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the only acceptable religion to Allah is Islam

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I'd still like to know, from any Muslim who cares to answer, what you think Islam offers that the law of Moses does not.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
I'd still like to know, from any Muslim who cares to answer, what you think Islam offers that the law of Moses does not.

I don't know if my answer is the right one for your question but what I can say is Qur'an keeps some of Moses' Law , some are modified and some are abolished .

For example according to Moses' law the apostates should be killed but according to Qur'an they should be given freedom of their choices and no punishment is incurred on them .

The punishment of adultery in OT is stoning to death while in Qur'an the same is 100 lashes .

More can be added in the list . These two are just for your perusal .
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Union, is this not just tinkering with the law? It's hardly worth starting a whole new movement on the basis of a few minor alterations to the law.
What Jesus came to bring was not a bit of tinkering to the outward law, it was the fulfilment of the law in love. That same spirit of love is sent to those who place their faith in the risen Christ.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Union, is this not just tinkering with the law? It's hardly worth starting a whole new movement on the basis of a few minor alterations to the law.
What Jesus came to bring was not a bit of tinkering to the outward law, it was the fulfilment of the law in love. That same spirit of love is sent to those who place their faith in the risen Christ.

Message of love is everywhere - with Hindus , Buddist and iwith Muslim as well , nothing especial for Christians .
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The story of Moses and the escape of the Israelites is helpful in illustrating the relationship between law and love.

Moses was given the Law by God on Mt Sinai. Moses is representative of the Law. He leads the Israelites throughout their years in the wilderness. Finally Moses looks into the Promised Land from Mt Nebo, and dies. MOSES NEVER ENTERS THE PROMISED LAND.
The new leader of the Israelites is Joshua (meaning 'Saviour'). Joshua, the Saviour, leads the Israelites into the Promised Land.

Can you see the parallel? Only Jesus can save us from sin and lead us into the Promised Land (The kingdom of Heaven). The law can take us to the very border, but does not provide salvation.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
How do you interprete this verse?

"Verily the only acceptable religion to Allah is Islam." [Quran 3:19]

The point is to know what "the Author" of Quran meant.

Do you think that the Author of Quran, by Islam, He meant the Revelation that came to Muhammad, or He meant submission to God?


My position is that it should be interpreted this way:

"Verily the only acceptable religion to Allah is Submission to the God's commands."

and my reason is, in other verses, people who lived before Muhammad, were also called "Muslims", for example see Quran 7:126

and since, those who were called "Muslims" were not Muslims by name (as they even didn't speak Arabic), but by actions were submitters to God, then it follows that, by Islam, the Author of Quran meant "submission" and not just a name.

If you think, differently, please provide your point and support with verses of Quran, and Authentic Hadithes.

P.S. Please not that this thread is not to discuss whether Quran is from God or not, or if Islam is a good religion or not. It is only about interpretation, and what the Author of Quran meant regarding this verse.

If I may, you already have the answer. Islam means submission as you know. Muslim = Mu + Islam.

e.g. Safer = to travel. Mu = One who does it. Musafer = Traveller/One who travels.

So Muslim means one who submits/One who is submissive.

Think of this a bit. Judaism is in its name, an -ism, its a name given by us humans. e.g. American. Or Marxism. Christianity is also a name similar to that. Islam is not such a name. Rather it is a description. So you are right, it is something that existed since time began. Hope you understand. e.g. Gravity.

The issue is the word religion. When you say "The only religion is Islam" it sounds like a narrow way of putting things. But if you say "The only system is submission" then it sounds very broad.

The system

One God. One Deity. There is no other deity. Nothing else is divine.
Men and women are equal in Gods eyes
Men have more responsibility in providing for the woman.
Freedom of Creed.
Freedom of travel.
No compulsion in the system.
You have to be peaceful.
If you are attacked or someone is oppressed you should fight.
If they come peacefully you should opt to peace.
No racism.
Other divorce laws and every teaching in the Quran.

So it is a way of life and governance. That is Islam. Peace & Submission. Wonder if that makes any sense or I made it a bit more confusing... Peace.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Union, is this not just tinkering with the law? It's hardly worth starting a whole new movement on the basis of a few minor alterations to the law.
What Jesus came to bring was not a bit of tinkering to the outward law, it was the fulfilment of the law in love. That same spirit of love is sent to those who place their faith in the risen Christ.

Brother. There is a world of difference. Jesus did bring fulfillment of law in love. No doubt. But the Muslim stand point is that the Quran defines all fundamental laws necessary for governance and salvation. I am not gonna degrade Jesus or his teachings.

Bible - You cannot even touch the carcass of a pig. Quran - You cannot eat its meat.
Bible - You cannot eat the hare or scaled creatures. Quran - There are four things defined 2:173
To be frank with you, there is no point comparing like this. Rather I could give you scripture that defines a way of life. Based on that foundation you could build a fantastic society.

