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Shak34

Active Member
Jehovah's Witnesses know Jesus did not say "I am going, therefore disciple the nations" and that he did say "Go! Make disciples of the nations". I asked "how do you know?" And they said "apostate!" "trouble maker!" "Vilifyer!" I think my husband is a genius or pretty close. I think I am smart but he is ten times smarter than me. For an hour I was feeling so bad because their words are so mean I asked him if he knew what vilify meant. And he didn't exactly know. To vilify Jehovah God is to sin against the Holy Spirit. QUESTION ALERT! Isn't it? Is vilifying Jehovah God sinning against the Holy Spirit? So they have said it is what I have done. There is no forgiveness for it. I might as well just go kill myself.

Doesn't the bible say to test every spirit. If you test their spirit by asking questions I don't see how that would vilifying against God or the Holy Spirit.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Carefully minded and cut quotes out of context? :shrug: That is why I put in all of the citations so anyone can look them up.
How many people will? Apostates count on the fact that people are lazy and will believe what they see in print, regardless of whether it is in context or not. It is human nature.

You are free to believe whatever your heart desires. That is the point of the whole exercise. God has a people who are fulfilling Jesus command to peach about the kingdom earth wide before the end comes. I can't see anyone else doing that on a global scale...can you? (Matt 24:14; 10:11-15; 28:19, 20)

Oh, how deceiving I am.:facepalm: If you would like me to put in more of the article so you can see all of it in context I would be more than happy to accommodate.
I don't think you are purposely deceiving, but I do believe that you yourself have been deceived by others. If people can be turned away from the son of God through clever propaganda, what makes you think you are immune to it? (John 15:19, 20)

As you said, people are free to look up the citations for themselves....but how are they going to do that? It isn't "more of the article" that is necessary...it is the whole article, with everything written presented intact. If it is a two part article, then it is necessary to read both parts. I have seen things fudged before to present us in a bad light. You can believe it if you wish. That is your choice to make.

I am against slander myself, please tell me when slandering has taken place.
If what you promote is not the truth but a twisted version of it presented to you by someone else, even if you think it is correct, you are still supporting slander.

Did Eve believe that the devil was slandering God by suggesting that he was lying and had bad motives in telling them that the TKGE was off limits? Or did she think satan was telling the truth and that God was everything the devil said he was? Our perceptions of things can be way off when something is 'marketed' the right way...leading to doubt. The devil is a master of deception. How does it work? You demonize the other fellows 'product' and tell people how bad it is for them and then tell them how good your product is so that they will throw out the opposition's product and buy yours. Advertisers have used this tactic to sell stuff for decades.

I can take anything out of context and make it sound like the opposite of what it stated. Satan has the ability to make black look white and vice versa.

Jehovah is allowing us all to make our choices based on what we want to believe. At the end of the day, he is the judge. I am happy to be his servant and to do as his son instructed. I am very happy to be among his people. If you are not then why are you hanging around only to bad mouth the people you have abandoned? Go in peace and have a happy life...go and find God wherever his is, if you believe he exists elsewhere.

The only reason I can see why people do what you are doing is to prove something to themselves. If you are right...then what? But what if you are wrong? Will you get a second chance to make things right? Or is this the time we choose our position? There are only sheep and goats in this world. To God, we are one or the other.

Let's all hope we make the right choice, because in a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it appears.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Jehovah's Witnesses know Jesus did not say "I am going, therefore disciple the nations" and that he did say "Go! Make disciples of the nations". I asked "how do you know?" And they said "apostate!" "trouble maker!" "Vilifyer!" I think my husband is a genius or pretty close. I think I am smart but he is ten times smarter than me. For an hour I was feeling so bad because their words are so mean I asked him if he knew what vilify meant. And he didn't exactly know.

Excuse my interjection, but "genius" quality intellect is hardly necessary to understand the the context or meaning of "vilify" in this instance. It's just not. :)

Anywho...

To vilify Jehovah God is to sin against the Holy Spirit. QUESTION ALERT! Isn't it? Is vilifying Jehovah God sinning against the Holy Spirit? So they have said it is what I have done. There is no forgiveness for it. I might as well just go kill myself.
Two things:

1) I can see how folks like yourself might interpret willful "sin" as an affront to the Holy Spirit. Only you may best quantify/qualify what constitutes a "sin" within your belief systems.

I know this much: humans as a species are flawed, and quite prone to error. Often. If I have any inkling as to what "sin" may be, a large measure is attributable to a willful nature and actions to PURPOSEFULLY "vilify" "god". IE, when something "bad" or unexplained loved ones, it IS human nature to experience anger and...if you believe in a "god", to shout aloud and demand some answer as to "why?". No sin in that feeling, unless you REALLY expect an audible answer.

2) No cause to commit suicide at all, simply because you may not "receive" the "answer" you demand or expect. That is hardly any compelling rational motivation. AS many believers will share and tell you...sometimes...the "answer" (often unsaid or silent) is "NO". That's it. "No".

But "no" in any singular example ever suggests that even at the age of 95 or more, that you have exhausted your capacity to share wisdom amongst those that seek it for direction or decision-making. You never know, it may even be that your last gasp my be imparted to the singular person that may change the entire world.

Do whatever you faith asks or demands of you, but I suggest that your final act not be of some self-serving act in denying others of an emerging desire to attain their own destiny.
 

Shak34

Active Member
How many people will? Apostates count on the fact that people are lazy and will believe what they see in print, regardless of whether it is in context or not. It is human nature.

