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Christians -- unconditional grace?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Melody said:
Soooo....then the rapist who accepts Christ but continues to rape is good to go cuz he's saved?

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24


If we have true faith and are saved, our behavior will reflect that faith. While the "behavior" won't save us...the "behavior" is a reflection of our being saved.

I maintain that salvation has nothing to do with our faith or our works. Salvation is a work of God, carried out in the faith of God.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Melody said:
Some people are so buried in pride and arrogance that they won't recognize the light when it's shining in their eyes. The bible clearly says that not all will be saved. We can sit and say " well that's not what I believe" because we don't like the idea that our husbands, wives, children or friends may not accept Christ and will not be saved, but then it really doesn't matter what we believe.

The NT also talks about leading people astray with false beliefs. Teaching that everyone is saved just by virtue of Christ's sacrifice (without the need to accept that salvation or even acknowledge it any way...and to continue on your merry sinful path) seems to be false beliefs. But then that's just my view.

The God I know and have experienced is a God who loves all and saves all, in the end. The NT also talks about God's boundless love. It talks about how the kingdom is like a shepherd who searches for the lost sheep until he finds it, and how the kingdom is like a woman who sweeps the house until she finds the lost coin...not until death, not "for a while," not, "until I get tired," but until the lost are found. Those scriptures that speak of God's patience, forbearance, and love are most compelling for me.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Well, those who are wicked and have not accepted Christ's payment for their sins and who will not receive their new incorruptible (sinless) bodies, cannot be running around in Heaven.

Why not? They certainly can, if God allows them to!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No*s said:
I've thought about posting on this, and I've decided to go ahead and do it. *jumps in feet first*

What happens if Hell and Heaven aren't so much exclusion, but universal inclusion? I tend to view Hell as the experience of God where the individual's heart is not prepared to meet Him. This man would then experience God as Hell, while the man who was properly prepared would experience God as bliss. It's kind of the difference between roasting marshmellows on a fire and having pleasant company or jumping into the same fire. It's the same fire, and everyone there is in its presence.

I just figured I'd throw that out and see what you said (then go about substantiating it if we do have a discussion :)). Somebody may have...but I didn't read through the whole thing.

I'm not interested in the politics and dispensations of the afterlife, and I don't think God particularly is, either. I believe that, whatever happens to us after we die, God will be persistent in seeking us out and finding us. Time and eternity are on God's side!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Grace is the 'emotional and physical 'knowing and acceptance of God' within our hearts and souls.

Grace is an act of God, not an act of humanity. Grace is the ultimate pardon for sin. That's the ultimate reality of the love that is God. And, ultimately, we will all have to accept reality.
 
God is loving God, and we also see that he allows us to make a choice of wether or not to except him or not. Its not love when we are forced to love him, that is suppression. Also retaining to the rapist, if he continues to rape after he is saved then u have to question whether he was saved or not, but by what your going everyone is going to be saved even those who lived a life contrary to what God says is right, and thus showing their LACK of love towards God, and he wont force people to stay with him. I know people who want to go to hell and not be near God thats there choice. The bible is very clear on Salvation
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
sojourner said:
Grace is an act of God, not an act of humanity. Grace is the ultimate pardon for sin. That's the ultimate reality of the love that is God. And, ultimately, we will all have to accept reality.
I fully disagree. It takes both God and man for grace to grow. Grace is not the "pardon" for sin... it is becoming just like God. Our word for Character and Charismatic come from Charis (Grace in Greek). Obviously we can not become LIKE God on our own. But as we desire to be like God and submit ourselves to his will, God grants the change on our hearts.

You want grace???

II Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
sojourner said:
I'm not interested in the politics and dispensations of the afterlife, and I don't think God particularly is, either. I believe that, whatever happens to us after we die, God will be persistent in seeking us out and finding us. Time and eternity are on God's side!

So, in other words, you're "not interested in the politics and dispensations of the afterlife" except if it agrees with your statement :rolleyes:.

If you're going to make declarations like that to rebut someone, it is best not to make statements about people's lot in the afterlife. Even saying something positive is saying something about the "politics and dispensations." It would be internally consistent to say that you don't know anything or have anything to assert about the afterlife, but to make a contradicting statement about it while saying you aren't interested in such statements is rather disingenuous.
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
I personally feel that the term "saved" is being used very friviously these days.
I'll go along with that.

