Is Jesus God and How Not to Use Hebrew

sandy whitelinger said:

"The claim here is that the Hebrew term used in Psalm 110:1 which refers to the Messiah is not an Hebrew word which refers to God.... That particular word in Hebrew refers to God at least 25 times:

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No, the claim here is that it is not a word which is used only of God. Not in Hebrew, not in Greek, and not in English. I honestly don't know whether you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or you're just too obtuse to understand it. But it's getting a little old.

Sandy,

What Paulthinks about Who Christ was or was not is of interest to me, but it is not authoritative to me.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

What Paulthinks about Who Christ was or was not is of interest to me, but it is not authoritative to me.

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Exactly. I'm not allowed to frubal you again yet, but I tried.

Popeyesays said:

Sandy,

What Paulthinks about Who Christ was or was not is of interest to me, but it is not authoritative to me.

Regards,
Scott

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Which pretty much means that we have nothing to say to each other then. To speak of part of the Bible without using all of the Bible is pointless, especially since we are discussing the Messiah.

sandy whitelinger said:

Which pretty much means that we have nothing to say to each other then. To speak of part of the Bible without using all of the Bible is pointless, especially since we are discussing the Messiah.

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I assume you are addressing me.
The problem is that strict literalism gets one nowhere in understanding holy text. It is written in parable, metaphor, symbology and in layers of all those things as well as being occasionally literal.

Jesus can't BE Melchizedel unless He is some kind of reincarnation of Melchizedek, and I doubt you believe in reincarnation.

Regards,
Scott

MidnightBlue said:

No, the claim here is that it is not a word which is used only of God. Not in Hebrew, not in Greek, and not in English. I honestly don't know whether you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or you're just too obtuse to understand it. But it's getting a little old.

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Perhaps you just didn't understand the implication of what you said. So.... let me quote you again.

MidnightBlue said:

"The text we have, in Greek, may somewhat obscure the point -- although I really think it's clear in Greek and English. But in Hebrew the Psalm uses a word for "to my lord" (ladonee) that is a form of the common noun adon -- lord, master, owner. It's the word by which Eliezer refers to Abraham, and the word by which Joseph's brothers and servants refer to Joseph.

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The clear implication of your words are that the Hebrew word used (which by the way was not ladonee) is not intended to be used for God. I proved otherwise. That you try and change your meaning after the fact doesn't discount what you said.

Now as to this:

MidnightBlue said:

Jesus is saying, "If the Messiah is a descendant of David, why does David call him 'Master'?" It's an interesting question, and would make an interesting thread. But it's not a claim that the Messiah is God."

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Your logic is what failed you not mine. That you cannot figure out what Jesus was saying is that, one, you put your own word in instead of the one that was used and two you won't accept the idea that David called his son Lord because his son was God. until you come up with an acceptable reason for this then you are only left with the reason you won't accept.

Popeyesays said:

I assume you are addressing me.
The problem is that strict literalism gets one nowhere in understanding holy text. It is written in parable, metaphor, symbology and in layers of all those things as well as being occasionally literal.

Jesus can't BE Melchizedel unless He is some kind of reincarnation of Melchizedek, and I doubt you believe in reincarnation.

Regards,
Scott

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The claim is not that Christ is a reincarnation of Melchizidek but that He is a priest after the order of Melchizidek. Christ was a priest and king but could not be a Levitical priest because He was from the tribe of Levi. Yet trying to explain the meaning of this , which is explained in Hebrews, is pointless since you won't accept Hebrews.

sandy whitelinger said:

The claim is not that Christ is a reincarnation of Melchizidek but that He is a priest after the order of Melchizidek. Christ was a priest and king but could not be a Levitical priest because He was from the tribe of Levi. Yet trying to explain the meaning of this , which is explained in Hebrews, is pointless since you won't accept Hebrews.

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I only respect Hebrews and the other Epistles as commentary. Commentary is not authoritative. If Jesus says it, I will acept it as authoritative, but not if He did not say it. I have trouble with Revelations because it is patently a vision being described, and John, however holy, is capable of error in understanding what he sees and hears.

Regards,
Scott

sandy whitelinger said:

Your logic is what failed you not mine. That you cannot figure out what Jesus was saying is that, one, you put your own word in instead of the one that was used and two you won't accept the idea that David called his son Lord because his son was God. until you come up with an acceptable reason for this then you are only left with the reason you won't accept.