You are free to believe whatever your heart desires. That is the point of the whole exercise. God has a people who are fulfilling Jesus command to peach about the kingdom earth wide before the end comes. I can't see anyone else doing that on a global scale...can you? (Matt 24:14; 10:11-15; 28:19, 20)

I don't think you are purposely deceiving, but I do believe that you yourself have been deceived by others. If people can be turned away from the son of God through clever propaganda, what makes you think you are immune to it? (John 15:19, 20)

As you said, people are free to look up the citations for themselves....but how are they going to do that? It isn't "more of the article" that is necessary...it is the whole article, with everything written presented intact. If it is a two part article, then it is necessary to read both parts. I have seen things fudged before to present us in a bad light. You can believe it if you wish. That is your choice to make.

If what you promote is not the truth but a twisted version of it presented to you by someone else, even if you think it is correct, you are still supporting slander.

Did Eve believe that the devil was slandering God by suggesting that he was lying and had bad motives in telling them that the TKGE was off limits? Or did she think satan was telling the truth and that God was everything the devil said he was? Our perceptions of things can be way off when something is 'marketed' the right way...leading to doubt. The devil is a master of deception. How does it work? You demonize the other fellows 'product' and tell people how bad it is for them and then tell them how good your product is so that they will throw out the opposition's product and buy yours. Advertisers have used this tactic to sell stuff for decades.

I can take anything out of context and make it sound like the opposite of what it stated. Satan has the ability to make black look white and vice versa.

Jehovah is allowing us all to make our choices based on what we want to believe. At the end of the day, he is the judge. I am happy to be his servant and to do as his son instructed. I am very happy to be among his people. If you are not then why are you hanging around only to bad mouth the people you have abandoned? Go in peace and have a happy life...go and find God wherever his is, if you believe he exists elsewhere.

The only reason I can see why people do what you are doing is to prove something to themselves. If you are right...then what? But what if you are wrong? Will you get a second chance to make things right? Or is this the time we choose our position? There are only sheep and goats in this world. To God, we are one or the other.

Let's all hope we make the right choice, because in a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it appears.


Wow, that is insulting to people in general by saying they are to lazy to look things up.

Many people preach in different ways. I know from being raised as a witness that this can count as preaching time for you. Why not for other faiths as well.


You ask how are other people going to find the citations.

By going to JW.org like I did. Obviously not all of it was from that website because I do have literature from when I was attending and still continue to receive it.

So I slandered by default?

The definition of slander is:
slan·der
ˈslandər/
verb
gerund or present participle: slandering
make false and damaging statements about (someone).
"they were accused of slandering the head of state"
synonyms: defame (someone's character), blacken someone's name, tell lies about, speak ill/evil of, sully someone's reputation, libel, smear, cast aspersions on, spread scandal about, besmirch, tarnish, taint; More

I quoted what was written in the literature that is handed out freely. I did not change it or paraphrase it but quoted word for word sentences that have been published. According to the definition I do not see how I slandered. But is implying that am slanderer in fact making you one? Is that not defaming my character by saying that I am changing the context of those quotes to mislead people.


Since you brought it up, If you would only take my side into consideration, which you have said you won't (since you have stated that the only right side is the witness side), I did not abandon them years ago they in fact abandoned me. But that is neither here nor there, because I have found that your path is not my path. I am glad that you are perfectly happy as a witness, so are my parents. What I don't like is how the former witnesses are looked down upon. Earlier you made a comment about not going out and committing suicide because someone stepped on your toes and I found that to be very disturbing. Obviously, you know more than you are letting on. Since the loss of family that happens when people leave the religion (shunning) has caused many to go into depression and commit suicide. I'm not saying the the organization was the sole cause of it the but they have played their part in negatively affecting many lives. I think it is time to get real and quit putting the organization on a pedestal. You say that they are imperfect but then turn around and say that anything that is said in the negative about them is a lie. You cannot have it both ways. If they are imperfect then you have to admit that some of the negative is also true.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Wow, that is insulting to people in general by saying they are to lazy to look things up.
People in general, if they are honest will not think it is insulting, just truthful. They don't have the time or the inclination to read lengthy articles. If you just post a line out of context, most people will take it at face value. That is what humans do. If it fits what they want to believe, they won't check it out.

Many people preach in different ways. I know from being raised as a witness that this can count as preaching time for you. Why not for other faiths as well.
"Many people" do not have one single message about God's kingdom that is preached by one united brotherhood in every nation on earth. (Matt 24:14) They don't go door to door like Jesus and the apostles did, searching for those who are spiritually lost. (Matt 10:11-15) "Many people" have no idea what God's kingdom is or what it will do, so how can they preach about it? :confused:

Jehovah's Witnesses have been doing this work continuously now for over 100 years. The Watchtower has not missed a printing in all that time. Almost 46,000,000 copies are printed every month in 213 languages. There are only 8,000,00 JW's in the world, so a lot of people are reading our magazines.

This is a relatively new avenue for preaching the good news. Since many are not at home when we call, the internet has proven to be a place where spiritual discussion is encouraged at times when it is convenient for them. It doesn't replace the method we have always used. Not everyone has the internet. Not everyone has a computer or even electricity.

jw.org has proven to be more successful in reaching people with the good news than anyone ever imagined.

You ask how are other people going to find the citations.

By going to JW.org like I did. Obviously not all of it was from that website because I do have literature from when I was attending and still continue to receive it.
jw.org only has magazine articles dating back to 2008.

