Why do you want to believe there is nothing wrong with Christian scripture?

Draupadi · Jul 23, 2014

savagewind said:
Please show me where the scolding is so I can't do it again. Or just say your use of the word "sorry" was a euphemism.

If I am "sorry" I do not know something then NOT to be "sorry" (an unpleasant feeling) I would learn. It is what I meant. I am old enough to have thickened up my skin.

My saying "I am not sorry for you" is me saying I think you are fine and should not be sorry.

Oh I am sorry. I take my words back. I misunderstood you for the exclamation mark.

savagewind · Jul 23, 2014

Draupadi said:
Oh I am sorry. I take my words back. I misunderstood you for the exclamation mark.

Thank you

AK4 · Jul 25, 2014

kjw47 said:
kjw47 said:

Yes I agree that Gods kingdom will be ruling not only the heavens, but the Earth,Moon and all of creation. And his word teaches--144,000( numbered)

Click to expand...

The 144,000 is not literal, as everything in the book of Revelation signified/symbolized.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Strong's Concordance

sémainó: to give a sign
Original Word: σημαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sémainó
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I signify, indicate
Definition: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from séma (a sign, mark)
Definition
to give a signNASB Translation
communicated (1), indicate (3), signifying (2).

go to heaven( first resurrection)

Click to expand...

Where does it say the 144,000 go to heaven? It doesn't. The scriptures say they meet Jesus and those who were sleep (dead) in the air (yes the air/sky can be called heaven and another note air is on earth. There is no air in space).

Also the 144,000 is a symbol, proof...

Rev 7:9After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count

Notice this was said immediately after 144,000 was said.

to rule as kings and priests alongside of Jesus during his millennial reign--ruling and judging the earth( 2nd resurrection)

Click to expand...

Millennial or 1000 years again a symbol, not literal. Also you should check this out about Rev 20:5

Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*

http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/...tantin - Discovery of Sinaitic Manuscript.pdf

This verse is said to be spurious and it is because it makes no sense. How you ask? The people who will rule as kings and priests with Jesus have to have someone to rule over and judge. If the people are not raised until after the 1000 years, who were they ruling and judging over? Check out that list from
Tischendorf.

The atmosphere was referred to as heaven( Elijah-chariot)---space is referred to as heavens as well as the place where God dwells.

Click to expand...

As I answered before. But as for the highlighted part, no where does it say God dwells in space. It says God is everywhere, God dwells in His temple and God is in you. Did you know that the Kingdom of Heaven is really Kingdom of the heavens? So put it all together...the Kingdom of the heavens, who are the heavens---the Kingdom. Who are the Kingdom or what is the Kingdom made up of? The 144,000/saints/those who overcame etc or in other words PEOPLE. What do the scriptures say about the people? "You are the temple of the living God". Where does God dwell again? In His temple, in you. And last but not least so those saints stay humble

2 Chronicles 2:6
... But who is able to build him a house, since heaven and the heaven of heavens
can't contain him...

AK4 · Jul 25, 2014

savagewind said:
Another idea I shall share. It is believed Jesus said "Heaven and Earth will pass away". He might have meant Heaven and Earth is subject to passing away but my words cannot pass away. It means to me his words are able to keep them both.

Here is a couple of ways my friend helped to explain scripturally heaven to me:

Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock.

God's heaven is a higher spiritual realm of life and existence, not a geographical location in outer space.

Hope that helps a little

and this

"Heaven" has several meanings, as well as the fact that there are multiple "heavens." "In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth" according to the Hebrew.

When God refers to Babylon or Capernaum as being lifted up to "heaven," it is not referring to God's throne, but merely as being "high," "lofty," "exalted," etc. Jesus, however, came out of the "heaven" of His Father's realm, not high up in the sky or from outer space.

Muffled · Jul 26, 2014

savagewind said:
I think I know why you believe there is nothing wrong with it. Is it you believe God caused the writing of it?

I know I believe in God because I want to. I have no better reason. I don't believe God caused the scriptures to be without error.

