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What are the Central Positive Messages you Learned from the Quran?

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon,



These are just a few of the concerns I have with the book.

Now the reason I'm focusing on topics that seem problematic to me is because of the claims that Muslims make about this book. If it was just any book then I could take the good with the bad, no problem. But Muslims claim that this is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God. Correct? This is an extraordinary claim. You must understand that for the rest of the world, this is an extraordinary claim. (To be fair, the scriptures of other religions also make extraordinary claims, Muslims are not alone in this regard.)

So when I read this book, it's completely fair for me to give it harsh scrutiny, agreed? There are plenty of books in the world that have positive messages like: be charitable, be kind, have patience and mercy and so on. All good messages to be sure, but none of them are unique to the Quran. So the fact that the Quran says stuff like "be merciful" - while nice - hardly makes it extraordinary.

In short, when you claim perfection, you should expect people to take a long hard look, and not just take your word for it.

Agreed.
 

ametist

Active Member
Based on my reading of the book: Allah made me to be a non-believer. He gave me my skeptical brain, my love of logic and evidence. He gave me an easy book to criticize. The book does claim, over and over and over again, that Allah is merciful. And it also claims that because I'm using my brain I'll be tortured in hell for eternity, and once the pain of having my skin burned off is over, he'll put a new skin on me so that I can go through that torture over and over again. It doesn't matter how good a life I live, if I don't believe in this book, I'm doomed. If I use the brain he gave me, he dooms me...

How again is this the proposition of a merciful god?

I have to say that whenever I read the sentence that Allah is merciful, I have to groan a little - the irony is almost too much to bear.
It isnt for using your brain you go to hell. You can happen to criticize the book while reading. You go to hell for not asking god's protection from satan on that same road of constant critique and for not asking god's mercy and for not seeing it as one true god. And you should also pray to god for being the one who believes in one true god because you cant tell that if you ever deviate from it. So humas are nothing without their prayers. If you dont use your mind you cant come to that conclusion. Still being in that conclusion may not sound 'positive'.but if it is so, then it is so.
 

ametist

Active Member
Hi firedragon,

You said:

If I accept your math (why not), that means that that message is probably one of the top 5 messages in the book. From a math perspective, if the book had only 12 messages then each would get 8% - but obviously there are many more than 8 messages, so for one message to get 8% of the book is actually a very large percentage. Does that make sense?

At the end you said:

And again I'll ask you: How do you know that your interpretation is the correct one and that Boko Haram's is the incorrect one?

True. Critique and threat on non believers is frequent. While you are reading those parts your heart automatically falls into a praying state if you are a believer and those parts increases heart of those believers. So they are mercy to them. If you are a nonbeliever you dont think they are gonna happen to you or they are true so they are nothing to you. But do they sound 'positive'? No.
What matters is that you understand without help and friendship of one true god you are nothing. This also may not sound 'positive'.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Ametist -

Do you know the idea of "thought crimes"? (It's not a common idea.) The thing is that it doesn't matter how much I pray. According to the Quran, Allah knows if I don't believe. So I can pray all I want, but if I don't believe the prayers, Allah will convict me of a "thought crime". Correct? In other words, Allah knows if a person is being a hypocrite.
 

ametist

Active Member
It isnt expected anyone to pray if they dont believe that it is gonna work.
Allah knows it if you dont believe or if your belief is accurate or not. This is also right.

I dont know if god will convict those who admit that they believe but momentarily fall into the trap of having other gods beside it (an example of thought crime in islam) but sincerely try not to do it and pray to god for such a thing not to happen.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Well someone like me doesn't have any gods at all, and if I said otherwise or I pretended to pray, I'd be lying.
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
I think I've been forthcoming in all the posts I've made in this forum. I've been working hard to understand what values Muslims hold. Do I have an agenda? Yup, I want people to understand each other better.

So, for example, if most Muslims believe free speech should be suspended when it comes to insulting religions, then I think we'd all be better off knowing that.

I thought you was engaging with me in the other thread..... why did u decide to start this topic and ignore the other one. I was waiting patiently for you to come back but all I got back from u was a visitor message telling me it was a nice convo... I was only getting started and could have given you contextual understanding on your questions regarding the Quran.

Not opinions.... but the contextual understanding. After our last tete a tete I was under the impression you understood why its important. Especially after the examples I gave you in science. Why are you still pursuing a flawed train of thought brother icehorse?