We are saved by God's grace ALONE. ALL WORKS to try and earn favor with God are futile. This includes the man made salvation program that Christian churches are preaching. "Just do this, and you'll be saved" is a work. We ALL will face judgement regardless of what you do or who you accept.
I would agree that there is nothing any of us could do to earn salvation, and that if it were not for Christ's atoning sacrifice, there would not be one soul good enough to return to Heaven. On the other hand, if we are saved by God's grace alone, then do you agree with Sojourner that God will save each and every human being who has ever lived or will live?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Geoffthe3rd said:
God is loving God, and we also see that he allows us to make a choice of wether or not to except him or not. Its not love when we are forced to love him, that is suppression. Also retaining to the rapist, if he continues to rape after he is saved then u have to question whether he was saved or not, but by what your going everyone is going to be saved even those who lived a life contrary to what God says is right, and thus showing their LACK of love towards God, and he wont force people to stay with him. I know people who want to go to hell and not be near God thats there choice. The bible is very clear on Salvation

Of course God doesn't force us to love God. But God is infinitely patient, and God seeks us out until God finds us. What is the reason why some resist God? To turn from God is to turn from love itself. What would influence someone to turn from love? Sooner or later, love will always triumph. Sooner or later, those who resist love will be drawn by love. When will that be? I don't know...but God has all eternity...
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
NetDoc said:
I fully disagree. It takes both God and man for grace to grow. Grace is not the "pardon" for sin... it is becoming just like God. Our word for Character and Charismatic come from Charis (Grace in Greek). Obviously we can not become LIKE God on our own. But as we desire to be like God and submit ourselves to his will, God grants the change on our hearts.

You want grace???

II Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV

Grace is defined as the state of receiving God's favor (in other words, pardon for sinfulness). We do not forgive ourselves, because we don't live under our own rules. We live under God's rules, because it's God's creation.

You want universal grace?

All peoples on earth will be blessed through you. Gen. 12:3

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Ex. 33:19

I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him. Ps. 22:27

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. Ps. 139:7-8

On this mountain the Lord Alm ighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine -- the best of meats and finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death for ever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. Is. 25:6-8

Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength." Is. 45:24

I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man -- the Holy One among you. I will not come in wrath. Hos. 11:9

I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Joel 2:28

Your Father is not willing that anyof these little ones should be lost. Matt. 18:14

My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations. Mark 11:17

All mankind will see God's salvation. Lk. 3:6

Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? Lk. 15:4

Suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? Lk. 15:8

When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself. Jn 12:32

I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. Jn. 12:47

You did not choose me, but I chose you. Jn. 15:16

All have sinned and fallen short or the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Rom. 3:23-24

etc. etc.

Should we, when we hear of this good news, not respond favorably? Of course we should. Is it required? At some point. When will that point be? In God's time...not ours.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No*s said:
So, in other words, you're "not interested in the politics and dispensations of the afterlife" except if it agrees with your statement :rolleyes:.

If you're going to make declarations like that to rebut someone, it is best not to make statements about people's lot in the afterlife. Even saying something positive is saying something about the "politics and dispensations." It would be internally consistent to say that you don't know anything or have anything to assert about the afterlife, but to make a contradicting statement about it while saying you aren't interested in such statements is rather disingenuous.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said "except." I'm not interested in speculating about heaven or hell -- who will be where. I don't think it ultimately means anything. God will ultimately get what God wants -- relationship will every person. When will that happen? I don't know, and I don't care. Who will report where upon death? I don't know and I don't care, because, ultimately, we will all be with God. What I care about is the finality of God's will for us, which is to be in relationship with God. Everything else is a moot point.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
sojourner said:
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said "except." I'm not interested in speculating about heaven or hell -- who will be where. I don't think it ultimately means anything. God will ultimately get what God wants -- relationship will every person. When will that happen? I don't know, and I don't care. Who will report where upon death? I don't know and I don't care, because, ultimately, we will all be with God. What I care about is the finality of God's will for us, which is to be in relationship with God. Everything else is a moot point.

Then I misunderstood you, but likewise, notice that I didn't quote you as saying "except" in any portion. I quoted you, then placed the "except" outside of parenthisis.

Here's what leads to that:

sojourner post #1 said:
I believe that God is love, that love is unconditional, and that God has created each one of us to live in relationship with God. I believe that God's love is greater than our will, and when we are faced with God's love, we will not be able to resist it.

sojourner post #2 said:
First of all, I never said that God knows who's saved or not. What I said was that salvation is universal.

Secondly, consider this: If God is omnipotent; If God is love and loves each one of us unconditionally, in what way is our free will stronger than God's ability to save us?

Third, who among us, if desperately hungry and faced with a sumptuous feast, wouldn't take what's offered?

