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Kerry said to be excommunicated

Pah

Pah

Uber all member
Kerry said to be excommunicated

Catholic World News

Los Angeles, Oct. 18 (CWNews.com) - A consultant to the Vatican has said Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has incurred the penalty of excommunication from the Catholic Church.

The consultant made his statement in a highly unusual letter to Marc Balestrieri, a Los Angeles canon lawyer who formally sued John Kerry in ecclesiastical court for heresy.

Balestrieri, who launched his case earlier this year by filing a heresy complaint in Kerry's home archdiocese of Boston, told EWTN's "World Over" program on Friday that he had received an unusual, indirect communication from the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith regarding the pro-abortion stance.

That communication provides a basis, he said, to declare that any Catholic politician who says he is "personally opposed to abortion, but supports a woman's right to choose," incurs automatic excommunication. It also provided a basis for Balestrieri to broaden his canonical actions and file additional complaints against four more pro-abortion Catholic politicians: Democrat Senators Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts and Tom Harkin of Iowa; Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine; and former New York Governor Mario Cuomo, a Democrat.

The current action could be significant as it could undercut the entire debate over denying Communion to pro-abortion politicians. An excommunicated Catholic may not receive any of the sacraments of the Church, including the Eucharist, marriage, and even Christian burial. The type of excommunication outlined in the new information is called latae sententiae, which means that it occurs automatically and does not require a formal pronouncement by any Church official.

Balestrieri said he went to Rome in late August to discuss his canonical case with experts, including an official of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Less than 10 days later, he received a letter from Father Basil Cole, a Dominican theologian and consultant to the congregation based in Washington, DC, who said he had been "delegated" by Father Augustine DiNoia, undersecretary of the congregation, to give an unofficial response to the question that Balestrieri had submitted.

"I went to Rome in person to submit two critical questions to the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith," said Balestrieri. "The first: Whether or not the Church's teaching condemning any direct abortion is a dogma of Divine and Catholic Faith, and if the denial and doubt of the same constitutes heresy. The second: Whether or not a denial of the Church's teaching condemning every right to abortion also constitutes heresy. Father Cole, an expert theologian who studied the matter carefully, responded in the affirmative on both counts."

Father Cole wrote, "If a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the Church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy envisioned by Can. 751 of the Code [of Canon Law]. Provided that the presumptions of knowledge of the law and penalty and imputability are not rebutted in the external forum, one is automatically excommunicated ...."

Balestrieri said the response was unusual in several respects: that a response was provided to a layman at the request of the undersecretary in only 11 days, that the response was in writing, decisively clarifying the matter, and that it was in far greater detail than a typical official reply. "Normally, only a bishop may request such clarification of doctrine from the CDF, such responses usually take a much longer time to be received, and they are rarely made public," he said.

He also said that the original canonical complaint of heresy against Kerry had received so much response from the public that the tribunal of the Archdiocese of Boston has been deluged with thousands of letters from ordinary Catholics who wish to add their names to the complaint. The head of the archdiocesan tribunal reportedly told him that the case had not been rejected and was "now in the hands of the archbishop," that is, Archbishop Sean O'Malley of Boston.

Balestrieri, a self-identified political independent, says that his actions come as a defender of the faith and Holy Eucharist from sacrilege and scandal, not as one focused on an electoral outcome. "Our victory can come as early as today: It would be for Sen. Kerry, who publicly calls himself a Catholic and yet in violation of Canon Law continues to receive Holy Communion, to repent of his grave sin and publicly recant his abortion advocacy."

The complete text of Father Cole's response as well as other details of the pending cases are available on the DeFide.com web site.
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I think it's time for the Catholic church to register as a foriegn agent, lose its tax status and possibly it's embassarial status. They threaten our democratic process.

-pah-
 
robtex

robtex

Veteran Member
Pah the tax status is a great idea. Lets face the Catholic church didn't get to be the empire that it has become without playing hardball in the political arena. Seperation of Church and state should be a requirement for tax free status.
 
linwood

linwood

Well-Known Member
Well.
I don`t know why but I am surprised.
Heresy?!!
Excommunication?!!

This is the 21st century..they`ve gotta get with the program.
lol.

It`s probably a good thing .
 
L

logos

Member
Ok, I think there needs to be a little bit of a clarification. Excommunication is being excluded from communion. In other words, being outside of the community of believers. Now, the Catholic Church aside, if someone professes a contrary belief that is important to a community of believers then would that not, by default, bring upon their exclusion to that community? If they did not share the beliefs of that community they profess to belong to how then can they be part of that community?

