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Was Muhammad a prophet?

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Jesus said something very telling in Luke 16:16,
"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

If the law and the prophets did not continue beyond John the Baptist, then Muhammad must be a false prophet; unless Muhammad was preaching the kingdom of God - in which case, he would have been telling people to place their faith in the King, Jesus Christ.

Is this another of those 'corrupted' passages, proving that the Bible has been tampered with, or is it further evidence that Muhammad was not a true prophet?

Another point to consider is the nationality of God's prophets. Were they all from the tribes of Israel?
 

ametist

Active Member
From a christian perspective he probably is not. From a muslim perspective jesus is a prophet and you cant be a muslim if you deny jesus being a prophet. But he is not god since that would be proposing an equal to god which cant be in any form (physical or not) that can be imagined by man. Muslims are monotheist.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Muhammad was of the Qurayish (?) tribe, which cannot be traced to the 12 tribes of Israel. If God ONLY chose prophets from the 12 tribes then Muhammad could not have been one of God's prophets.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
ametist said:
I read that he is traced to ishmael who is also a prophet.

Ishmael is only a prophet in the qur'an, and in Islamic traditions.

In Genesis, it say nothing about Ishmael being a prophet. He received a blessing, and the blessing is that he will be father a dozen tribes that are named after his sons.

More is written about Ishmael's mother talking to angel(s), so she was more of "prophet" than Ishmael.

But some Muslims don't believe women can be prophetesses, because of their sexist upbringing that Muslim women (or women in general) are weak or weaker than men.

But yeah, Muslims believe that Muhammad was a direct descendants of Ishmael, even though there are no evidences to support this genealogy, and no evidences to support that Abraham or Ishmael even exist (I am not being bias, because there are no evidences to support the existences of Isaac, Jacob, Moses or Joshua too).
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
According to the Bible, Abraham only had one son with Sarah, and that was Isaac. Isaac had a son called Jacob, and Jacob inherited his father's blessing. Jacob fathered the 12 sons whose families become the 12 tribes.
Hagar was Sarah's handmaid from Egypt. She gives birth to Ishmael and is eventually forced to leave camp.
The stories of Ishmael and Isaac become confused in the Qur'an, but Ishmael does not father Jacob. Muhammad cannot, therefore, be traced to the Israelites. He cannot be a prophet by association with God's chosen people.
 

ametist

Active Member
Whatever. You dont get the point you cant look at muslim prophethood from christian or judaist perspective. He is chosen as a prophet that is enough for muslims. if you are not muslim, it doesnt really matter which family he comes from.you can always find a way to not to justify him. Also sons of israel are once chosen people of god in quran. reasons are told why they are not then. Muslims can correct my post if wrong.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is a descendent of Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, through Prophet Ishmael, peace be upon him.

The Jews of the 6th. century knew very well from their books that it was the time for God's last prophet to appear, and several Jewish tribes were located around Madinah for that purpose.

His description was so clear in their books, that when he arrived in Madinah from Makkah, they recognized him better than they recognized their own sons.

One of the leading Jewish scholars in Madinah at the time tells his story when he met Prophet Muhammad for the first time:

Abdullah ibn Salam (A Man of Paradise) - His Companions - Reading Islam - OnIslam.net
 

Sega

Member
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is a descendent of Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, through Prophet Ishmael, peace be upon him.

The Jews of the 6th. century knew very well from their books that it was the time for God's last prophet to appear, and several Jewish tribes were located around Madinah for that purpose.

His description was so clear in their books, that when he arrived in Madinah from Makkah, they recognized him better than they recognized their own sons.

One of the leading Jewish scholars in Madinah at the time tells his story when he met Prophet Muhammad for the first time:

Abdullah ibn Salam (A Man of Paradise) - His Companions - Reading Islam - OnIslam.net

This in fact is true. Those who had known had not denied the fact that he was a prophet, but often refused to follow him knowing that he was of Arab decent and not a Jew.

For those who know of the priest Bahira, the man who had told Muhammed's uncle Abu Talib, that Muhammed was prophesied to be a prophet, they would know the fact that Bahira advised Abu Talib to keep Muhammed away from the Jews knowing that he would be killed if he ever fell into their hands. The reason being that they know 'Ahmed' (Muhammed) would be a prophet and Muhammed fit the description so well.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jesus said something very telling in Luke 16:16,
"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

If the law and the prophets did not continue beyond John the Baptist, then Muhammad must be a false prophet; unless Muhammad was preaching the kingdom of God - in which case, he would have been telling people to place their faith in the King, Jesus Christ.

Is this another of those 'corrupted' passages, proving that the Bible has been tampered with, or is it further evidence that Muhammad was not a true prophet?

Another point to consider is the nationality of God's prophets. Were they all from the tribes of Israel?

No, not at all. Prophets from the One-True-God came in many nations of the world and almost every region and at different times.

None of them spoke against the others; it is their ignorant followers who fight with one another in their names.

Regards
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Cordoba, it's a nice story, and one that may contain some truth, but we are not told which prophecies from the Torah are supposed to have convinced this particular rabbi. The fact that the rest of the Jewish community were unconvinced by the reasoning suggests that his interpretation of the prophecies was not widely accepted. I can only assume that this is another attempt to twist Deuteronomy 18:18.

It's important to understand that the Tanakh, the Old Testament, contains prophecies which look forward to the Messiah and the Kingdom of God. The Messiah represents the culmination of all that God plans for mankind. Through HIM, and in him, there is salvation and an everlasting kingdom.