Skipping down a bit,

sojourner post #28 said:
And I believe that the day Christ died the sin of the whole world was taken care of.

There is nothing we can do to gain salvation...and I believe that includes accepting the gift.

Christ paid the penalty for us.

Let me ask you a question (understanding that I'm not dissing your viewpoint -- I'm clarifying 1) where we differ and 2 why we differ:).

When does God's patience run out? When does God "take back" the gift that God offers? When is the covenant considered null and void? In the system you offer, does not death finally win over God's grace? I thought that "by his death, he destroyed death." That's why I believe what I believe. I believe in a God whose love never fails, who has triumphed over death, whose mercy endures for ever. In my experience, God is a God of ultimate love and ultimate forgiveness. That's why I can no longer believe in a God who says, "Oh well! I offered the gift. If you're not smart enough to accept it, that's not my problem."

I believe that God was so angry with what sin had done to humanity, that God sacrificed God's only Son to wipe out that sin...are we now to believe that the sacrifice was mostly in vain -- that God can't really expiagte sin without our say-so?

Am I misunderstanding you here? If so, then I apologize. I understand you to be arguing that what God wants is universal salvation. When supplied with the premise that "God ultimately gets what God wants," then you come up with a blatant statement about the afterlife. You aren't simply talking about what God wants; you are making definitive assertions about the afterlife if you assert a). "God ultimately gets what God wants" and then b). supply for us what God wants on the afterlife.

If I read you aright, then my "except" that I inserted (not as a quote, mind you), is an accurate interpretation of what you say, because it is a an assertion, by logical deduction, about the eternal state of men. If you are not aguing universalism on the basis of those tenets, then I decidedly need some illumination, because that's how I've read every point in this thread (or one building to it).
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
sojourner said:
Grace is defined as the state of receiving God's favor (in other words, pardon for sinfulness).
How do you arrive at this definition? Grace is a gift from God but that is not it's definition, but an attribute of it.

Here is where we have issues with our translations. What is a "Spiritual gift"? There are many. Grace, Charis, is one of them.

Jesus was "full of Grace" (Luke 2:40 John 1:14), he lacked NONE of them. He was truthful, he could speak in tongues, he loved, etc, etc... he was JUST LIKE GOD in each and every way.

What really then is Christianity about? A transformation of the HEART, which makes rules seem silly. So if we are to have the Charisma of God (his grace), what types of disciples ought we to be? We would be JUST LIKE JESUS, as Jesus is JUST LIKE GOD. Are any of us there yet? Nope... which is why we need to "GROW IN GOD'S GRACE".

Take a look at this scripture:

II Corinthians 9:6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever." 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift! NIV
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
NetDoc said:
How do you arrive at this definition? Grace is a gift from God but that is not it's definition, but an attribute of it.

Here is where we have issues with our translations. What is a "Spiritual gift"? There are many. Grace, Charis, is one of them.

Jesus was "full of Grace" (Luke 2:40 John 1:14), he lacked NONE of them. He was truthful, he could speak in tongues, he loved, etc, etc... he was JUST LIKE GOD in each and every way.

What really then is Christianity about? A transformation of the HEART, which makes rules seem silly. So if we are to have the Charisma of God (his grace), what types of disciples ought we to be? We would be JUST LIKE JESUS, as Jesus is JUST LIKE GOD. Are any of us there yet? Nope... which is why we need to "GROW IN GOD'S GRACE".

Take a look at this scripture:

II Corinthians 9:6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever." 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift! NIV

According to the Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms, 1996, McKim:
Grace: (Gr. charis, Lat. gratia, "favor," "kindness") Unmerited favor. God's grace is extended to sinful humanity in providing salvation and forgiveness through Jesus Christ that is not deserved, and withholding judgment that is deserved.

Grace is not a "spiritual gift" in the same manner as tongues, discernment, healing, etc., but it is a gift from God -- "...is not deserved," meaning that it is not by our own merit or work that grace is given to us, as a payment or reward, but an undeserved gift of kindness.

I believe that grace is imparted to every person, because God is infinitely loving, patient and kind.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Am I misunderstanding you here? If so, then I apologize. I understand you to be arguing that what God wants is universal salvation. When supplied with the premise that "God ultimately gets what God wants," then you come up with a blatant statement about the afterlife. You aren't simply talking about what God wants; you are making definitive assertions about the afterlife if you assert a). "God ultimately gets what God wants" and then b). supply for us what God wants on the afterlife.