I hope you are not being disingenuous with your intentions here.

Looking forward to reading you soon.

Scimi
 
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Draupadi

Active Member
@Icehorse- I don't get it. This thread is about central positive messages from the Quran. And if anyone mentions any you dismiss them as being common and others present the negative ones. I am telling these people, are you sure you are serious about this thread?
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
Icehorse... u've had plenty of time to return back to my post... im guessing you will ignore it now I am on your "new" thread and go start yet another thread in clear avoidance of having to debate me.... I really do hope you are not a troll but all the evidence is starting to stack up neatly against you here.

Please respond to my last post in this thread. ... you're clearly playing a very foolish game.

Scimitar
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@Icehorse- I don't get it. This thread is about central positive messages from the Quran. And if anyone mentions any you dismiss them as being common and others present the negative ones. I am telling these people, are you sure you are serious about this thread?

Hi Draupadi,

When I framed the OP I did my best to frame the question to support a good discussion. As the discussion has proceeded I can see that I might frame the OP slightly differently if I had it to do over again. But I don't see the harm in refining the OP now...

I might ask "What positive messages did you learn from the Quran that were not already well known before the Quran was written down?"

So, for example, I agree that charity is a positive value. And it's fine that the Quran advises Muslims to be charitable. But the idea of charity existed in many societies long before the Quran was written.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Icehorse... u've had plenty of time to return back to my post... im guessing you will ignore it now I am on your "new" thread and go start yet another thread in clear avoidance of having to debate me.... I really do hope you are not a troll but all the evidence is starting to stack up neatly against you here.

Please respond to my last post in this thread. ... you're clearly playing a very foolish game.

Scimitar

Scimitar,

In the interest of positive relationships, I'll head back to the other thread. That said, I think your accusations are way off base.
 

Sega

Member
I might ask "What positive messages did you learn from the Quran that were not already well known before the Quran was written down?"

So, for example, I agree that charity is a positive value. And it's fine that the Quran advises Muslims to be charitable. But the idea of charity existed in many societies long before the Quran was written.

The Quran doesn't claim to have been something new. It's just a reminder for us.

Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibraheem [Abraham], Isma'il [Ishmael], Ishaaq [Isaac], Ayuub [Jacob], and the Tribes, and in the (the Books) Given to Musa [Moses], Isa [Jesus] And the Propehts, From their Lord" We make no distinction Between one and anotehr Among them, and to God do we Bow our will.

Surah 4, Nisa.

This is probably not the best ayah I could have quoted, but here, we can clearly see how it was sent to times before Muhammed.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Sega,

I'd feel differently if the Quran's back cover copy read:

"A compendium of positive values that humans have learned over the years".

Instead, the back cover copy is more like:

"This is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God and you humans wouldn't have any morals or ethics without God".

I think that's nonsense.
 

Sega

Member
Hi Sega,

I'd feel differently if the Quran's back cover copy read:

"A compendium of positive values that humans have learned over the years".

Instead, the back cover copy is more like:

"This is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God and you humans wouldn't have any morals or ethics without God".

I think that's nonsense.

In fact, I would have to say that it's kind of like that, but it's not as extreme as you're making it to be.

I have a feeling that perhaps your copy of the Quran says something like 'This is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God', and then you decided to add 'you humans wouldn't have any morals or ethics without God' to make this thread a bit juicier.

In the Quran, we learn that in various occasions and times, people have been sent messengers to guide them. Some of which have gone astray after their prophet and for that reason, a new one was sent to them, teaching them to abstain from their ignorant ways. Some people learned from their prophet and benefited, others disobeyed.

From your profile, I'm able to see that you're a 'spiritual reasonist'. Knowing that, I wonder why you think it is so wrong that God had taught us what is right from what is wrong. I take it you believe in the creation of Adam, the first man. God had taught him what was right from wrong and gave him free will and intelligence, just like we all do. From a religious point of view, it isn't that humans just learned these things on their own and started to be the beings that are able to learn things on their own with time, but we were given knowledge and prophets but sometimes fall short of what we learned. Since we're only humans, and we make mistakes, we are prone to disobedience and deviation from what we were taught to do.

So what I'm trying to get to is that God has started off with ethics and morals to start off with, but since we aren't perfect, we have on many occasions strayed away from them, and we were given prophets and messengers to guide us back on that path. Now, may I ask, what is so wrong with that?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Sega,

As I define "religion" and "spirituality" I can claim to recognize that we have a spiritual aspect AND that spirituality is COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of religion.

