth.

I am honored-- that has made my day!

About Id say 4 maybe 5 years ago I stopped posting. It was kinda surreal because it was like I had become a religious hobbyist [someone who just like to argue the scriptures]. I was debating Ben Masada among others on here and after one post I had the thought "Its fun making him look like a fool/idiot", and that's when I knew that something was wrong, so I stopped posting.

I didn't get many frugals then because I expose the lies and doublespeak of people, especially Christianity and Christians do not like to be shown their hypocrisy. Change that---they HATE being shown their hypocrisy and they don't even know why they believe what they believe. Don't get me wrong I am a Christian but I don't believe their nonscriptural doctrines. The closest I have in common with them is that He died for our sins---yet if you ask them about that, they don't believe that Christ really died.

So I don't look for frubals, its actually a sign to me of approval from God that "I" am doing something right ["I" is in quotes because I believe vehemently scriptures like Phil 2:13 ie we have no freewill].

lol nah I don't think Hes off the earth per se, because Hes gathering Himself His Kingdom.

AK4 · Aug 7, 2014

Ok this may be a long post sorry.

Let me start with this

That is your version. My version says "going, therefore, disciple the nations". The word "make" is added in your version.

True different versions may say something different and on some occasions there may be just one version that gets it right [example John 3:16, only the Concordant version really nails it], but since that is the case then lets just do what the scriptures say to do, we need two or three witnesses to prove a scriptural truth.

Ok so lets look at the parable of the talents. One took his talent and increased them, the other took his talent and hid it. Jesus was mad at the one who hid his talent and praised the other. Now Im pretty sure we agree that disciples of Jesus are to do good works. So when Jesus said "therefore , disciple the nations", just as some versions have it as teach instead of disciple, it does NOT mean stay and keep trying to convert/disciple someone who doesn't want to be discipled. It does NOT mean force what you believe on someone either. It also does NOT mean hide your talent and wait for your Master to return---you can back that up with what Jesus said about the church of Laodicea "I will vomit you out my mouth" for being lukewarm.

Second witness:

Paul, as his custom was, went to the synagogues trying to teach/disciple right? But when those people didn't want anything to do with it, what did he do? Knocked the dust off his feet and went about his way.

Now It DOES mean as Strongs defines it;

Cognate: 3100 mathēteúō (from 3101 /mathētḗs, "disciple") – to disciple, i.e. helping someone to progressively learn the Word of God to become a matured, growing disciple (literally, "a learner," a true Christ-follower); to train (develop) in the truths of Scripture and the lifestyle required, i.e. helping a believer learn to be a disciple of Christ in belief and practice. See 3101 (mathētēs).

Here is where we differ. I do not believe Jesus is for saving me. He came to save the world of which I am not.

Well theres two problems here, in the scriptures it does say we are not to be part of the world but it also says that by no other name can one be saved, in other words be not part of this world. So if you achieved this without Jesus and never ever being part of the world then...

BTW Jesus is Jehovah or as you have Yehoshua.

Yes, by your word you will be saved (into the body of Christ) and by your words you will be condemned (by the body of Christ). Telling about Jesus The Kingdom is not making disciples.

Telling about Jesus is balm for weary souls.

I can agree with this although telling about Jesus and the Kingdom should make disciples, after all its the Gospel/Good News by which you are being saved right? Sad thing the truths of God and the Kingdom are NOT taught so most don't even have any idea what the purpose of the Kingdom of God is for.

Most know and believe that you try to get yourself saved in this life so when you die you go to heaven instead of hell or purgatory---sadly that's it. Even though the scriptures don't teach any of that, but that's all that's being taught.

If they knew that the Kingdom has a very important job to do, and what it is, and why they are in the Kingdom and others aren't and BELIEVED IT, then it would make disciples out of em. But as it stands you are pretty much right "Telling about Jesus is balm for weary souls."

[

QUOTE]How do you know only his disciples can make a disciple? A disciple is someone who follows behind a leader to be taught by him. Is this wrong?

Well one way is by what Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits". A jew who tries to teach/disciple someone about/to follow Jesus...doesn't quite work [assuming that he doesn't really believe Jesus is the Son of God].

Jesus promises freedom. So knowing what being held as a slave feels like causes many people to seek the deliverer who is Jesus Christ. So slave owners make disciples for Jesus. How is this not true?

Heres the difference for true disciples making disciples---they should not be lording it over another like they was a slave owner. If anything they should be acting as servant also just like their Master said He was acting.

One has to know what truth to be a true worshipper? I think it means refusing to believe a lie.

Same difference. In order to truly refuse to believe a lie one has to know the real truth. Better way to state it, can the deceived know they are deceived? Until the deceived know that they been deceived, they wont refuse believing a lie.

Going is not a true word to describe the Kingdom. "Coming" is the true Kingdom word. "Let your kingdom come" says Jesus.