It is not to say we have adhered to the scripture and built one, rather that the teachings are such, though we have not followed them.

Peace.
 

Sega

Member
If I may, you already have the answer. Islam means submission as you know. Muslim = Mu + Islam.

e.g. Safer = to travel. Mu = One who does it. Musafer = Traveller/One who travels.

So Muslim means one who submits/One who is submissive.

Think of this a bit. Judaism is in its name, an -ism, its a name given by us humans. e.g. American. Or Marxism. Christianity is also a name similar to that. Islam is not such a name. Rather it is a description. So you are right, it is something that existed since time began. Hope you understand. e.g. Gravity.

The issue is the word religion. When you say "The only religion is Islam" it sounds like a narrow way of putting things. But if you say "The only system is submission" then it sounds very broad.

The system

One God. One Deity. There is no other deity. Nothing else is divine.
Men and women are equal in Gods eyes
Men have more responsibility in providing for the woman.
Freedom of Creed.
Freedom of travel.
No compulsion in the system.
You have to be peaceful.
If you are attacked or someone is oppressed you should fight.
If they come peacefully you should opt to peace.
No racism.
Other divorce laws and every teaching in the Quran.

So it is a way of life and governance. That is Islam. Peace & Submission. Wonder if that makes any sense or I made it a bit more confusing... Peace.

Might I say to me, this was a very good way of cutting down Islam into a very breif and compact amount of sentences. Good Job!~ :)
 

Sega

Member
Well, Union, I'm a Gentile saved by Jesus!
The message of the Bible begins with the words, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' and in the last book of the New Testament it says, 'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'
Encapsulated within the covers of the Bible is a complete story of the heaven and earth to which we belong. It tells the whole story of God's dealings with mankind.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that Muhammad is not mentioned in that record, if his position is so important?
Why should people be encouraged back to a system of law when the Messiah has come into the world to complete the law and offer a new testament in the spirit?

I really have no axe to grind. I searched for truth and found Jesus. I wasn't born a Christian! I don't think it's possible to be born into faith in Jesus Christ. You have to be 'born again'.
IMO, everything fits together beautifully!

Surah 61, verse 6.

And remember, Jesus, The son of Mary, said: "O Children Of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah Sent to you, confirming the Torah, which came Before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them With Clear Signs, They said, "This evident is sorcery!"

'Ahmed' or Muhammed, it's literal meaning being 'The Praised One', is almost a translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John. xiv. 16, xv. 26, and xvi. 7, the word "Comforter" in the English version is for the Greek word "Paracletos", which means "Advocate", one called to help of another, a kind friend, rather than Comforter. Many contend that Paracleots is a corrupt reading for Periclytos, and that in their original saying of Jesus there was a prophecy of our holy Prophet Ahmad (Muhammed) by name. Even if we read Paraclete, it would apply to the holy Prophet who is a "a Mercy for all creatures" and "most kind and merciful to the Believers"

Edit: Going back to what I was saying, Mohammed surely is mentioned in record, and Jesus himself had been commanded to reveal this to his people.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Sega, nowhere in the New Testament is there any mention of Ahmad. There are, however, a host of passages that refer to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is clearly not a man. The Holy Spirit is sent by God to dwell in all who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God come to dwell in human hearts. It comes when a person repents and places their faith in the risen Christ. It enables a sinner to begin a new life.

Are there any statements made in the Qur'an, or Hadith, that suggest Muhammad was sinless, raised from death, or able to send the Holy Spirit?

The reason that God felt it necessary to send Jesus Christ to be a Saviour was that sin and death could not be defeated by sinful men attempting to be righteous. Religion cannot save anyone.

Ask yourself, and your friends, whether you, or they, are sinless. I guarantee that there will not be one man or woman who is spotless. If you are not spotless you cannot expect a place in heaven, or indeed in paradise. The realm of God is without sin, so sin cannot be allowed to pollute what is holy. The consequence is that you rely on God's mercy to forgive you of your sins. But law is based on justice; you have no right to expect mercy. God has laid down the blessings and the punishments associated with the law. If you break the law then you are punished.

But if your Saviour is without sin, and has died to pay the price for sin, and has been raised to heaven, THEN you have a Saviour who is able to offer forgiveness on behalf of his friends. And who are his friends? Are they not those who place their faith in HIM?

You should read the New Testament carefully for yourself. It leaves no doubt that Jesus must have been crucified. It also gives credible evidence that he was raised to life again. This is something the Qur'an clearly denies.

You should also look closely at the words and actions of Jesus during his ministry. He worked signs and wonders because he had the authority of God - can the same be said for Muhammad?