So let me just post a larger portion of the first citation you mentioned from a 1986 WT.....I'll highlight the scriptures and the portion you quoted. Please take note of the scriptures used and how the brothers have incorporated the sentence you targeted. (in red)

"The apostle Paul warned fellow Christian elders: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:30) If we keep listening to subtle arguments and specious reasoning, “twisted things” can sound as though they were straight. The longer Eve looked at the forbidden fruit and listened to the twisted reasoning of the Devil, the more she was convinced that he was right. Paul warned: “Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8) The apostle also indicated that “by smooth talk and complimentary speech [apostates] seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (Romans 16:17, 18; compare 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.) Of course, the fact that a few are drawn away by that kind of propaganda does not mean that we have to follow them. Nevertheless, we need to be continually alert.
16 The Devil’s tactics have not changed since Eden. He uses subtle questioning and an appeal to self-interest. Peter wrote: “There will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.” (2 Peter 2:1-3) Something counterfeit is designed to look or sound genuine. At 2 Timothy 2:14-19, Paul stressed the importance of using Jehovah’s Word to set matters straight but warned of the need to avoid apostates, whose ‘empty speeches violate what is holy,’ for, said he, “their word will spread like gangrene.”
17 A fitting analogy indeed! Like gangrene, apostate reasoning is nothing but quick-spreading spiritual death. And since the members of the congregation are like one body, there is a danger that others may be infected. If the one spreading apostate teachings cannot be restored to spiritual health by loving but firm application of the balm of God’s Word, amputation of this member (disfellowshipping) may be the only alternative for the protection of other members of the body. (Compare Titus 1:10, 11.) Do not be infected by deadly gangrene of a spiritual kind! Keep in good spiritual health by avoiding the contamination of apostate thinking. Heed the sound advice at 2 Peter 3:17, 18: “You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness. No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”


So how does that single sentence look when placed in context with the scriptures?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I quoted what was written in the literature that is handed out freely. I did not change it or paraphrase it but quoted word for word sentences that have been published. According to the definition I do not see how I slandered. But is implying that am slanderer in fact making you one? Is that not defaming my character by saying that I am changing the context of those quotes to mislead people.
What you quoted was out of context and designed to mislead.

I didn't say you slandered. I said if you quote slanderers and support what they say, you become one as well. You and I both know where you got your quotes from....it wasn't from jw.org.

Since you brought it up, If you would only take my side into consideration, which you have said you won't (since you have stated that the only right side is the witness side), I did not abandon them years ago they in fact abandoned me.
You and I both know that it doesn't work like that. No one is abandoned by Jehovah's Witnesses who hasn't first abandoned God's truth. Were you ever baptized?

I have found that your path is not my path. I am glad that you are perfectly happy as a witness, so are my parents. What I don't like is how the former witnesses are looked down upon.
It is not former Witnesses that are looked down upon...they are encouraged as much as we can do so. Weakness is a whole lot different to wickedness. What is looked down upon is apostates who want to dispute and argue that their own thoughts are right and that the gb is wrong. Contentions in the congregation are not tolerated. If there are disputes, they can be brought to the attention of the brothers who will patiently hear them and answer from the scriptures.
What they will not do is encourage arguments and false reasoning, no matter how good it might sound to the individual. We have one truth...we all believe one way. There is no more room for individual ideas now than there was back in the first century.
In the Revelation, Jesus addressed the congregations, not individuals.

Earlier you made a comment about not going out and committing suicide because someone stepped on your toes and I found that to be very disturbing. Obviously, you know more than you are letting on.
I just love it when people tell me what I believe and what I know. I was speaking metaphorically. The suicide I referred to was spiritual.
Frankly, I am appalled at what you don't know. I am disturbed at how quickly some people can be 'shaken from their reason', as Paul said. How easy was it for the devil to to fool Eve? Who is falling for the same tactic? Seeds of doubt is all it takes.

Since the loss of family that happens when people leave the religion (shunning) has caused many to go into depression and commit suicide. I'm not saying the the organization was the sole cause of it the but they have played their part in negatively affecting many lives.
Discipline is supposed to cause a measure of pain. That is the whole reason why it works. Those who learn by it are grateful that Jehovah cared enough to administer it. (Psalm 141:5)

“My son, do not belittle [the] discipline from Jehovah, neither give out when you are corrected by him;  for whom Jehovah loves he disciplines; in fact, he scourges every one whom he receives as a son (Heb 12:5, 6)

"True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous; yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness" (Heb 12:11)

What does "scourging" bring to mind? A slap on the wrist? Discipline that is correctly administered can even be "grievous", so let's get the right attitude here....it is for training, not persecuting.

I think it is time to get real and quit putting the organization on a pedestal.
Either that or its time to take a reality check yourself. The organization is not on a pedestal. It is shepherding God's people in the time of the end, and preparing us for the greatest tribulation in the history of the world. Where will apostates be when that happens? (Matt 24:21, 36-39)

You say that they are imperfect but then turn around and say that anything that is said in the negative about them is a lie.
You said that, not me.

You cannot have it both ways. If they are imperfect then you have to admit that some of the negative is also true.
Have they made mistakes?...who hasn't? Are you perfect? Do you make mistakes? Were Jesus' apostles perfect? They were flawed humans just like we all are. The gb are our brothers, not our masters.

The only perfect man who ever died faithful was Jesus Christ. Imperfect men can also die faithful. They can live a life dedicated to God's service without ever being perfect and in spite of their shortcomings. What is it that you are expecting of them? :shrug:
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
According to Reasoning from the Scriptures:
"Apostasy is abandoning or deserting the worship and service of God, actually a rebellion against Jehovah God. Some apostates profess to know and serve God but reject teachings or requirements set out in in his word. Others claim to believe the bible but reject Jehovah's organization."

The next page states that: "They may claim to serve God but reject his representatives, his visible organization."

So that does state that anyone who leaves is an apostate. Since people who leave reject the organization as being appointed by Jehovah, whether or not they speak out against it.

We take our understanding of what it means to be an apostate from the scriptures. Here you will notice that for each question about apostates, there is a scriptural answer which is what is used for the entire subject in our Reasoning book:

Definition: Apostasy is abandoning or deserting the worship and service of God, actually a rebellion against Jehovah God. Some apostates profess to know and serve God but reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible but reject Jehovah’s organization.

Should we expect that apostates will arise within the Christian congregation?
1*Tim. 4:1: “The inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons.”

2*Thess. 2:3: “Let no one seduce you in any manner, because [the day of Jehovah] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.”