The same is true here, the Church is merely making explicit what Kerry has already implicitly done, although, I am not sure that they have indeed made this explicit. Regardless, a denial of the central tenets of any belief system excludes them from that belief system.

Also, you guys seem adamant about making the Catholic Church have to pay taxes because they have gotten involved in politics on the basis of the belief of the separation of Church and State. However, keep in mind that Kerry never had to openly admit that he was Catholic nor did he have to openly admit that he was pro-choice. The Church did not get involved until he made that announcement. Yet, when the Church intervenes as it should since Kerry professes the same faith as all Catholics, suddenly the Church is the big bad political institution trying to impose their views upon the government. So, if the separation of Church and State really existed then Kerry should have not said a word. A double standard exists. He can profess to be a Catholic but when the Catholic Church gets involved everyone yells how dare the Church do that, what ever happened to the separation of Church and State.

The Church is merely reiterating what it has always held, it is Kerry that is getting the Church involved.

Just my .02
 
linwood

linwood

Well-Known Member
The Church is merely reiterating what it has always held, it is Kerry that is getting the Church involved.
Click to expand...

No.
Kerry cannot rfuse to answer inquiries as to his personal faith and he most certainly He He cannot refuse to answer inquires into his personal beliefs of abortion.
These two questions are central to many peoples decision making process ..the voters must know.

The people who got the church involved are the Bishops making false announcements and this lawyer filing suit for excommunication for political views.

It`s altogether disgusting.
 
L

logos

Member
linwood said:
No.
Kerry cannot rfuse to answer inquiries as to his personal faith and he most certainly He He cannot refuse to answer inquires into his personal beliefs of abortion.
These two questions are central to many peoples decision making process ..the voters must know.

The people who got the church involved are the Bishops making false announcements and this lawyer filing suit for excommunication for political views.

It`s altogether disgusting.
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i don't agree, but that is neither here nor there. What about the fact that he professes to be Catholic and yet does not abide by Catholic beliefs? What if a Muslim decided that he did not believe Mohammed was a Prophet? Why is it only the Catholic Church that cannot do something about its members but other religions can do as they please?
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
logos said:
i don't agree, but that is neither here nor there. What about the fact that he professes to be Catholic and yet does not abide by Catholic beliefs? What if a Muslim decided that he did not believe Mohammed was a Prophet? Why is it only the Catholic Church that cannot do something about its members but other religions can do as they please?
Click to expand...

There is very much an atheist desire and hope that religion will be practised by individuals. Any religious or religion that needs to force society into one of the conflicting models of religion is ultimately un-democratic.

-pah-
 
linwood

linwood

Well-Known Member
What about the fact that he professes to be Catholic and yet does not abide by Catholic beliefs?
Click to expand...

I agree with you but I am sympathetic to his dillema.

I grew up in a Catholic family that had reached an age where it could no longer have the faith they were always told to have.
But it is difficult to simply denounce something that has become a part of you.

Even if your head tells you it can`t be harmonized.
 
L

logos

Member
linwood said:
I agree with you but I am sympathetic to his dillema.

I grew up in a Catholic family that had reached an age where it could no longer have the faith they were always told to have.
But it is difficult to simply denounce something that has become a part of you.

Even if your head tells you it can`t be harmonized.
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Ok, this makes sense and helps me understand the issue more clearly. Maybe not for Kerry specifically, but it does shed light on some important issues.

Thank You
 
Scott1

Scott1

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
Kerry cannot rfuse to answer inquiries as to his personal faith and he most certainly He He cannot refuse to answer inquires into his personal beliefs of abortion.
These two questions are central to many peoples decision making process ..the voters must know
Click to expand...
I am glad you feel this way... it shows that if the voters must know about issues that relate to faith like abortion (because it is "central to many peoples decision making process") then the Church also has the same obligation to the voters to provide that information.
If Kerry can not refuse to answer questions about his faith or exclude the fact he is a Catholic, why is there no outrage of his tax status? Kerry is on our dime as a US Senator talking about his faith and moral beliefs..... separation of Church and State, anyone?
I know some here think it's great fun to attack a Church or a group of people, but you have to apply the same standard of questioning to the people and groups you do like.

Peace,
Scott
 
painted wolf

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
um, Kerry isn't tax exempt for one thing, so why would people get upset about his tax status?

Also Kerry made a point to say that he did not feel like it was his place to legislate his religious views and thus force them on others. So I for one admire his willingness to admit that he is a religious person but that he is also tolerant of others.