I was addressing it as the Kingdom is already established. As the scripture said it, the Kingdom, will have no end, thus it keeps going and going.

Also if Jesus IS The Kingdom, then the kingdom does not grow as Jesus is not growing.

Jesus is not growing. That is correct. How do you improve on perfection? Jesus is not solely the Kingdom either

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever [eonian]; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

This is a huge subject though so I will just leave it there.

savagewind · Aug 7, 2014

AK4 said:
we need two or three witnesses to prove a scriptural truth.
One took his talent and increased them, the other took his talent and hid it. Jesus was mad at the one who hid his talent and praised the other. Now Im pretty sure we agree that disciples of Jesus are to do good works. So when Jesus said "therefore , disciple the nations", just as some versions have it as teach instead of disciple, it does NOT mean stay and keep trying to convert/disciple someone who doesn't want to be discipled. It does NOT mean force what you believe on someone either. It also does NOT mean hide your talent and wait for your Master to return---you can back that up with what Jesus said about the church of Laodicea "I will vomit you out my mouth" for being lukewarm.

I do not believe multiplying the talent means making disciples. I believe it means strenghtening truth that is in you.

Second witness:

Paul, as his custom was, went to the synagogues trying to teach/disciple right? But when those people didn't want anything to do with it, what did he do? Knocked the dust off his feet and went about his way.

Now It DOES mean as Strongs defines it;

Cognate: 3100 mathēteúō (from 3101 /mathētḗs, "disciple") – to disciple, i.e. helping someone to progressively learn the Word of God to become a matured, growing disciple (literally, "a learner," a true Christ-follower); to train (develop) in the truths of Scripture and the lifestyle required, i.e. helping a believer learn to be a disciple of Christ in belief and practice. See 3101 (mathētēs).

To teach is to disciple. Yes. A disciple is not made though. The faith of a disciple is strenghthened by other disciples.

Well there's two problems here, in the scriptures it does say we are not to be part of the world but it also says that by no other name can one be saved, in other words be not part of this world. So if you achieved this without Jesus and never ever being part of the world then...
BTW Jesus is Jehovah or as you have Yehoshua.

Then let's agree to disagree.

I can agree with this although telling about Jesus and the Kingdom should make disciples, after all its the Gospel/Good News by which you are being saved right?

It is by the good news of Jesus Christ that I am who I am. If that means saved then....OK. I do not know about "saved".

In order to truly refuse to believe a lie one has to know the real truth. Better way to state it, can the deceived know they are deceived? Until the deceived know that they been deceived, they won't refuse believing a lie.

I don't agree. If something does not make sense, even if I do not know the true alternative, I don't believe what makes no sense.

I was addressing it as the Kingdom is already established. As the scripture said it, the Kingdom, will have no end, thus it keeps going and going.

I don't think so.

AK4 · Aug 7, 2014

I do not believe multiplying the talent means making disciples. I believe it means strenghtening truth that is in you.

Yes what you say here also applies, but the focus wasn't on the talent in our discussion, it was on the disciple right? The disciple is not to sit on his talent/skill or lets say gift from God and do nothing with it. If one is given the gift to teach/disciple or lets put it in plain speech, if one has the ability to be able to show and convince others of the what His Master teaches [I want the emphasis on show because I believe people would rather SEE a sermon than hear a sermon] then that person should be out there doing something about it. Granted this is NOT an easy task at all because as we agreed it is God who converts/makes one a disciple.

To teach is to disciple. Yes. A disciple is not made though. The faith of a disciple is strenghthened by other disciples.

So if the one who is teaching has strong faith and does what a disciple supposed to do [show] then by this it strengthens the other and that person may be able to "rinse and repeat" right?

Then let's agree to disagree.

Cool. What if I could show you how Jesus is transliterated from YHWH?

It is by the good news of Jesus Christ that I am who I am. If that means saved then....OK. I do not know about "saved".

I know this belief system but having trouble recalling everything about it. You believe everything about Jesus but Hes not God or something like that? Am I close?

God created Jesus so therefore Jesus is not God right? Hes a great man, prophet, teacher etc etc and Hes even the Saviour of the world but Hes not God right?

Just trying to understand

I don't agree. If something does not make sense, even if I do not know the true alternative, I don't believe what makes no sense.

That's called a suspicion. Knowing the real truth vs having a suspicion that something isnt right is not the same thing. I do get what you are saying though. There is probably [not saying it is, and maybe this applies to me too] still something you believe that don't make sense or may still be nonsensical---whether true or not. I could bet on one subject that you do believe something that makes absolutely no sense at all, if you believe in God.

savagewind · Aug 7, 2014

AK4 said:
Cool. What if I could show you how Jesus is transliterated from YHWH?

I know this belief system but having trouble recalling everything about it. You believe everything about Jesus but Hes not God or something like that? Am I close?