Some identifying marks of apostates—


They seek to make others their followers, thus causing sectarian divisions
Acts 20:30: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”

2*Pet. 2:1,*3: “There will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them .*.*. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.”

They may profess to believe in Christ but treat lightly the preaching and teaching work he assigned to his followers
Luke 6:46: “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?”
Matt. 28:19,*20: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them .*.*. teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.”
Matt. 24:14: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

They may claim to serve God but reject his representatives, his visible organization
Jude 8,*11: “These men, too, indulging in dreams, are defiling the flesh and disregarding lordship and speaking abusively of glorious ones. Too bad for them, because they .*.*. have perished in the rebellious talk of Korah!”

Num. 16:1-3, 11, 19-21: “Korah .*.*. proceeded to get up, together with .*.*. two hundred and fifty men of the sons of Israel, chieftains of the assembly .*.*. So they congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: ‘That is enough of you, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst. Why, then, should you lift yourselves up above the congregation of Jehovah?’*.*.*. [Moses said:] ‘You and all your assembly who are gathering together are against Jehovah. As for Aaron, what is he that you men should murmur against him?’ When Korah got all the assembly together against them at the entrance of the tent of meeting, then Jehovah’s glory appeared to all the assembly. Jehovah now spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying: ‘Separate yourselves from the midst of this assembly, that I may exterminate them in an instant.’”


Not only do they abandon the true faith but they then “beat” their former associates, using public criticism and other methods to hinder their work; the efforts of such apostates are devoted to tearing down, not building up

Matt. 24:45-51: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? .*.*. But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.”

2*Tim. 2:16-18: “Shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.”

Would faithful Christians welcome apostates into their presence, either personally or by reading their literature?
2*John 9,*10: “Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. .*.*. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.”

Rom. 16:17,*18: “I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. .*.*. By smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones.”

Would any serious harm come from satisfying one’s curiosity about the thinking of apostates?
Prov. 11:9: “By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin.”
Isa. 32:6: “The senseless one himself will speak mere senselessness, and his very heart will work at what is hurtful, to work at apostasy and to speak against Jehovah what is wayward, to cause the soul of the hungry one to go empty, and he causes even the thirsty one to go without drink itself.” (Compare Isaiah 65:13,*14.)

How serious is apostasy?
2*Pet. 2:1: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.”

Job 13:16: “Before him [God] no apostate will come in.”

Heb. 6:4-6: “It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away [“if they then commit apostasy,” RS], to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.”


We dont decide who or what defines an apostate... the scriptures do. And the reasoning book only provides a definition and the scriptures, they dont need to add further dialogue to it because the scriptures are clear on this matter.

I must say though, its a very sad state to fall into if someone does fall into such thinking... I would hope they are able to see how far they've fallen before its too late for them. :(
 
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Shak34

Active Member
"Many people" do not have one single message about God's kingdom that is preached by one united brotherhood in every nation on earth. (Matt 24:14) They don't go door to door like Jesus and the apostles did, searching for those who are spiritually lost. (Matt 10:11-15) "Many people" have no idea what God's kingdom is or what it will do, so how can they preach about it? :confused:

Jehovah's Witnesses have been doing this work continuously now for over 100 years. The Watchtower has not missed a printing in all that time. Almost 46,000,000 copies are printed every month in 213 languages. There are only 8,000,00 JW's in the world, so a lot of people are reading our magazines.

This is a relatively new avenue for preaching the good news. Since many are not at home when we call, the internet has proven to be a place where spiritual discussion is encouraged at times when it is convenient for them. It doesn't replace the method we have always used. Not everyone has the internet. Not everyone has a computer or even electricity.

jw.org has proven to be more successful in reaching people with the good news than anyone ever imagined.

This is one of those conversations that just goes in a circle and never really going anywhere. As I said before, there are many different ways people can preach. Jesus didn't always preach in or at a house. How does every different religious sect not have one single message about God's kingdom with in their own sect? Many religious sects believe that they know what God's kingdom is and what it will do, it is just different from your religious sect. What it comes down to is a choice on which one the person wants to believe is the truth. As I said before my path is not the same as yours. Sorry, but circling this drain just gets old.

jw.org only has magazine articles dating back to 2008.

As I said before, I didn't get everything from the website because I have my own literature from growing up as a witness. The Watchtower Online Library has literature from 2000 to 2014, including Watchtower and Awake Magazines. Is that not one of your websites?

So let me just post a larger portion of the first citation you mentioned from a 1986 WT.....I'll highlight the scriptures and the portion you quoted. Please take note of the scriptures used and how the brothers have incorporated the sentence you targeted. (in red)

"The apostle Paul warned fellow Christian elders: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:30) If we keep listening to subtle arguments and specious reasoning, “twisted things” can sound as though they were straight. The longer Eve looked at the forbidden fruit and listened to the twisted reasoning of the Devil, the more she was convinced that he was right. Paul warned: “Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8) The apostle also indicated that “by smooth talk and complimentary speech [apostates] seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (Romans 16:17, 18; compare 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.) Of course, the fact that a few are drawn away by that kind of propaganda does not mean that we have to follow them. Nevertheless, we need to be continually alert.
16 The Devil’s tactics have not changed since Eden. He uses subtle questioning and an appeal to self-interest. Peter wrote: “There will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.” (2 Peter 2:1-3) Something counterfeit is designed to look or sound genuine. At 2 Timothy 2:14-19, Paul stressed the importance of using Jehovah’s Word to set matters straight but warned of the need to avoid apostates, whose ‘empty speeches violate what is holy,’ for, said he, “their word will spread like gangrene.”
17 A fitting analogy indeed! Like gangrene, apostate reasoning is nothing but quick-spreading spiritual death. And since the members of the congregation are like one body, there is a danger that others may be infected. If the one spreading apostate teachings cannot be restored to spiritual health by loving but firm application of the balm of God’s Word, amputation of this member (disfellowshipping) may be the only alternative for the protection of other members of the body. (Compare Titus 1:10, 11.) Do not be infected by deadly gangrene of a spiritual kind! Keep in good spiritual health by avoiding the contamination of apostate thinking. Heed the sound advice at 2 Peter 3:17, 18: “You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness. No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”


So how does that single sentence look when placed in context with the scriptures?