I remember hearing that when Kenedy was running for president that a lot of people were scared that he would move lock-step with the Catholic church and in effect have the Pope running the USA. I for one am glad that he was willing to say that while he had faith in the Catholic church that he wasn't going to let it dictate his political decisions. It did a lot of good to help subdue and negate the predjudice that many people had agenst the Catholics.

Odd that now Kerry is getting in trouble for the same position.

wa:do
 
Rex

Rex

Founder
SOGFPP said:
I am glad you feel this way... it shows that if the voters must know about issues that relate to faith like abortion (because it is "central to many peoples decision making process") then the Church also has the same obligation to the voters to provide that information.
If Kerry can not refuse to answer questions about his faith or exclude the fact he is a Catholic, why is there no outrage of his tax status? Kerry is on our dime as a US Senator talking about his faith and moral beliefs..... separation of Church and State, anyone?
I know some here think it's great fun to attack a Church or a group of people, but you have to apply the same standard of questioning to the people and groups you do like.

Peace,
Scott
Click to expand...
I agree Scott. You can also put this example like if I was advocating the non use of hand guns but was a card carrier of the NRA then the NRA has the responsibility of stepping in and saying what they want.

Regardless if the voters asked what he was the church has a right to step in and say something.
 
Scott1

Scott1

Well-Known Member
painted wolf said:
I for one am glad that he was willing to say that while he had faith in the Catholic church that he wasn't going to let it dictate his political decisions. It did a lot of good to help subdue and negate the predjudice that many people had agenst the Catholics.

Odd that now Kerry is getting in trouble for the same position.
Click to expand...
Kerry is in a bit different situation. Kennedy never said that his faith as a Catholic would not dictate his political decisions, he said that the Church (meaning the Pope and teaching office) would not tell him what to do. Kennedy never spoke out or voted directly against what the Church teaches (to my knowledge)..... Kerry does.

um, Kerry isn't tax exempt for one thing, so why would people get upset about his tax status?
Click to expand...
I never said Kerry was tax-exempt, did I? I was asking why those that bring up the tax status of the Church for speaking about political issues don't apply the same standard to polititians (whose salaries are paid by tax dollars) who speak about faith.

Also Kerry made a point to say that he did not feel like it was his place to legislate his religious views and thus force them on others. So I for one admire his willingness to admit that he is a religious person but that he is also tolerant of others.
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Kerry is not forced to be a Catholic.... if he decided today that he would publicly remove himself from the Church out of respect for its views, he would have my respect and love as well as millions of other Catholics. Tolererance is a virtue only if what is being tolerated has virtue.... to be tolerant of murder is not an admirable quality.... to be tolerant of racism is not a virtue..... to be tolerant of those who protect life, justice and peace is a virtue and should be admired.


Peace,
Scott
 
linwood

linwood

Well-Known Member
I was asking why those that bring up the tax status of the Church for speaking about political issues don't apply the same standard to polititians (whose salaries are paid by tax dollars) who speak about faith.
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I`m not one of them.

I would have a problem with the Catholic Church telling it`s followers it`s a sin to vote for a candidate.
I`d also have a problem with the church telling it`s followers God wants them to vote for someone.

While there have been a couple knee-jerk media articles about the issue it hasn`t happened.
In fact I feel the Vatican ..through no fault of their own..is being used by some of these people to further their agenda .
The media likes the sensation of the first rumour but doesn`t afford any retraction as boldly as they did the intial article.

So they`re actually being used by the other side as well...lol.

I just caught that...weird.
Kerry is not forced to be a Catholic.... if he decided today that he would publicly remove himself
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Perhaps he should, perhaps he will sooner or later.
But it`s not like walking away from a TV show, you know the level of indoctrination within the Catholic Church.

Can you walk away so easily after a lifetime?
 
Scott1

Scott1

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
But it`s not like walking away from a TV show, you know the level of indoctrination within the Catholic Church.

Can you walk away so easily after a lifetime?
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You sure can. It's actually pretty easy. It's also easy to join.......... like I did. It's a choice, plain and simple.

I dislike the Catholic Church and would have enjoyed yet another scandal.
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I am sorry to read that you fell this way.... the Church is the people of the faith... one billion of us...... 1/6 the population of this planet..... how can you dislike so many people you have not met....??????????.....

Oh well, to each his own...... I still love you and hope your life is without scandal or torment, and that is what makes us truly different.

Peace,
Scott
 
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