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The Golden Calf
- Thread starter Spike900
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
tashaN said:
The topic has veered off a long time ago.
I don't believe in prophets, but what I do see (or read) is that the Gold Calf incidence in Exodus, showed a far more realistic view of prophets, being humans, would have human emotion, like fear and anxiety, than paarsurrey's view that prophets were sinless and perfect, can't make mistake, and so on.
Did Aaron do what the crowd called for, through intimidation and pressures? That could happen, regardless if Aaron was a prophet or not. The masses could cower anyone.
Though, Aaron was a prophet, he wasn't the chosen one. Most of the miracles were performed by Moses, not Aaron. He (Aaron) was made a prophet because Moses feared public speaking. And despite being the eldest of the two, Aaron was subordinated to his younger brother.
Was Muhammad fearless, when he first claimed to be a prophet in Mecca? Did he not flee when he and his companions were threatened? Why didn't he stay and perform a miracle for the pagan Meccans?
It would have been miraculous, had Muhammad stayed, but he didn't. And he didn't return to Mecca, until he was backed by large army, and was recently victorious in Medina and in defeating Meccan army.
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Aaron was indeed pressured by the crowed and i have pointed that out early in this thread and supported my stance with verses from the Quran.
Moses flee as well, then when they reached the sea Moses split the sea so they crossed but the Pharoah and his followers didn't in the famous story. So, only sons of Israel survived.
When it comes to Mohamed, he didn't want them destroyed, he wanted them to be guided, and even if they didn't believe, their off-spring might believe, not to mention the fact that Islam is the last message to humanity, so the only relative miracle would be a continous miracle for humanity, the Quran, not a temporary one which only one group of people at a specific time would witness.
outhouse
Atheistically
Because using a muslim source, you claim is gods word, you have no business discussing Israelite mythology and theology.
Your book is never used as any historical source for the possibility of such events because historians view it as plagiarized.
If they want to know the mythology better, they go to the bible, the direct source to determine what is and is not historical.
outhouse
Atheistically
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
You don't understand because it doesn't make sense. Here is the Quranic version that really makes sense.
Moses brother Aaron had been afraid to stand up to the people but when he saw the idol and realized what a grave sin was being committed he spoke up. He reminded the people to worship God Alone and he warned them of dire consequences. However, when Moses returned to his people he saw them idol worshiping and he was furious - so he asked Aaron.
"And even though, before that, Aaron had said to them: O my people, indeed you are being tried in this, and indeed your [true] Lord is only the Merciful. Therefore, follow me and obey my directives." (Al Qur'an 20:90)
"He [Moses] said: O Aaron, what hindered you from stopping them when you saw them going astray?" (Al Qur'an 20:92)
"And when Moses returned to his people, angry and sorrowful, he said: 'Evil is the thing you did in my absence! Would you hasten the retribution of your Lord? He threw down the Tablets and, seizing his brother by the hair, dragged him closer. 'Son of my mother,' cried Aaron, 'the people overpowered me and almost killed me. Do not let my enemies gloat over me; do not consider me among the wrongdoers'. 'Lord,' said Moses, 'forgive me and my brother. Admit us to Your mercy, for, of all those that show mercy, You are the most merciful.'" (Al Qur'an 7:150-151)
Prophets should act and behave like Prophets and that's how all the Prophets are depicted as in the Qur'an. Listen to Joshua Evans' story, that's exactly what he says made him convert to Islam.
[Youtube]IYMKQKSV0bY[/Youtube]
How the Bible Led Me to Islam: The Story of a Former Christian Youth Minister - Joshua Evans
Peace.
outhouse
Atheistically
It does not make sense to anyone. There are passages that just do not. And your own people murder each other over these interpretations.
And moses and aaron are not even historical people
I would rather follow truth in history.
Now that is history
No wonder muslims avoid credible history at all cost.
no comment.
outhouse
Atheistically
Really, you should not debate history. Because you refuse all credible knowledge on the subject in favor of fundamentalist ideas.
If you stay in the same faith section, you wont get called for promoting pseudo history and mythology as being credible history.
Ok Mr. Credible Man, go save history since you already know it all.
gnostic
The Lost One
That's not nice.outhouse said:
This is a debate question with regards to religious matter, not a historical matters.
Whether Moses, Aaron or other prophets exist, is not question about history. It is about theological matters, between what were written in Exodus and what were written in the Qur'an.
If it was a question of history, I would agree with you. But it is not.
It is about the contents of two different religious books.
So I think tashaN here, and even paarsurrey, have the rights to express their own views here, even I though I (or you or others) might disagree with them.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Source: The Story of the Golden Calf | Madrasah Ummul Hasanaat
The calf of course was dead and could not make a sound, but to the ignorant this was magical indeed. Since superstition was imbedded in their past, they quickly linked the strange sound to something supernatural, as if it were a living god. Some of them accepted the golden calf as their god.
Nabi Haroon (Alayhis Salaam) said 0 my people! You have been deceived. Your Lord is the Most Beneficent. Follow and obey me.