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Okay, pay attention for just one minute:

"My own word," as you call it, is a synonym for "your" word, the word you believe -- for reasons I can't begin to imagine -- was used in the original text. Lord and Master are both appropriate here. Neither one refers only to God.

If you don't understand by now, you probably never will. I agree that your logic hasn't failed. What logic?

Well, there is lots of evidence for the Deity of Christ. But, I just had a couple verses I think suggest it:

2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(King James Bible, Philippians)


3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(King James Bible, 1 Timothy)

14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(King James Bible, Philippians)


20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(King James Bible, Acts)

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(King James Bible, John)
5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(King James Bible, 1 John)

I would add that Jesus accepted worship many times in the gospel accounts, and Peter and Paul and even angels would not accept worship, saying worship only GOD, therefore, Jesus is God IMO. God the Father is God, and God the Son is God, and God the Holy Spirit is God, and they are one God. There is tons more proof, but I just wanted to share that little bit. Thanks.

Mister_T said:

People distort scriptual meaning with the English version as well. What's your point? You've been pushing this topic for a while to no avail.

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Sandy.......Did you forget about lil' 'ol me?

Isn't the point being in the Scripture that Jesus is David's son in the sense that he's in his lineage? Jesus is called Lord but not LORD. (The all-caps indicate God, not Christ.)
Inotherwords, the Pharisees should have done their homework & realized that Jesus came in the line of David & truly was the Messiah. They just did not want to admit it.

Jesus did not hesitate to claim equality with God the Father. The Greek word for equal in John 5:18 is isos, as in an isosceles, or equal-sided, triangle. Jesus was and is “in very nature God,” and therefore was not blaspheming by claiming to be God. The disbelieving Jews had correctly heard Jesus to be making this claim to full deity, even though they rejected His claim.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------In Isaiah, God says that He will not give away His glory to another. Yet Jesus, in John 17, is expecting to receive again the divine glory He shared with the Father before the world began. If Jesus were not deity, this would be a contradiction.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jesus, whose earthly birth is prophesied here, is said to be “from of old, from everlasting,” or “from the days of eternity.” He is not a created being. Rather, He has existed from all eternity.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Note the glorious titles of “the Alpha and the Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last,” “the Almighty,” “the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come.” Read all these titles of Deity, and note that every one in the context can be applied specifically to Jesus. This book is the revelation of Jesus the Divine Son!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Isaiah gave us this glorious prophecy of Jesus’ virgin birth. Matthew amplifies the prophecy by identifying this promised Son as “Immanuel — which means ‘God with us.’ ” Jesus is “GOD with us”! “A son”, yes. But also “God”!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jesus, the prophesied son, “will be called...Mighty God.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The apostle Thomas correctly addressed Jesus as “My Lord and my God.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------“Your throne, O God” — The Old Testament Hebrew word used here is Elohim, used for “God” well over a thousand times in the Bible. This exact scripture from the Psalm is quoted in Hebrews and is applied to Jesus the Son. Jesus is God! Not just “a god,” as some would have us believe. The New Testament Greek word for “God” that is specifically applied to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8 is Theos, used for “God” over 1,300 times in the New Testament.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jesus is called “the Word,” the Logos, of God. As the Logos, He is the manifestation or expression of God to us, “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being” (Hebrews 1:3). He “came from the Father.” As the Logos, Jesus “the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------In Exodus God commands that He alone be worshiped. Jesus reiterated the commandment to worship God only. Yet God the Father’s command in Hebrews 1:6 that His angels worship the Son indicates that the Son too is God. If Jesus were not Deity, this would be idolatry.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------“GOD was manifest in the flesh,” clearly in context referring to Jesus.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Bible speaks of both God the Father and Jesus being Creator of all. Jesus is divine, the Co-Creator!
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Jesus is to be given equal honor with the Father.
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In His Great Commission baptismal command, Jesus said to baptize in the name (not “names&#8221 of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is a strong implication of coequality among Father, Son and Holy Spirit in this verse.
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Often in the Old Testament God is referred to as the Shepherd of His flock, His people. Jesus said of Himself, “I am the good shepherd.”
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“...God...His own blood”! The blood of Jesus Christ, shed for our redemption, is called God’s own blood. The blood of Deity, nothing less!
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It is evident that the “stone that causes men to stumble and [the] rock that makes them fall” of Isaiah and Peter are one and the same. The wording in the Old and New Testaments is identical. Peter knows Him as Jesus Christ; Isaiah calls Him “The Lord Almighty”! The name “the Lord Almighty” is used in the Bible, then, to identify both Jesus the Son and God the Father.
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God identified Himself to Moses by the name “I AM.” Jesus identified Himself to the Jews as that very same “I AM.” The Jews knew exactly what He was claiming and sought to stone Him for such apparent blasphemy — that is, His (true!) claim to be the “I AM” who spoke to Moses.
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Jesus Christ is the Lord’s Branch from the line of David. Jeremiah prophesied that the name of this Branch would be “The Lord our Righteousness” — in Hebrew, JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU. The divine name JEHOVAH (some translate it Yahweh) is applied to Jesus Christ.
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Isaiah speaks of a messenger preparing the way for “our God.” Mark shows that Isaiah’s prophecy spoke of John the Baptist’s preparing for the coming of JESUS! Truly He is “our God.” It is small wonder that Thomas, beholding the resurrected Son, could cry, “My Lord and my God!”
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In verse 3 Jesus is the builder. In verse 4 God is the builder of all.
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Jesus is part of the three-person God-Head (God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). Unlike any other prophet, as muslims will relegate Him to, He claimed to be God in the flesh (John 8:58 "Before Abraham was "I AM") and in John 5:18, John writes "Therefore the religious leaders sought all the more to kill Him, not only because He broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Him equal with God". He never referred to Himself as a son of God, but the Son of God.