I am not a fan of religion at all. I don't think anybody's version of God created morality or ethics or scripture. I think we developed morality and ethics as we evolved, and that some humans a long time ago made up scripture and usurped mankind's morals and ethics and tried to claim that they came from their man-made book, not from the collective wisdom of their ancestors.

As evidence Sega, I'll claim that if you - personally - feel that the Bible is a peaceful book or that the Quran is a peaceful book, you arrived at that conclusion based on morality you learned elsewhere. Armed with fore-knowledge of morality, you were able to look through your scripture of choice and find verses here and there that support what you already knew going in.

In other words, this is good news for you - you don't need a book to teach you how to be a good person, you already know how!
 

Sega

Member
I'm afraid I could use this same argument against you, thus making it pointless.

Knowing violence in the world around you, and what you know to be violent, you use what you thought was a violent book, the Quran I presume, and use verses you found to be promoting violence to support what you already knew to be violent going in.

Now, going back to what you were saying about the Quran being nothing new, I guess you can concede in that argument. It never did say what in it is so new, earlier I had said how it was a reminder for a people's that had gone astray.

To those of us who had been fasting in the month of Ramadan.

“O you who believe! Observing As-Sawm (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become pious”

[al-Baqarah 2:183]
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm afraid I could use this same argument against you, thus making it pointless.

Knowing violence in the world around you, and what you know to be violent, you use what you thought was a violent book, the Quran I presume, and use verses you found to be promoting violence to support what you already knew to be violent going in.

Now, going back to what you were saying about the Quran being nothing new, I guess you can concede in that argument. It never did say what in it is so new, earlier I had said how it was a reminder for a people's that had gone astray.

To those of us who had been fasting in the month of Ramadan.

“O you who believe! Observing As-Sawm (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become pious”

[al-Baqarah 2:183]

The difference is that I don't claim the book to be perfect and I don't claim that it - or any other scripture - is the source of morality. Perhaps I misunderstood you? I thought you said that you learned about morality from the Quran?

So when I hear ISIS or Boko Haram or Hamas tell the world that they are following Islam, their messages line up perfectly with many messages I read in the Quran. They are making claims that are extremely easy to defend.

So my conclusion is that since Hamaa-types can get their marching orders from the Quran, and you can find peaceful messages from the same book, it's not as much about the book as it is what you bring to the book. It strikes me that you're giving the book power and credit it doesn't deserve. The peaceful values you find in the book you brought in with you. How is that not the case?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The difference is that I don't claim the book to be perfect and I don't claim that it - or any other scripture - is the source of morality. Perhaps I misunderstood you? I thought you said that you learned about morality from the Quran?
...
So my conclusion is that since Hamaa-types can get their marching orders from the Quran, and you can find peaceful messages from the same book, it's not as much about the book as it is what you bring to the book. It strikes me that you're giving the book power and credit it doesn't deserve. The peaceful values you find in the book you brought in with you. How is that not the case?
Typically I would agree with you - the psychological phrase is "confirmation bias" - we find what confirms our opinions.

But while I think it's typically true, I don't think it's necessarily true for all. There are some, perhaps few, who can approach scripture with what I could call a scientific (open minded) attitude.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
We could look at this question from the perspective of attribution. Can we all agree that the following list of people all made huge contributions to modern society and that we - universally - give them credit? In other words we give attribution to these people:

Plato, Galileo, Omar Khayyam, Newton, Einstein, the list goes on and on.

What did you learn from the Quran that you can attribute to the Quran. For example if you say the Quran teaches charity, well that's fantastic, but we can find examples of teaching charity long before the Quran came along. So we cannot "attribute" charity to the Quran. In this case the Quran just passed along a good idea.

(BTW, I feel this question could equally well be applied to other scripture. In other words I think ALL scripture borrows from existing morals and tries to claim attribution.)

So what positive values did you learn from the Quran that can't be attributed to earlier wisdom?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
...
So what positive values did you learn from the Quran that can't be attributed to earlier wisdom?

I don't know of anything utterly unique. But that is also true of the New Testament in the Bible. To me, all the major scriptures of the world religions are like different clothes that the Truth wears. They look different and may emphasize different aspects but the essential truth is the same.
 
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