Okay so please tell me how I took that out of context? What I quoted is comparing apostate reasoning, their very intellect, to a to a contagious disease that will kill a person spiritually. And the paragraph goes on to state that if you can't correct it you must get rid of it by disfellowshiping (if necessary) it so that it can be avoid. It is still going above and beyond to paint people who have a different opinion or are questioning something in a very bad light.
 
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Shak34

Active Member
What you quoted was out of context and designed to mislead.

I didn't say you slandered. I said if you quote slanderers and support what they say, you become one as well.

Again you just called me a slander because I support that those quotes are in my opinion horribly judgmental and make witnesses hate even their own family (ones that are considered apostates).

You and I both know where you got your quotes from....it wasn't from jw.org.

Again I said that I didn't get everything from the org because I have witness literature from my years of attending. Now who is nit picking and taking things out of the context to make someone look bad.


You and I both know that it doesn't work like that. No one is abandoned by Jehovah's Witnesses who hasn't first abandoned God's truth. Were you ever baptized?

I never claimed to be baptized, in fact on another thread I gave the story as to why I wasn't. Which is the reason why for years I felt abandon by the organization.

It is not former Witnesses that are looked down upon...they are encouraged as much as we can do so.

You and I both know it doesn't work that way.


Weakness is a whole lot different to wickedness. What is looked down upon is apostates who want to dispute and argue that their own thoughts are right and that the gb is wrong.

I hate to break to ya sweetie, but the only reason to leave what you believed in is because you stopped believing it. So of course they are going to think that the GB is wrong.

I just love it when people tell me what I believe and what I know. I was speaking metaphorically. The suicide I referred to was spiritual.
If someone steps on my toe, I will not respond by going out and committing suicide. Even if someone beat me up, I would not still end my life on account of what another misguided human has done to me. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay says Jehovah". If we believe that, we will wait on him to fix what is wrong....unless of course our injustice is more important to God than the serious stuff that is going on in many nations at present. Gaining some perspective on the importance of our own issues in the scheme of things, may be a good idea.

I don't see any metaphoric resemblances here. IMO

Metaphor–noun 1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our god.”

2. something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.

Synonyms = allegorical, denotative, descriptive, emblematic, illustrative, metaphoric, representative, symbolic, tropological


Frankly, I am appalled at what you don't know.

:eek:

Discipline is supposed to cause a measure of pain. That is the whole reason why it works. Those who learn by it are grateful that Jehovah cared enough to administer it. (Psalm 141:5)

“My son, do not belittle [the] discipline from Jehovah, neither give out when you are corrected by him;  for whom Jehovah loves he disciplines; in fact, he scourges every one whom he receives as a son.” (Heb 12:5, 6)

"True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous; yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness" (Heb 12:11)

What does "scourging" bring to mind? A slap on the wrist? Discipline that is correctly administered can even be "grievous", so let's get the right attitude here....it is for training, not persecuting.

The down fall of the punishment that the witnesses give out is that it tends to have a ripple effect. If you not been punished or closely acquainted with those who have you will never understand.

Either that or its time to take a reality check yourself. The organization is not on a pedestal. It is shepherding God's people in the time of the end, and preparing us for the greatest tribulation in the history of the world. Where will apostates be when that happens? (Matt 24:21, 36-39)

Probably sit down with a nice drink watching the down fall of the witnesses. :D That was a joke, probably poorly made, but still a joke.

You said that, not me.

All the garbage about JW's posted on the net is just that. Disgruntled people with an axe to grind, making allegations based on one side of a very biased story. Funny how people can make serious judgments about things without the whole story. What if judges in court did that? We will be judged on the basis of how we judge others.

Those who have left us have nowhere to go and nothing to say except to spew the poison that is designed to make them look like innocent victims of those big bad JW's.

To me this looks I you are implying that what they are saying is a lie and that it is the witnesses that are innocent. If that is not what you meant then why is it so hard to say that yea some of the ex-witnesses could have a reason for being upset. Some could have been wrongly treated. possibly even unjustly punished.

Have they made mistakes?...who hasn't? Are you perfect? Do you make mistakes?

I have never claimed to be perfect. When I make mistakes I try to learn from them to the best of my ability.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you just post a line out of context, most people will take it at face value. That is what humans do. If it fits what they want to believe, they won't check it out........What you quoted was out of context and designed to mislead.