Why do you?

I believe it is possible for scripture to contain errors but that does not mean that the errors are wrong. I believe scripture is the way God intended it to be and that makes it right.

I want to believe scripture is right because I firmly believe God doesn't make mistakes.

Muffled · Jul 26, 2014

savagewind said:
I have heard it said many times that to admit a scripture is wrong is to admit the whole thing then cannot be trusted.

I can't see it is a black/white problem like that.

I see it the other way around. I believe a scripture without errors would mean a carefully contrived and edited document and therfore a lot less trustworthy.

Muffled · Jul 26, 2014

ScuzManiac said:
Because it's the easy way out.

People don't want to question what it says.

They just want something they can believe in and call it a day.

Thinking can be too much of a task for some people...

I like the KISS principle myself.

blueman · Jul 26, 2014

savagewind said:
I think I know why you believe there is nothing wrong with it. Is it you believe God caused the writing of it?

I know I believe in God because I want to. I have no better reason. I don't believe God caused the scriptures to be without error.

Why do you?

How do you define error? If you are referring to divergence in what are secondary issues among the Gospel writings, I would not classify as errors. Where is the divergence specific to the central Christian doctrine? The Gospels and Paul's Epistles/letters were written independently. They did not all get together and say Let's craft the New Testament.

AK4 · Jul 26, 2014

blueman said:
How do you define error? If you are referring to divergence in what are secondary issues among the Gospel writings, I would not classify as errors. Where is the divergence specific to the central Christian doctrine? The Gospels and Paul's Epistles/letters were written independently. They did not all get together and say Let's craft the New Testament.

I will let the Word of God answer you

2 tim 4:9 Do your best to come to me quickly, 10for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia. 11Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, because he is helpful to me in my ministry. 12I sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.

Why the scrolls and the parchments?

2 pet 3:14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lords patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Put these two together and you see that Paul had Mark take his epistles and writings to Peter and had them approved by the one who Jesus said "had the keys to the kingdom", namely Peter.

And it should be obvious that copies of Paul letters were already being circulated among believers and some where being distorted and forged but Peter got Paul originals and approved those and basically gave his seal of approval.

Theres your answer

kjw47 · Jul 26, 2014

AK4 said:
The 144,000 is not literal, as everything in the book of Revelation signified/symbolized.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Strong's Concordance

sémainó: to give a sign
Original Word: σημαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sémainó
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I signify, indicate
Definition: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from séma (a sign, mark)
Definition
to give a signNASB Translation
communicated (1), indicate (3), signifying (2).

Where does it say the 144,000 go to heaven? It doesn't. The scriptures say they meet Jesus and those who were sleep (dead) in the air (yes the air/sky can be called heaven and another note air is on earth. There is no air in space).

Also the 144,000 is a symbol, proof...

Rev 7:9After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count

Notice this was said immediately after 144,000 was said.

Millennial or 1000 years again a symbol, not literal. Also you should check this out about Rev 20:5

Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*

http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/...tantin - Discovery of Sinaitic Manuscript.pdf

This verse is said to be spurious and it is because it makes no sense. How you ask? The people who will rule as kings and priests with Jesus have to have someone to rule over and judge. If the people are not raised until after the 1000 years, who were they ruling and judging over? Check out that list from
Tischendorf.

As I answered before. But as for the highlighted part, no where does it say God dwells in space. It says God is everywhere, God dwells in His temple and God is in you. Did you know that the Kingdom of Heaven is really Kingdom of the heavens? So put it all together...the Kingdom of the heavens, who are the heavens---the Kingdom. Who are the Kingdom or what is the Kingdom made up of? The 144,000/saints/those who overcame etc or in other words PEOPLE. What do the scriptures say about the people? "You are the temple of the living God". Where does God dwell again? In His temple, in you. And last but not least so those saints stay humble

2 Chronicles 2:6
... But who is able to build him a house, since heaven and the heaven of heavens
can't contain him...

Click to expand...