They replied: We shall stop worshipping this god only if Moosa returns. Those who had remained steadfast in belief separated themselves from the idolaters. On his return Moosa (Alayhis Salaam) saw his people singing and dancing around the golden calf statue. In shock and fury of what he had observed, Moosa (Alayhis Salaam) dropped the sacred Tablets and he pulled the beard and hair of his brother Nabi Haroon (Alayhis Salaam) crying: What held you back when you saw them going astray? From following me? Didst thou then disobey my order? Surah Taw-haa 92-93
Haroon (Alayhis Salaam) replied: 0 son of my mother, Seize (me) not by my beard nor by (the hair of) my head! Truly I feared lest thou shouldst say, Thou has caused a division among the children of Israel, and thou didst not respect my word!
Moosas (Alayhis Salaam) anger began to subside when he understood the helplessness of his brother, and he began to handle the situation calmly and wisely.
Looking for answers, he turned to the people. They said: We broke not the promise to you, of our own will, but we were made to carry the weight of the ornaments of the (Pharaohs) people, then we cast them (into the fire), and that was what Saamiri suggested.
Then he took out (of the fire) for them a statue of a calf which seemed to low. They said: This is your ilaah (god), and the ilaah (god) of Moosa, but (Moosa) has forgotten (his god).
Did they not see that it could not return them a word (for answer), and that it had no power either to harm them or to do them good?
And Haaroon indeed had said to them beforehand: 0 my people! You are being tried in this, and verily, your Lord is (Allah) the Most Beneficent, so follow me and obey my order.
They said: We will not stop worshipping it (i.e. the calf), until Moosa returns to us. Surah Qasas: 87-91
outhouse
Atheistically
Agreed, I have lost patient due to the fundamentalism.
There is no debating with people who make such claims.
If you read the OP he asked a question relating to the Israelite mythology.
islam has no part in such, as they view only their version is correct, and the Jewish text are all corrupt.
I don't mind trying to teach, but not to people who think 2 + 1 = 7 and refuse to accept 3 no matter how peaceful you try and tell and show them with credible sources.
And so you know, I started out very friendly with our msulim friend, before reason went out the window.
outhouse
Atheistically
What an arrogant statement! You really think you are using reason?
Your judgement is being clouded with your inability to defferentiate between the real Quran, and the Quran in your head. So, i invite you to read the Quran before judging it.
outhouse
Atheistically
See that is where your ignorance shines.
Its not about the Koran, I have no issue with the book.
Its the people that take it out of context that I have issues with.
Its interpretation, which your own kind kill each other over
You refuse to accept its plagiarized mythology in places. The rest of the world does not give this truth a second thought as its common knowledge.
I have provided credible links and information based on education and knowledge, you have literally trashed every single one. Who do you think you are to discount what professors and universities teach everywhere???
See that is where your ignorance shines.
Its not about the Koran, I have no issue with the book.
Its the people that take it out of context that I have issues with.
Its interpretation, which your own kind kill each other over
You refuse to accept its plagiarized mythology in places. The rest of the world does not give this truth a second thought as its common knowledge.
I have provided credible links and information based on education and knowledge, you have literally trashed every single one. Who do you think you are to discount what professors and universities teach everywhere???
All those professionals examined the bible, not the Quran. The weakness in your argument stem from the fact that you are equating the Bible with the Quran which is wrong. It seems you are either under the impression that the Quran is plagiarized, which is not, or you simply don't care to see the difference between them. Although God has revealed the previous scriptures, but there have been huge editing to it, so God sent the last message to humanity, the Quran.
you won't find a single error in the *Quran*. If it's true that the Quran is not authentic and it simply has been palatalized, then this is your chance to come up with errors, in it to prove your point, no i mean a single error.
outhouse
Atheistically
Nothing at all.
This is not historical, that is faith, and it has no place developing real history.
Ridiculous
Your book is an edited version of the bible.
The fact is, people, religions and cultures evolve. And the text they possess, needs to change with them.
The early Canaanite mythology needed to expand and be modified as Israelites started building their own identity. Then the Israelites cultures changed. later on the Hellenist in the Diaspora modified the bible due to their cultural needs and the NT was born
Your culture found the need to change the bible for its own needs and did just that.
Man goes in a cave, but everyone outside the cave knew all about the mythology in the bible.
Not a word I said is up for debate. Its just a matter of you accepting the facts of what is actually known, and if you have not studied it. Your ignorant and don't have a say so here.
Divine inspiration, is not historical, or even known to exist outside positive thinking and imagination.
outhouse
Atheistically
ON matters of Abraham, his family, Moses, the Exodus, and Noah.
There is not one credible historian in the world that uses your book to investigate ANY historical truth, looking for a possible historical core. For those mentioned above.
Your books have no historicity in these matters.
There is not one credible historian in the world that uses your book to investigate ANY historical truth, looking for a possible historical core. For those mentioned above.
Your books have no historicity in these matters.
Yeah, it's faith and i don't know where i have stated otherwise? :sarcastic
You have no answer, i understand.
Yet, you can't prove it.
That's why i said you know nothing about the Quran. You are clueless.
Where did i claim the Quran is a history book?
Read post #172:
You don't know what the Quran is. It's not a history book, it's a spiritual book, so i'm not concerned with your childish claims. You asked me if the Quran says it was a global and i proved based on the Quran that there is no indication that it was global, period.
The second chapter in the Quran explain what it is about.
{1} الم
Alif Lam Mim.
{2} ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ
This is the book; in it is guidance, sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
{3} الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
{4} وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَبِالْآخِرَةِ هُمْ يُوقِنُونَ
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
{5} أُولَئِكَ عَلَى هُدًى مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ وَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ
They are on (true guidance), from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.