If Deuteronomy 18:18 did refer to Muhammad, we would expect to find the fulfilment of the prophecy in the New Testament. But nowhere is there any mention of Muhammad as the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecies. Don't forget, the New Testament provides a prophecy that takes us to the 'new heaven and new earth'. It does not miss out any period of history, so it cannot be argued that the period of Muhammad is missing. The 'times of the Gentiles' is mentioned as the period when Jerusalem is not under Jewish rule. (Luke 21:24).
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Cordoba, it's a nice story, and one that may contain some truth, but we are not told which prophecies from the Torah are supposed to have convinced this particular rabbi. The fact that the rest of the Jewish community were unconvinced by the reasoning suggests that his interpretation of the prophecies was not widely accepted. I can only assume that this is another attempt to twist Deuteronomy 18:18.

It's important to understand that the Tanakh, the Old Testament, contains prophecies which look forward to the Messiah and the Kingdom of God. The Messiah represents the culmination of all that God plans for mankind. Through HIM, and in him, there is salvation and an everlasting kingdom.

If Deuteronomy 18:18 did refer to Muhammad, we would expect to find the fulfilment of the prophecy in the New Testament. But nowhere is there any mention of Muhammad as the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecies. Don't forget, the New Testament provides a prophecy that takes us to the 'new heaven and new earth'. It does not miss out any period of history, so it cannot be argued that the period of Muhammad is missing. The 'times of the Gentiles' is mentioned as the period when Jerusalem is not under Jewish rule. (Luke 21:24).

Prophet is a person who gives accurate information of the past, present and future by receiving Word of Revelation from the One-True-God.

Since Torah due to being corrupted at hands of the narrators/scribes/clergy it is now a mix.

It does not provide reliable information even about Exodus so its prophetic characteristic about the future is also changed.

Israeli Archaeologists at Tel Aviv have excavated the cities and locations mentioned in the Torah and have confirmed that as per the narrations of the Torah, no Exodus took place.

QuoteTel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.

And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.[31][32]

Professor Finkelstein, who is known as "the father of biblical archaeology", told the Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative on the Exodus, the Jews' wandering in Sinai or Joshua's conquest of Canaan.

On the alleged Temple of Solomon, Finkelstein said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed.[33] Professor Yoni Mizrahi, an independent archaeologist who has worked with the International Atomic Energy Agency, agreed with Israel Finkelstein.[33]

Regarding the Exodus of Israelites from Egypt, Egyptian archaeologist Zahi Hawass said:

“Really, it’s a myth,”... “This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.”[34] Unquote

Biblical archaeology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So before analyzing the prophecies of future mentioned in Torah; it has to be purified from these corruptions/changes for its narratives for future made by the narrators/scribes/clergy.

Regards
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
Jesus said something very telling in Luke 16:16,
"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

If the law and the prophets did not continue beyond John the Baptist, then Muhammad must be a false prophet; unless Muhammad was preaching the kingdom of God - in which case, he would have been telling people to place their faith in the King, Jesus Christ.

Jesus just said that prophets were send until John, not that there's no more prophets after him.

Muhammad was of the Qurayish (?) tribe, which cannot be traced to the 12 tribes of Israel. If God ONLY chose prophets from the 12 tribes then Muhammad could not have been one of God's prophets.

Noah, Enoch were not from Israel tribes. (don't know if Enoch is a prophet for you or Patriarch)

Also sons of israel are once chosen people of god in quran. reasons are told why they are not then. Muslims can correct my post if wrong.

Correct.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
From a christian perspective he probably is not. From a muslim perspective jesus is a prophet and you cant be a muslim if you deny jesus being a prophet. But he is not god since that would be proposing an equal to god which cant be in any form (physical or not) that can be imagined by man. Muslims are monotheist.

Jesus is God. Even the trinity idea has the Godhead with Jesus.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Paarsurrey,
I do hope we get some Jews on board who fancy spending time picking this argument of yours apart.
To begin with, the documentary evidence in support of the Torah is very strong. What evidence do you have that there has been any major corruption of the text?

The fact that little archaeological evidence has been found relating to the Exodus is of little surprise. The Hebrews were a pastoral people until they were made slaves, and after the escape they headed for the desert to escape the pursuing Egyptians. Were the Egyptians going to record a disaster in their hieroglyphic history books? Not likely.

However, if you check out the original territory of Midian, you will see that it extended into what is today's Saudi Arabia. The most likely site for Mount Horeb (Sinai) is in the mountains on the Eastern border of Saudi Arabia, not the Sinai peninsula, which was still Egyptian territory at the time of the Exodus.

When it comes to archaeology within Israel, there is more than enough to validate the biblical texts. In fact, it's the Bible that has led archaeologists to some of their most astonishing discoveries.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Pastek,
'The law and the prophets were until John:' means that the law and the prophets were God's method of revealing his will. This period of revelation came to an end with John the Baptist, the spirit of Elijah, the forerunner of the Messiah. After John the Baptist, Jesus Christ came to preach the kingdom of God on earth.

The point being made is that there is no need to return to law (under Islam) if the law has come to an end and something better (faith in the Saviour) has been introduced in its place.

As regards biblical prophets and their work, I still have unanswered questions. I'll try to do some research, but hope that a more expert commentator might help out!
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Can I correct a mistake I made in #17, where I said the eastern border of Saudi Arabia. I meant the mountains on the western border!
 
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