The whole reason that the great crowd--no man can number is said like that--is because the 144,000 are numbered( literal) = the anointed-the little flock--the bride of Christ---only these are promised heaven.

Elijah didn't go to the place where God dwells--he went through our atmosphere to another part of the earth.

blueman · Jul 26, 2014

savagewind said:
Another idea I shall share. It is believed Jesus said "Heaven and Earth will pass away". He might have meant Heaven and Earth is subject to passing away but my words cannot pass away. It means to me his words are able to keep them both.

Heaven and earth passing away speaks to the universe and physical earth, not the heavenly realm. God promises us an eternal inheritance with Him. His promises (His Word) does not pass away and we (who believe) are assured of that.

AK4 · Jul 26, 2014

kjw47 said:
The whole reason that the great crowd--no man can number is said like that--is because the 144,000 are numbered( literal) = the anointed-the little flock--the bride of Christ---only these are promised heaven.

Elijah didn't go to the place where God dwells--he went through our atmosphere to another part of the earth.

So in a book that says that it is symbolized, one can say this right here is literal? Lets take a literal look at it then, "great crowd that no man can number" yet it says "144,000". Do you see the contradiction? Making something literal when its not produces contradiction or in other words a lie.

Do you want to continue your refute?

I not even going to touch your statement on them being promised heaven.

savagewind · Jul 26, 2014

Muffled said:
I believe it is possible for scripture to contain errors but that does not mean that the errors are wrong. I believe scripture is the way God intended it to be and that makes it right.

Wrong scripture is not intended but permitted.

I want to believe scripture is right because I firmly believe God doesn't make mistakes.

Can you believe there is a significant difference between The Word made flesh, who is God's son, and the written word or scripture?

On one hand The Living Spirit The Creator God who no man can know and on the other hand some words written down by PEOPLE, copied by them and translated by them. How can you say they are the same?

If a person understands a scripture wrong it isn't God who is making a mistake. It is the believer who is.

Jesus is the perfect reflection of God. The Bible is not a perfect reflection of The Son. It just isn't. Why do you want it to be?

AK4 · Jul 27, 2014

Originally Posted by Muffled View Post
I believe it is possible for scripture to contain errors but that does not mean that the errors are wrong. I believe scripture is the way God intended it to be and that makes it right.

Sorry to interrupt yall convo but this is Christian doublespeak.

You're basically saying that the scriptures, not bible translations, are filled with errors.
If you believe the scriptures are full of errors, you might as well throw away your religion.

Think about it

kjw47 · Jul 27, 2014

AK4 said:
So in a book that says that it is symbolized, one can say this right here is literal? Lets take a literal look at it then, "great crowd that no man can number" yet it says "144,000". Do you see the contradiction? Making something literal when its not produces contradiction or in other words a lie.

Do you want to continue your refute?

I not even going to touch your statement on them being promised heaven.

Rev 1:5,6--these Are the little flock-( Luke 12:32)-the anointed--only. The first resurrection( Heaven)

Rev 14:3--144,000 bought from the earth-)--bought with Jesus blood--this is his bride, to rule as kings and priests, sitting on thrones judging the ones on earth
Jesus promised the earth to the great crowd.( the 2nd resurrection to earth)

AK4 · Jul 27, 2014

kjw47 said:
kjw47 said:

Rev 1:5,6--these Are the little flock-( Luke 12:32)-the anointed--only. The first resurrection( Heaven

Click to expand...

I never contended that the 144,000 weren't the little flock or anointed. The issue here is you think 144000 is literal.

By the way show me 2 verses that says the anointed are promised heaven. We do have on the other hand verses that says they will inherit the earth.

Heres one and its a great example

3Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

These are the anointed right? Of course. Theirs is the KINGDOM of the heavens not theirs is heaven. And we should know by now that the KINGDOM will rule with Jesus on EARTH. (This should end your rebuttal that this is a proof that the anointed get heaven) and to further that notice FOR THEY WILL INHERIT THE EARTH.