If you try cutting out those passages of the New Testament that don't fit with the Qur'an you'll quickly discover that you don't have a New Testament. This should make you face an uncomfortable choice. Either Jesus Christ was a liar, or the Qur'an is a false prophecy.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Firedragon, How can law bring salvation? The failure of religion is the failure of human beings.

I believe I may have been unclear to you, otherwise you would not have asked me this question.

Quran has law, theology for salvation and systems for human a human life. It is not only a book for salvation as in what you should be in order to attain salvation.

I hope I am clear. I did not say "Law brings salvation".

But Quran does not teach you that pure belief in a prophet and God or such thing will give you a direct ticket to salvation. You must follow the law and if you break them it is counted as sin, of course honest change, declaration and making amends will do. e.g. No racism, false slander, cheating etc. It is not like "You believe in me and dont worry about anything else. I will take you to heaven"
Rather

Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve. – Quran 2:62


Peace bro
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sega, nowhere in the New Testament is there any mention of Ahmad. There are, however, a host of passages that refer to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is clearly not a man. The Holy Spirit is sent by God to dwell in all who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

Brother. I in no way intend to offend you. Please allow me take the devils advocates chair to butt in reply to your argument. Hope you will not mind.

You say that Ahmed was not mentioned in the Bible. You are right. But then even Jesus was not mentioned. Where is Jesus mentioned in the Gospels? I know you will say that his name was Yeheshua or Yashua, alright, what if I say even those names were not mentioned in the bible?

Of course, Jesus is cited in the Gospels but remember the gospels are written in Greek and he is mentioned as "Ieesous and Ieesaw (John 18:15)". Thus, you cannot throw away an argument that way. By the way I have to just add that the greek name is very similar to the Arabic name Isa. Thus when though I dont retort generally it is quizzical when Christians dismiss the name Isa when they adopt the Greek name but deny the Arabic name. These are just languages, the person is the same.

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God come to dwell in human hearts. It comes when a person repents and places their faith in the risen Christ. It enables a sinner to begin a new life.

Spirit = Pneuma. This is a generic word in the bible for spirit. When Jesus said "It is finished" in the Gospel of John and gave up his spirit, he does not mean he gave up the holy ghost. It is his spirit, Pheuma.

hagiou pneumatos is the holy spirit as in THE holy spirit. When this parakleetos issue comes up in John, it is the spirit of the truth or to pneuma tees aleetheias who shall come after Jesus departs. It does not mean the Holy spirit because the Holy spirit was there from the beginning with Jesus. Hope its clear.

Are there any statements made in the Qur'an, or Hadith, that suggest Muhammad was sinless, raised from death, or able to send the Holy Spirit?

The reason that God felt it necessary to send Jesus Christ to be a Saviour was that sin and death could not be defeated by sinful men attempting to be righteous. Religion cannot save anyone.

Ask yourself, and your friends, whether you, or they, are sinless. I guarantee that there will not be one man or woman who is spotless. If you are not spotless you cannot expect a place in heaven, or indeed in paradise. The realm of God is without sin, so sin cannot be allowed to pollute what is holy. The consequence is that you rely on God's mercy to forgive you of your sins. But law is based on justice; you have no right to expect mercy. God has laid down the blessings and the punishments associated with the law. If you break the law then you are punished.

But if your Saviour is without sin, and has died to pay the price for sin, and has been raised to heaven, THEN you have a Saviour who is able to offer forgiveness on behalf of his friends. And who are his friends? Are they not those who place their faith in HIM?

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. – Ezekiel 18:20


Sin is not inherited unless suddenly God decided so after Jesus. I doubt it very much.

I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring
on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is
alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. - Luke

The father forgives his son based on his repentance. There is no mention of Jesus having to die here.

You should read the New Testament carefully for yourself. It leaves no doubt that Jesus must have been crucified. It also gives credible evidence that he was raised to life again. This is something the Qur'an clearly denies.

This is what the Quran says.

The Quran proclaims that Jesus was not crucified but it was made to appear as he was. Not too much explanation is needed to justify that Jesus did not die on the cross, God merely wills it and it occurs. God made it appear as if Jesus was crucified, whether it was someone else or it was just an illusion is not a question, but it is clear that it appeared as such.

The Gospels in the bible is claimed to have been the narrations of those who witnessed the crucifixion. But they are not statements made by God. Quranic version of the story is different but will coincide with the bible story since the Gospels are written by human witnesses whilst the Quran says that it appeared as if he was crucified, thus even if the Gospels were written by true witnesses, there is no dispute between the two narrations.

And their saying: “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of God!” And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty. – Quran 4:157


You should also look closely at the words and actions of Jesus during his ministry. He worked signs and wonders because he had the authority of God - can the same be said for Muhammad?