"The apostle Paul warned fellow Christian elders: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:30) If we keep listening to subtle arguments and specious reasoning, “twisted things” can sound as though they were straight. The longer Eve looked at the forbidden fruit and listened to the twisted reasoning of the Devil, the more she was convinced that he was right. Paul warned: “Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8) The apostle also indicated that “by smooth talk and complimentary speech [apostates] seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (Romans 16:17, 18; compare 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.) Of course, the fact that a few are drawn away by that kind of propaganda does not mean that we have to follow them. Nevertheless, we need to be continually alert.
16 The Devil’s tactics have not changed since Eden. He uses subtle questioning and an appeal to self-interest. [what do most Watchtower articles start with?]Peter wrote: “There will also be false teachers among you. [[B]but even though Jesus warned the slave you trust to feed you might go bad it isn't about them[/I]]These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . Also, with covetousness [let's talk about the covetousness of the Jehovah's Witnesses - they want every soul to be in subjection to THEIR governing body not to God except that they will say subjection to the GB is the same as subjection to Jehovah] they will exploit you with counterfeit words.”[/B] [THIS is what I am trying TO TELL YOU!] (2 Peter 2:1-3) Something counterfeit is designed to look or sound genuine. [right! I was fooled by a counterfeit slave for almost 20 years] At 2 Timothy 2:14-19, Paul stressed the importance of using Jehovah’s Word to set matters straight [not their OPINION of God's Word for that is what the GB have and you know it because sometimes they change the meaning of scripture and call it "new Light"}but warned of the need to avoid apostates, whose ‘empty speeches violate what is holy,’ for, said he, “their word will spread like gangrene.”
17 A fitting analogy indeed! Like gangrene, apostate reasoning is nothing but quick-spreading spiritual death. [of course it is not possible Russtle was the apostate,; is it?] And since the members of the congregation are like one body, there is a danger that others may be infected. If the one spreading apostate teachings cannot be restored to spiritual health by loving but firm application of the balm of God’s Word, amputation of this member (disfellowshipping) may be the only alternative for the protection of other members of the body. (Compare Titus 1:10, 11.) Do not be infected by deadly gangrene of a spiritual kind! Keep in good spiritual health by avoiding the contamination of [WRONG] thinking. Heed the sound advice at 2 Peter 3:17, 18: “You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness.

Please, please, please, please, please hear what you are saying and take it to YOUR heart.

Jehovah's Witnesses have been doing this work continuously now for over 100 years. The Watchtower has not missed a printing in all that time. Almost 46,000,000 copies are printed every month in 213 languages. There are only 8,000,00 JW's in the world, so a lot of people are reading our magazines.
"By their use of many words they imagine they will get hearing from Jehovah" Matthew 6:5-8 ( I realize the scripture is about prayer to God but how much different is prayer to God than words about God?)
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Excuse my interjection, but "genius" quality intellect is hardly necessary to understand the the context or meaning of "vilify" in this instance. It's just not. :)
LOL Yes! I did not ask in context. And who uses that word anyway? It means to put another soul down. He had the basic meaning right. Even if anyone was in the habit of putting souls down I think they would not admit it. Do you?

Two things:

1) I can see how folks like yourself might interpret willful "sin" as an affront to the Holy Spirit.
Willful sin is not an affront to the Holy Spirit. To be putting Jehovah down (which is what vilify means) is sinning aginst the Holy Spirit.

I know this much: humans as a species are flawed, and quite prone to error. Often. If I have any inkling as to what "sin" may be, a large measure is attributable to a willful nature and actions to PURPOSEFULLY "vilify" "god". IE, when something "bad" or unexplained loved ones, it IS human nature to experience anger and...if you believe in a "god", to shout aloud and demand some answer as to "why?". No sin in that feeling, unless you REALLY expect an audible answer.

2) No cause to commit suicide at all, simply because you may not "receive" the "answer" you demand or expect. That is hardly any compelling rational motivation. AS many believers will share and tell you...sometimes...the "answer" (often unsaid or silent) is "NO". That's it. "No".
I meant according to their doctrine. If they are right then my best bet is to exit this life. It's just logic. It is not an opinion.

But "no" in any singular example ever suggests that even at the age of 95 or more, that you have exhausted your capacity to share wisdom amongst those that seek it for direction or decision-making. You never know, it may even be that your last gasp my be imparted to the singular person that may change the entire world.
Thank you for this sentiment. I feel rosy inside!
Do whatever you faith asks or demands of you, but I suggest that your final act
Right. Killing myself is not in the plan.
not be of some self-serving act in denying others of an emerging desire to attain their own destiny
This is interesting in a philosophical way, but I don't know what it means. What does it mean please?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think slander can be done only against a person. I think it can't be slander if it is words contrary to other words. If slander can be against things such as words of scripture then I have slandered JW doctrine. All my posts are counter arguments against the TEACHINGS of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witneses HAVE NOT ANSWERED ONE OF THEM. Instead they have attacked my person, which is against forum rules. :shrug: I can not guess why they can throw personal insults but no one else can.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
LOL Yes! I did not ask in context. And who uses that word anyway? It means to put another soul down. He had the basic meaning right. Even if anyone was in the habit of putting souls down I think they would not admit it. Do you?

Yep.

Willful sin is not an affront to the Holy Spirit. To be putting Jehovah down (which is what vilify means) is sinning aginst the Holy Spirit.
OK. Now we are clear on that distinction?

{quote}]I meant according to their doctrine. If they are right then my best bet is to exit this life. It's just logic. It is not an opinion. [/quote]

It's not my usual course of advice to advise one way or the other.

Thank you for this sentiment. I feel rosy inside!
Right. Killing myself is not in the plan.
This is interesting in a philosophical way, but I don't know what it means. What does it mean please?
It means, that only you are left to decide what is "meaningful" to you as a mortal in the here and now. If you seek another inspiration to "exist", be it supernatural or not, that too is your call.

You can "suicide" yourself, or contribute your own sense of a "meaningful" existence.

In either event, the "cosmos" just doesn't care. It's just your call now.

Understand?
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Yep.

OK. Now we are clear on that distinction?

I meant according to their doctrine. If they are right then my best bet is to exit this life. It's just logic. It is not an opinion.
It's not my usual course of advice to advise one way or the other.

It means, that only you are left to decide what is "meaningful" to you as a mortal in the here and now. If you seek another inspiration to "exist", be it supernatural or not, that too is your call.

You can "suicide" yourself, or contribute your own sense of a "meaningful" existence.

In either event, the "cosmos" just doesn't care. It's just your call now.

Understand?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Again you just called me a slander because I support that those quotes are in my opinion horribly judgmental and make witnesses hate even their own family (ones that are considered apostates).