God created Jesus so therefore Jesus is not God right? Hes a great man, prophet, teacher etc etc and Hes even the Saviour of the world but Hes not God right?

Just trying to understand

I don't care about YHVH and Jesus. They use YHVH for power and Jesus is their Greek god. יְהוָ֖ה is God the highest. Yeshua meaning יְהוָ֖ה is salvation is god for me. Yeshua (Jesus) prayed that יְהוָ֖ה might remove the cup he was to suffer. Why would he ask his self to remove it and why wouldn't his self remove it if he is God?

I could bet on one subject that you do believe something that makes absolutely no sense at all, if you believe in God.

OK. Hit me with it!

savagewind · Aug 8, 2014

Please, I want to hear the one subject that I believe but makes no sense at all. Really! I am a nice girl and I DON'T bite so please tell me.

AK4 · Aug 8, 2014

savagewind said:
I don't care about YHVH and Jesus. They use YHVH for power and Jesus is their Greek god. יְהוָ֖ה is God the highest. Yeshua meaning יְהוָ֖ה is salvation is god for me. Yeshua (Jesus) prayed that יְהוָ֖ה might remove the cup he was to suffer. Why would he ask his self to remove it and why wouldn't his self remove it if he is God?

:clap:clap Ah the damage orthodox Christianity has done with their doctrine of the trinity. I understand why you said what you said. The truth is though there is no trinity and your questions, no one who believes in the trinity could answer them and make sense and not contradict themselves.

The truth is Jesus asked His Father as you know and so on and so forth. I don't think I need to go further as you are not deceived into the trinity doctrine.:clap:clap

AK4 · Aug 8, 2014

savagewind said:
Please, I want to hear the one subject that I believe but makes no sense at all. Really! I am a nice girl and I DON'T bite so please tell me.

Alrighty, ok, do you believe in freewill? A heads up---people have tried to twist and turn on this to try to make it so that they have freewill and still have a God by saying such stuff as the ludicrous as "no we don't have freewill, but we have limited freewill" and "I have free moral agency".

And it only gets more nonsensical from there. Granted it is the hardest thing to unlearn [because we have been taught and it "feeeeeels" like we have it] but once you know the truth of it, you wont believe that you believed something that absolutely makes no sense---honestly whether you believe in (a) God or not.

ps. If you haven't come to the truth on this, you, just like everyone confronted with this, will fight it tooth and nail. But don't fret, even Jesus doesn't have a freewill, even the Father doesn't have a freewill (because once He decided to be what He wanted to be [which is love] and introduced Himself to His creation He cant do the opposite of love).

BTW remember we both know the trinity doctrine is bogus.

So do you have/believe you have a freewill?

savagewind · Aug 8, 2014

So do you have/believe you have a freewill?

I do not venture into discussions of free will. What is it anyway?

I cannot make choices without paying for them. Will is not free but I have some freedom to make choices in harmony with my will.

AK4 · Aug 8, 2014

savagewind said:
savagewind said:

I do not venture into discussions of free will. What is it anyway?

Click to expand...

It is deep. Freewill is an illusion like depth perception. You feel like you have it, but you don't have it.

I cannot make choices without paying for them. Will is not free but I have some freedom to make choices in harmony with my will.

Click to expand...

Probably the one of the best answers Ive ever heard or read. I forgot to add in this with that list above though, "free choices" [that one slipped my mind lol sorry about that.]

johnpeter1970 · Dec 5, 2014

savagewind said:
I think I know why you believe there is nothing wrong with it. Is it you believe God caused the writing of it?

I know I believe in God because I want to. I have no better reason. I don't believe God caused the scriptures to be without error.

Why do you?

When unbelievers talk about the Bible or God, they leave out the Holy Spirit. They fail to understand that God is the one who is speaking through His Scripture. As it is written:

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

One cannot understand the Holy Scripture without the help of the Holy Spirit. You can see this clearly in the Book of the Apostles. See how the Apostles were transformed after they received the Holy Spirit.

The Word of God is dividing the Tares and the Wheat. The wicked will be offended by it.

sojourner · Dec 7, 2014

'mud said:
I could buy buying the New Testament if something in it reflected Jesus' real meaning when he supposedly said all of Paul(Saul), and Petre(Chepus) also known as Simon and then later Peter....anyway...I really would like something of what Jesus wrote in the way of scripture in his 32 or so years. It doesn't make any sense that he didn't. He was the son of his god, wasn't he ? Why wouldn't he carve one letter or mark one letter in the clay. No sense at all.
~
Without a word from Jesus, where's the value ? Believing a liars words compared to memories of the aged apostles...why my lord...that would be
something amazing !
~
'mud

It's not really all that remarkable that Jesus never wrote anything in a culture that was both largely oral and largely illiterate.

Why do you want to believe there is nothing wrong with Christian scripture?

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