You should also see what the Quran says about Jesus

God said: “O Jesus, son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother, that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in
the cradle and middle-age; and I taught you the Book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Gospel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird with My permission; and you would heal the blind and the leaper with My permission; and you would bring out the dead with My permission. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected among them said: ‘This is clearly magic!’” – Quran 5:110


The above verse confirms the biblical passage where Jesus says he performed miracles by the finger of God.

But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. – Luke 11:20

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. – John 5:30


The biblical narrative is generally conceived to be completely different but the fact is if a close inspection of the Gospels and the Quran is made, it is more similar than different. The differences are in current Christian belief systems and the Quranic narrative, not really in the scriptural narratives.

If you try cutting out those passages of the New Testament that don't fit with the Qur'an you'll quickly discover that you don't have a New Testament. This should make you face an uncomfortable choice. Either Jesus Christ was a liar, or the Qur'an is a false prophecy.

Either Jesus was a liar or Quran is false, this is a common statement. But it is not true. Even in the bible Jesus is quite similar to the Jesus in the Quran. It is the teachings of people that differ.

Jesus is called the Masih or Messiah in the Quran. It is more similar to the Gospels.

Peace bro.
 

Sega

Member
Sega, nowhere in the New Testament is there any mention of Ahmad. There are, however, a host of passages that refer to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is clearly not a man. The Holy Spirit is sent by God to dwell in all who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God come to dwell in human hearts. It comes when a person repents and places their faith in the risen Christ. It enables a sinner to begin a new life.

Are there any statements made in the Qur'an, or Hadith, that suggest Muhammad was sinless, raised from death, or able to send the Holy Spirit?

The reason that God felt it necessary to send Jesus Christ to be a Saviour was that sin and death could not be defeated by sinful men attempting to be righteous. Religion cannot save anyone.

Ask yourself, and your friends, whether you, or they, are sinless. I guarantee that there will not be one man or woman who is spotless. If you are not spotless you cannot expect a place in heaven, or indeed in paradise. The realm of God is without sin, so sin cannot be allowed to pollute what is holy. The consequence is that you rely on God's mercy to forgive you of your sins. But law is based on justice; you have no right to expect mercy. God has laid down the blessings and the punishments associated with the law. If you break the law then you are punished.

But if your Saviour is without sin, and has died to pay the price for sin, and has been raised to heaven, THEN you have a Saviour who is able to offer forgiveness on behalf of his friends. And who are his friends? Are they not those who place their faith in HIM?

You should read the New Testament carefully for yourself. It leaves no doubt that Jesus must have been crucified. It also gives credible evidence that he was raised to life again. This is something the Qur'an clearly denies.

You should also look closely at the words and actions of Jesus during his ministry. He worked signs and wonders because he had the authority of God - can the same be said for Muhammad?

If you try cutting out those passages of the New Testament that don't fit with the Qur'an you'll quickly discover that you don't have a New Testament. This should make you face an uncomfortable choice. Either Jesus Christ was a liar, or the Qur'an is a false prophecy.

I could say the same thing for the Quran.

In the Quran, no where does it contain the name 'Jesus', but it does say the name 'Isa', which is the Arabic for Jesus. I said before that 'Periclytos' is the Greek word for what is 'Ahmad'.
 

Sega

Member
Of course, Jesus is cited in the Gospels but remember the gospels are written in Greek and he is mentioned as "Ieesous and Ieesaw (John 18:15)". Thus, you cannot throw away an argument that way. By the way I have to just add that the greek name is very similar to the Arabic name Isa. Thus when though I dont retort generally it is quizzical when Christians dismiss the name Isa when they adopt the Greek name but deny the Arabic name. These are just languages, the person is the same

Once again, I have to agree with Firedragon.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Well, Christianity is very different.

Christianity says that God just wants people to love their neighbor as much as themselves. So loving the others is sufficient. You don't have to believe in any God to do that. God doesn't want neither submission, nor worship.
That's why even Atheists can be saved, as long as they are altruistic, good, and generous.
 

Sega

Member
I believe I may have been unclear to you, otherwise you would not have asked me this question.

Quran has law, theology for salvation and systems for human a human life. It is not only a book for salvation as in what you should be in order to attain salvation.

I hope I am clear. I did not say "Law brings salvation".

But Quran does not teach you that pure belief in a prophet and God or such thing will give you a direct ticket to salvation. You must follow the law and if you break them it is counted as sin, of course honest change, declaration and making amends will do. e.g. No racism, false slander, cheating etc. It is not like "You believe in me and dont worry about anything else. I will take you to heaven"
Rather

Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve. – Quran 2:62


Peace bro

Lol, let's go for the three-peat with agreeing.

That's the difference between Islam and Christianity. Simply believing may not be enough to attain salvation in Islam. It is assumed that if one has such a strong belief, they will follow the teachings and 'laws' of Islam, whereas Christianity only needs 'belief' for salvation because of the idea Jesus died for their sins.
 
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