We hate what Jehovah hates. He doesn't hate anyone personally, but hates what they do if it goes contrary to his will.
He gives adequate time and warning to everyone to separate themselves from the wrongdoing, because he will eventually have to wipe out all wickedness and those who cling to it. No one ever hates their own children, but they can love Jehovah more and pray that an erring family member comes to realize their mistake.

Think back to the parable of the Prodigal son. (Luke 15:11-24) This is the kind of Father Jehovah is. He did not force the son to stay but gave him his share of the inheritance and let him go. He did not try to stop him or chase after him. The son went and lived a debauched life and as soon as his inheritance ran out, so did his friends. Hard times hit the land.
He was homeless and broke and alone, envying the pigs their carob pods. He realized what he'd thrown away and well off his father's laborers were. Humbly he decided to return home to his father...not as a son but as merely a hired worker.
The father saw him "afar off" and ran to meet him. The son had to take the first steps to return home to his father....so do those who err and are disfellowshipped from the congregation. We always hope for the best, that they too will 'come to their senses' and come back to us with lessons learned and a new resolve to live life as God has instructed. The Prodigal son didn't like his life when things were good, but not until he left that life and experienced great difficulty, did he appreciate what he had lost.

Again I said that I didn't get everything from the org because I have witness literature from my years of attending. Now who is nit picking and taking things out of the context to make someone look bad.
I believe that you said people were able to access these articles from jw.org. I was simply letting you know that not everyone can access these old articles to check the veracity of the claims posted on the net. Taking one line out of context is an old trick. It's a bit like a "yes or no" answer by a clever lawyer in court. Anti-JW sites are full of these. Twisted half truths can be more damning that the whole truth.

I never claimed to be baptized, in fact on another thread I gave the story as to why I wasn't. Which is the reason why for years I felt abandon by the organization.
I haven't read your post sorry, so that makes no sense to me. If you were never baptized, why would you feel abandoned by the organization? How can you feel abandoned if you actually jumped ship first? We don't chase after people who make their decision to leave the congregation, especially if they decide to bad mouth former associates and congregation elders etc. What is the point? They will believe whatever they want.

Jem said:
It is not former Witnesses that are looked down upon...they are encouraged as much as we can do so.
You and I both know it doesn't work that way.
I have been a Witness for over 40 years....I can tell you, it is that way. We visit and try to encourage weaker ones to come back to the meetings. But at the end of the day, it is their life to with as they choose. We cannot force them. But we can pray for them.

I hate to break to ya sweetie, but the only reason to leave what you believed in is because you stopped believing it. So of course they are going to think that the GB is wrong.
I am probably old enough to be your mother. You are free to disbelieve whoever and whatever you wish. No one is standing over anyone with a big stick making them believe anything. Your choices are your choices for whatever reasons.

The down fall of the punishment that the witnesses give out is that it tends to have a ripple effect. If you not been punished or closely acquainted with those who have you will never understand.
I am well acquainted with disfellowshipping, having had three family members disciplined this way. Two have returned to the congregation, grateful for the wake up call, after experiencing how cold and uncaring and shallow the world really is. One is making moves to come back after making one stupid mistake after another. Her life is a mess and she has no one out there who gives a damn. She has no money and no job and is in ill health. She now realizes how good life was before.
She knows that her family cares and wants to come home. I have seen Jehovah work on humble hearts...don't tell me I don't know. :sad:

Probably sit down with a nice drink watching the down fall of the witnesses. That was a joke, probably poorly made, but still a joke.
You may not think it's so funny one day. :(

To me this looks I you are implying that what they are saying is a lie and that it is the witnesses that are innocent. If that is not what you meant then why is it so hard to say that yea some of the ex-witnesses could have a reason for being upset. Some could have been wrongly treated. possibly even unjustly punished.
How can we ever say that imperfect humans are never wrong? What I said was that those who have a humble view of their own importance will not go off in a huff because a human treated them badly. Those who really know and trust God will wait on him to fix the things that need fixing...in his own time and in his own way. (Micah 7:7)
I have had personal experience with this too. Jehovah did not act straight away but when he did, it was the right time to do so. Those who bail at the first sign of trouble miss out on seeing how things can be resolved with benefit to all.

I have never claimed to be perfect. When I make mistakes I try to learn from them to the best of my ability.
Shouldn't we all? :yes:
 

Shak34

Active Member
I believe that you said people were able to access these articles from jw.org. I was simply letting you know that not everyone can access these old articles to check the veracity of the claims posted on the net. Taking one line out of context is an old trick. It's a bit like a "yes or no" answer by a clever lawyer in court. Anti-JW sites are full of these. Twisted half truths can be more damning that the whole truth.

This is what I said: "By going to JW.org like I did. Obviously not all of it was from that website because I do have literature from when I was attending and still continue to receive it." One of those articles is on the website that can be verified that it does in fact call apostates mentally diseased and also compares them to criminals saying that they make false words, like criminals who make false documents look real.

Have you ever gone to one of these websites to truly know what they say? (This is just a question, please don't bite my head off)

I haven't read your post sorry, so that makes no sense to me. If you were never baptized, why would you feel abandoned by the organization? How can you feel abandoned if you actually jumped ship first? We don't chase after people who make their decision to leave the congregation, especially if they decide to bad mouth former associates and congregation elders etc. What is the point? They will believe whatever they want.

Here is my story:I was raised a Jehovah Witness but sort of fell away when I was told that I didn't have enough hours in service to get baptized (about 13 years old). Now did I actually jump ship first? I even here recently had some witnesses come over and started a sort of study. I ask how many hours do I need to get baptized and they said they couldn't tell me. How can I get baptized if I don't know what is required? Who did I bad mouth? What former associates and elders? I don't remember saying anyone in particular.



I have been a Witness for over 40 years....I can tell you, it is that way. We visit and try to encourage weaker ones to come back to the meetings. But at the end of the day, it is their life to with as they choose. We cannot force them. But we can pray for them.

