God and Free will

idav said:

Problem is divergence still happens.

Why do identical twins end up having such different lives? | Science | The Observer

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Because identical twins aren't 100% identical. The mother plays a role in divergence even during pregnancy.. Add to that the innumerable environmental stimuli.

Hay85 said:

Well...are you saying that people who do evil stuff are genetically evil and selfish, whereas people who do good things are genetically good and altruistic?

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Genetics are only part of the equation, as you've known. Was Einstein mentally retarded? Or did genetics play a vital role in the development of his brain- his genius?

Hay85 said:

Good point. but... a hour ago, I was reading an interesting thread and I was tempted to respond. But then I decided it was not necessary. As you can see, I used my free will.

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There is another factor at play here that you missed. There is a reason why it seemed unnecessary to reply, it wasn't a spontaneous decision, something came upon you that made you feel it was unnecessary to respond.

Suggestions, but not guarantees (since I am not you and do not know exactly what happened): Maybe you did not feel it was worth writing which would in itself be a factor of cause and effect, but even that feeling was influenced by comparing the values of writing the post out and the reading of that writing, and then decided the compared values were not needed.

Well...I would agree on your speech, if you proved me that man has no strength of will. Actually man does have it. When a person has a big strength of will, all the external influences have no effect on him.
So the cause-effect system doesn't work on a person with a big strength of will.

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To avoid getting down and dirty in hard determinism, let's say man does have the power to make decisions. These decisions are still influenced by factors outside of it. For example; your beliefs are from observations and conclusions drawn from your reasoning, and thus your choice of beliefs were influenced by those. Another example would be that: I would not put a frown emoticon after saying "happy birthday" I choose to put a smiley face on it because of the factors: the post has a happy tone to it, that it fits more with the post.

I understand that very few people have a big strength of will. However I like your way of reasoning very much.

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I appreciate it, and I like yours as well.

Sleeppy said:

Genetics are only part of the equation, as you've known. Was Einstein mentally retarded? Or did genetics play a vital role in the development of his brain- his genius?

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Well, people tend to justify wickedness by mentioning genetics. Sentences like "He can't help it, he was born this way" are very common, but I certainly don't agree with them.
One can easily learn from their mistakes. Erring is human, but persevering in the error, is devilish.

That's what history is for: so we avoid repeating the same mistakes. I understand that an external environment strongly determines our free will. But we are still free to decide. Free will is more visible when you rebel yourself against a value system, or an unjust rule. So you cannot justify yourself by saying "I was respecting the rules, or I was just obeying an order".

Free will is visible when a person prefers to be killed rather than doing something evil under threat.
That doesn't mean this person wants to die. It just means that dying is less worse than doing evil.

Sleeppy said:

Because identical twins aren't 100% identical. The mother plays a role in divergence even during pregnancy.. Add to that the innumerable environmental stimuli.

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The article say something they are a clone and is an issue to your statement. It isnt the final say on likes and dislikes, that comes from freewill or they wouldnt diverge. We recognize when it happens like a son with the fathers habits but take no notice when it doesnt take hold like that.

The Sum of Awe said:

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To avoid getting down and dirty in hard determinism, let's say man does have the power to make decisions. These decisions are still influenced by factors outside of it. For example; your beliefs are from observations and conclusions drawn from your reasoning, and thus your choice of beliefs were influenced by those. Another example would be that: I would not put a frown emoticon after saying "happy birthday" I choose to put a smiley face on it because of the factors: the post has a happy tone to it, that it fits more with the post..

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I understand what you mean. Confrontation with the others determines our decisions or choices...so it is difficult to think of a will which is really free from external conditions.
I didn't say that using free will is simple. It's the most difficult thing ever, because you have to "read in people's mind" and t be empathetic with them (It sounds like something paranormal, but it isn't). So you can prevent to hurt them.
It's possible, though

idav said:

The article say something they are a clone and is an issue to your statement. It isnt the final say on likes and dislikes, that comes from freewill or they wouldnt diverge. We recognize when it happens like a son with the fathers habits but take no notice when it doesnt take hold like that.

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If the article says twins are clones, it's inaccurate; there are too many very complex processes occurring during pregnancy, making complete cloning of genetic information impossible. We have evolutionary mutations for this reason. Even when a mother of twins eats, nutrition is not evenly distributed, and so weight (and other) differences (however slight) are always noticed. But even if it were true, the subtle environmental variables are enough.

When you speak about "free will", what is it that you think the will can or cannot be free from?

ericoh2 said:

When you speak about "free will", what is it that you think the will can or cannot be free from?

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Well, freedom from the others' influence. In democracy I guess that all people are free to do what they like.