Rev 14:3--144,000 bought from the earth-)--bought with Jesus blood--this is his bride, to rule as kings and priests, sitting on thrones judging the ones on earth
Jesus promised the earth to the great crowd.( the 2nd resurrection to earth

Click to expand...

Now lets notice a contradiction, you say:

Jesus promised the earth to the great crowd

The scriptures say:

5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

So since the poor and the meek get the kingdom [the kingdom is the people and all that it entails to be like Jesus] of the heavens and inherit the earth, why do you say that the great crowd isn't the same as the 144000/the meek/the poor?

Either the scriptures are contradicting or you. See what happens when you make something literal that isn't literal

kjw47 · Jul 27, 2014

AK4 said:
I never contended that the 144,000 weren't the little flock or anointed. The issue here is you think 144000 is literal.

By the way show me 2 verses that says the anointed are promised heaven. We do have on the other hand verses that says they will inherit the earth.

Heres one and its a great example

3“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

These are the anointed right? Of course. Theirs is the KINGDOM of the heavens not theirs is heaven. And we should know by now that the KINGDOM will rule with Jesus on EARTH. (This should end your rebuttal that this is a proof that the anointed get heaven) and to further that notice FOR THEY WILL INHERIT THE EARTH.

Now lets notice a contradiction, you say:

Jesus promised the earth to the great crowd

The scriptures say:

5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

So since the poor and the meek get the kingdom [the kingdom is the people and all that it entails to be like Jesus] of the heavens and inherit the earth, why do you say that the great crowd isn't the same as the 144000/the meek/the poor?

Either the scriptures are contradicting or you. See what happens when you make something literal that isn't literal

Click to expand...

The kingdom of heaven( at that point in time) will be ruling all creation forever, once the meek inherit the earth--The great crowd stay on earth, 2nd resurrection to the earth. No matter where one is standing, heaven, earth, or moon--they will be in Gods kingdom. The only ruling authority ever again. ( at that point)---The throne is in heaven--that is why its referred to as the kingdom of heaven.

savagewind · Jul 27, 2014

kjw47 said:
AK4 said:

The kingdom of heaven( at that point in time) will be ruling all creation forever, once the meek inherit the earth--The great crowd stay on earth, 2nd resurrection to the earth. No matter where one is standing, heaven, earth, or moon--they will be in Gods kingdom. The only ruling authority ever again. ( at that point)---The throne is in heaven--that is why its referred to as the kingdom of heaven.

Click to expand...

Are you aware God is ruling now through Jesus Christ?

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God 1 Cor 11:3

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18

AK4 · Jul 28, 2014

savagewind said:
Are you aware God is ruling now through Jesus Christ?

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God 1 Cor 11:3

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18

Thank you for answering for me. Yes

quote=kjw47;3858360]The kingdom of heaven( at that point in time) will be ruling all creation forever

See I understand you may not know this but even this whole statement is unscriptural. Okay so forever right?... The kingdom of heaven will be ruling forever? Thus in turn, their ruler Jesus will be ruling forever. Good analyses of your words right? The kingdom and Jesus will rule forever...now what does the scripture say?

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, [Why?] so that God may be all in all. [/COLOR]

Reign forever you say?

once the meek inherit the earth--The great crowd stay on earth, 2nd resurrection to the earth.

So now once the meek inherit the earth, the kingdom of heaven will...become the kingdom of heaven? Youre not making sense. They will be ruling forever ONCE the meek inherit the earth? See the contradiction again? Forever and once.

No matter where one is standing, heaven, earth, or moon--they will be in Gods kingdom.

I am very thankful to God that you understand the salvation of all:yes:

kjw47 · Jul 29, 2014

savagewind said:
kjw47 said:

Are you aware God is ruling now through Jesus Christ?

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God 1 Cor 11:3

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18

Click to expand...

Yes savagewind, I am aware that Jesus sits on his throne in heaven, ruling. But it clearly shows it was given to him--by the one Jesus taught is greater than him--his Father-Jehovah.

Why do you want to believe there is nothing wrong with Christian scripture?

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