This makes me think of the parable of the lost sheep. (Luke 15: 1-7) Did you even try to find my story before you assumed that I jumped ship? This is only, I think, my 41st post it wouldn't have been that hard to find. Did you even try to find out how deep the hole is so you could try and help a lost sheep get to safety.

I am probably old enough to be your mother. You are free to disbelieve whoever and whatever you wish. No one is standing over anyone with a big stick making them believe anything. Your choices are your choices for whatever reasons.

You know that every congregation differs. Some have amazing people and others not so much. Unfortunately, I moved from an amazing one to a pretty nasty one. No one went out of their way to encourage anyone who was falling way. Maybe it is just different in the States than in your neck of the woods.

I am well acquainted with disfellowshipping, having had three family members disciplined this way. Two have returned to the congregation, grateful for the wake up call, after experiencing how cold and uncaring and shallow the world really is. One is making moves to come back after making one stupid mistake after another. Her life is a mess and she has no one out there who gives a damn. She has no money and no job and is in ill health. She now realizes how good life was before.
She knows that her family cares and wants to come home. I have seen Jehovah work on humble hearts...don't tell me I don't know. :sad:

I am sorry you have had family that you are unable to socialize with anymore. I guess I should have been more clear. The ripple effect I was referring to was when a parent gets disfellowshiped and their children get punished for it. (I know sins of the father passed down on generations and all that) I'm just happy that my parents never let the children of disfellowshiped parents go through what their children went through.

I never told you what you did or didn't know. I said if you didn't know, because I don't know you. I have no idea why you have to be so snarky. The first time I ever posted a comment on this forum you and another witness came out with you teeth and claws at the ready. You called me a slanderer then too. All I was doing was asking the opinion of a witness because I felt that it might be concerning and could add fuel to the fire for people against witnesses. Maybe I came across wrong but you could have asked for clarification before you jumped down my throat. When witnesses won't answer your questions there is always someone that will.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We hate what Jehovah hates. He doesn't hate anyone personally, but hates what they do if it goes contrary to his will.
He gives adequate time and warning to everyone to separate themselves from the wrongdoing, because he will eventually have to wipe out all wickedness and those who cling to it. No one ever hates their own children, but they can love Jehovah more and pray that an erring family member comes to realize their mistake.

It is possible, but nobody in this life will ever know, that what you believe was written in scripture "Jehovah hates" actually says "hates Jehovah" and might have been one thing Jesus came to fix but NO! YOU will NOT have it fixed. You won't even talk about it.

The father saw him "afar off" and ran to meet him. The son had to take the first steps to return home to his father....so do those who err and are disfellowshipped from the congregation. We always hope for the best, that they too will 'come to their senses' and come back to us with lessons learned and a new resolve to live life as God has instructed.
Quit touching the unclean thing and I will take you in says Jehovah. What is the unclean thing? I suppose you think it is The World. How does a person stop touching the world?

Twisted half truths can be more damning that the whole truth.
I have posted several times that "all scripture inspired by God" means all of it not each part of it. YOU have not been taught the whole truth. You have nothing to say about it. What you say is true (twisted half truths are damning) and because you want to believe those men who are taking scripture out of context THEY will make you fall.

I haven't read your post sorry, so that makes no sense to me. If you were never baptized, why would you feel abandoned by the organization?
Perhaps because it seems to be their intent to mislead the entire inhabited earth.

We don't chase after people who make their decision to leave the congregation, especially if they decide to bad mouth former associates and congregation elders etc.
We visit and try to encourage weaker ones to come back to the meetings.
You are being contrary. Do you leave them alone or do you visit them with reasonable persuasion? Nobody has visited me except on their regular yearly routes around town. And gracious me! I am not disfellowshiped. There are a lot of things I could be dfed for. Hm but I am a coward because I have not bothered the brothers saying "sometimes I smoke a cigarette". I say the F word too. YOU have not even TRIED to persuade me that I am wrong.

I am probably old enough to be your mother. You are free to disbelieve whoever and whatever you wish. No one is standing over anyone with a big stick making them believe anything. Your choices are your choices for whatever reasons.
The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are standing over the whole world with their stick. "Believe us because hating us is hating Jehovah".

You may not think it's so funny one day. :(
I think the poster saying "it is a joke" meant a bad joke not a funny one.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Think back to the parable of the Prodigal son. (Luke 15:11-24)
Think BACK?
This is the kind of Father Jehovah is.
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matthew 11:27
WHO has reveal the Father to you? Jesus says he will. Did Jesus reveal the kind of Father Jehovah is to you?

He did not force the son to stay but gave him his share of the inheritance and let him go. He did not try to stop him or chase after him. The son went and lived a debauched life and as soon as his inheritance ran out, so did his friends. Hard times hit the land.
He was homeless and broke and alone, envying the pigs their carob pods. He realized what he'd thrown away and well off his father's laborers were. Humbly he decided to return home to his father
"To his father" and to the organization is the same. True or false?

Actually I have hear apostates (oh! we are apostates of the organization) say the new name the governing body thought up for themselves is "mother". Is this true?

The father saw him "afar off" and ran to meet him. The son had to take the first steps to return home to his father....so do those who err and are disfellowshipped from the congregation. We always hope for the best, that they too will 'come to their senses' and come back to us with lessons learned and a new resolve to live life as God has instructed. The Prodigal son didn't like his life when things were good, but not until he left that life and experienced great difficulty, did he appreciate what he had lost.

I would like you to talk about how you equate the loving Jehovah to loving YOU. Why won't you?

I will tell you what the unclean thing is. It is the power of God in man's hands. So! It did apply, didn't it? DADDY please come get me! Or make them smarter please.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Too many words. The important question that needs answering is did Jesus reveal what kind of father God is to you or did someone else?
 
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