Unlike any other prophet, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men stating in John 5:22 "The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son". Unlike any other prophet, Jesus demanded equal honor with the Father, for in John 5:23, "He stated "All should honor the Son, just as they honor the Father". "He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent Him".

Unlike any other prophet, Jesus claimed to dispense eternal life. In John 5:24, Jesus said "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my Word and believes in Him who sent me, has everlasting life and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life". In John 14:6, Jesus said, "Iam the Way, the Truth and The Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me".

Based on historical record as delineated in the scriptures, no other prophet made these claims or was shown worthy of these claims like Jesus. Either you believe through faith that He was the second person of the God-head in the flesh or relegate Him to being a nice man, a prophet of God, but seriously deranged in His thinking regarding His status in God's eyes.

Blueman,

Here are the verses in context, which helps immensely:
"5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth."
(King James Bible, John)

Reading it all where does Jesus claim to even be the Son of God? he is claiming to be the Son of Man, which is a different kettle of fish.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

Reading it all where does Jesus claim to even be the Son of God? he is claiming to be the Son of Man, which is a different kettle of fish.

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Nowhere does Jesus claim to be God. The teaching that Jesus is God comes from Johannine and Pauline (and pseudo-Pauline) literature. Paul never met Jesus, except in claimed ecstatic religious experiences, and his teachings are of dubious worth. Better to stick with Jesus.

Popeyesays said:

Sandy,

What Paulthinks about Who Christ was or was not is of interest to me, but it is not authoritative to me.

Regards,
Scott

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All that's interesting as well but the quotes I gave you did not come from Paul.

Popeyesays said:

I only respect Hebrews and the other Epistles as commentary. Commentary is not authoritative. If Jesus says it, I will acept it as authoritative, but not if He did not say it. I have trouble with Revelations because it is patently a vision being described, and John, however holy, is capable of error in understanding what he sees and hears.

Regards,
Scott

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Fine, go back to the quote out of Matthew 22.

[42] Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
[43] He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
[44] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[45] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Now this is Christ speaking and it refers to Psalm 110:4 which says:

"The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

This was speaking of Messiah and pegs Him as a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Now I really didn't need Hebrews did I? I guess though as a "commentary" then Hebrews seems pretty accurite, eh?

Now back to your original question.

You have to believe that Christ was interested in the mantle of Melchizedek to think this refers to the Moisach (Messiah).

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So, by the words of Christ and the original Psalm we are refering to I would say yes, Christ is interested in the mantle of Melchizedek and this refers to Messiah.

MidnightBlue said:

Okay, pay attention for just one minute:

"My own word," as you call it, is a synonym for "your" word, the word you believe -- for reasons I can't begin to imagine -- was used in the original text. Lord and Master are both appropriate here. Neither one refers only to God.

If you don't understand by now, you probably never will. I agree that your logic hasn't failed. What logic?

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You know, if you want to throw barbs back and forth I'm perfectly capable but it gets tiresome. Now why do I think that word I refered to was used in the original text, well it's because when I go to my Strong's concordance that's the word that was offered. Now, do you have a better source or is it as I suspect that you are just making this up as you go along to fit the idea you have that Messiah can't be divine?