If I read you aright, then my "except" that I inserted (not as a quote, mind you), is an accurate interpretation of what you say, because it is a an assertion, by logical deduction, about the eternal state of men. If you are not aguing universalism on the basis of those tenets, then I decidedly need some illumination, because that's how I've read every point in this thread (or one building to it).

No, you didn't misunderstand me, but I think I didn't explain the statement in question very carefully.

Let's look at your statement in question and then I'll see if I can explain mine more suitably:

So, in other words, you're "not interested in the politics and dispensations of the afterlife" except if it agrees with your statement :rolleyes:.

Your statement is incorrect, because I'm not interested in the politics and dispensations of the afterlife, as they were being discussed in the post to which I replied with the statement. It makes absolutely no difference to me whether the ideas are in agreement, or disagreement with me.

I do believe that God wants universal salvation. But, deeper than that, and more importantly, I believe that God's will is always done. Hence, the crux of the argument that politics ulitmately do not matter.

When everything is said and done, God will ultimately save every person. That's my belief, because that's how I find God revealed best in scripture and in personal experience. what things must happen in order to get us all to that point are relatively immaterial in the grand scheme of God's plan for us.

Some may (and are welcome to) disagree with me that God wants to save every person. They may even disagree with me that God's will is always accomplished.
But that's what I read in the Bible about God, and that's the belief that I've formulated about what I've read. It does not fall within the status quo of Christian theology. It threatens some folks, and challenges some folks. They have their premises about salvation, and I have mine.

Does that mean that I've formulated a definitive statement about what will happen to us? Absolutely! But I think you misunderstand what I mean about being disinterested. I'm highly interested in the final dispensation of humanity when I talk about universal grace. But what I'm not interested in are the "preliminaries" -- how we arrive at that final dispensation. Levels of heaven, hell, our works, our attitude -- these are all precursors to the final triumph of God over death.

Was that clearer for you?
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
sojourner said:
No, you didn't misunderstand me, but I think I didn't explain the statement in question very carefully.

Let's look at your statement in question and then I'll see if I can explain mine more suitably:



Your statement is incorrect, because I'm not interested in the politics and dispensations of the afterlife, as they were being discussed in the post to which I replied with the statement. It makes absolutely no difference to me whether the ideas are in agreement, or disagreement with me.

I do believe that God wants universal salvation. But, deeper than that, and more importantly, I believe that God's will is always done. Hence, the crux of the argument that politics ulitmately do not matter.

When everything is said and done, God will ultimately save every person. That's my belief, because that's how I find God revealed best in scripture and in personal experience. what things must happen in order to get us all to that point are relatively immaterial in the grand scheme of God's plan for us.

Some may (and are welcome to) disagree with me that God wants to save every person. They may even disagree with me that God's will is always accomplished.
But that's what I read in the Bible about God, and that's the belief that I've formulated about what I've read. It does not fall within the status quo of Christian theology. It threatens some folks, and challenges some folks. They have their premises about salvation, and I have mine.

Does that mean that I've formulated a definitive statement about what will happen to us? Absolutely! But I think you misunderstand what I mean about being disinterested. I'm highly interested in the final dispensation of humanity when I talk about universal grace. But what I'm not interested in are the "preliminaries" -- how we arrive at that final dispensation. Levels of heaven, hell, our works, our attitude -- these are all precursors to the final triumph of God over death.

Was that clearer for you?

Yes.

I will challenge it by pointing out that God doesn't always get what God wants. I would challenge that idea from Scripture. God did not desire Adam and Eve to fall. He actually commanded them not to eat of the tree. Either Adam and Eve violated His will and fell, or God desired what God had commanded not to occur. We can apply this same logic to every sin that men commit, including those the Lord calls "an abomination." God doesn't want them to happen, and they happen anyway.
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
Jesus was "full of Grace" (Luke 2:40 John 1:14), he lacked NONE of them. He was truthful, he could speak in tongues, he loved, etc, etc... he was JUST LIKE GOD in each and every way.
Except in appearance, huh? :D
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No*s said:
Yes.

I will challenge it by pointing out that God doesn't always get what God wants. I would challenge that idea from Scripture. God did not desire Adam and Eve to fall. He actually commanded them not to eat of the tree. Either Adam and Eve violated His will and fell, or God desired what God had commanded not to occur. We can apply this same logic to every sin that men commit, including those the Lord calls "an abomination." God doesn't want them to happen, and they happen anyway.

And yet, in the end, God chooses to save us from those abominations. If God is the End as well as the beginning, in what way can God's will ultimately not be done?

We are not puppets on strings. God will honor our decisions. Ultimately, I believe that God's patience, love and acceptance will wear us down.
 
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