Return of Christ

Saint Frankenstein · Jul 1, 2014

ChristineES said:
I don't think so. All the Christians I know love the Jewish people and support Israel.

Even if you don't support Israel, anti-Zionism doesn't mean support of genocide. The only ones who would support genocide of the Jewish people are nutjob "Christian" Identity freaks.

(I am not a Christian Zionist as Catholic teaching doesn't allow for such a position. It's basically a heresy.)

InChrist · Jul 1, 2014

Bunyip said:
Thanks for the response, but Israel wasn't born in a day - it took years of negotiations. And if you mean that it was declared to be a nation state in a single day - then the same goes for all nation states.

There are more Jews in Australia and the US then in Israel, so they are gathered in Melbourne as much as in Israel. More importantly the nations of the earth are most definitely NOT aligned against Israel - Israel is supported by the most powerful nations on earth.

My point is simply that such signs and portents could fit any time or place in world history. Nationsrising and falling, war and so on are constants.

I think the point is that Israel is miraculously a nation again at this time and place in history. As far as the nations of the earth being against Israel read this...

UN, Israel & Anti-Semitism - UN Watch

savagewind · Jul 1, 2014

An important dignitary's coming is sometimes with pomp. It is possible to be at the scene of his coming and witness it, knowing he is there but never actually seeing him.

It is what Rev 1:7 might mean. "He is coming with the clouds and every eye will see IT (his coming with the clouds).

So....can anyone prove the pronoun at Rev 1:7 was written "him" because it might have been written "it".

Bunyip · Jul 1, 2014

InChrist said:
I think the point is that Israel is miraculously a nation again at this time and place in history. As far as the nations of the earth being against Israel read this...

UN, Israel & Anti-Semitism - UN Watch

What is in any way miraculous about Israel being a nation again? It was established in the middle of last century. And as I said earlier Israel has an incredible depth of support from most of the most powerful and influential nations on the planet, the nations of the Earth are NOT against Israel - the United Nations of the Earth CREATED Israel.

I understand that Israel is a new state, and was created last century by the Western Powers following the Balfour declaration - what I am asking is, how is that miraculous?

The UN is not anti-semite.It has criticised illegal activities on the part of the Israeli government and the occupation of foreign territories - but criticising Israeli foreign policy and so on does not equate to anti semitism. You can disagree with things, object, criticise, protest and dispute without that ever constituting anti semitism.

InChrist · Jul 1, 2014

Flankerl said:
Oh great you people are going to kill us again arent you?

I think it is important to distinguish who "you people" are. Many Christians who truly lived by the words of scripture willingly risked their lives to hide Jewish people, worked for the underground, and helped them escape from Hitler. There is no reason to think all people are "you people" who participated in the evil of the Holocaust.

InChrist · Jul 1, 2014

Bunyip said:
What is in any way miraculous about Israel being a nation again? It was established in the middle of last century. And as I said earlier Israel has an incredible depth of support from most of the most powerful and influential nations on the planet, the nations of the Earth are NOT against Israel - the United Nations of the Earth CREATED Israel.

I understand that Israel is a new state, and was created last century by the Western Powers following the Balfour declaration - what I am asking is, how is that miraculous?

The UN is not anti-semite.

I think it is miraculous because no other people in the history of the world has ever been dispersed throughout the countries of the earth for nearly 2000 years without losing their national, religious, and cultural identity. So for the Jewish people to retain that and say every year at Passover "next year in Jerusalem" and then to finally have their nation again in the land of Israel is nothing short of a miracle by God's hand in my perspective in fulfillment of His prophetic word.

I think the U.N is blatantly anti-Semitic.

Bunyip · Jul 1, 2014

InChrist said:
I think it is miraculous because no other people in the history of the world has ever been dispersed throughout the countries of the earth for nearly 2000 years without losing their national, religious, and cultural identity. So for the Jewish people to retain that and say every year at Passover "next year in Jerusalem" and then to finally have their nation again in the land of Israel is nothing short of a miracle by God's hand in my perspective in fulfillment of His prophetic word.

I think the U.N is blatantly anti-Semitic.

What? The Jewish people are dispersed across the Earth and always have been. They never had a homeland. Many other cultures have retained traditions and identity without a nation - the Mong, the Kurds, the Pashtu and so on.

As to the UN, no I reject that they are anti-semitic. The accusation of anti semitism is tragically over used.

The formation of the state of Isreal was an act of man, it was politics, not miracle.

james2ko · Jul 2, 2014

Pegg said:
John 14:19 "The world will behold me no more..."

Revelation 1:7 "every eye will see him..."

Can you offer an explanation between these two statements so they dont contradict one another?

These passages are complimentary. In Rev 1:7, the term "see" is in the future tense. In Joh 14:19, both instances of "see" are in the present, indicating Jesus was referring to those of the world living 2,000 + years ago and continuing up until His return in Rev 1:7, that will not physically see Him anymore. But His disciples will continue to "see/perceive" Him spiritually/mentally. At His return, both the world and His disciples will physically and supernaturally "see" (Heb 9:28) Him descending (1 Th 4:16) from the clouds.

Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear [optomai] a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Rev_1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see [optomai] Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Pegg · Jul 2, 2014

james2ko said:
These passages are complimentary. In Rev 1:7, the term "see" is in the future tense. In Joh 14:19, both instances of "see" are in the present, indicating Jesus was referring to those of the world living 2,000 + years ago and continuing up until His return in Rev 1:7, that will not physically see Him anymore. But His disciples will continue to "see/perceive" Him spiritually/mentally.

if his disciples see and perceive him mentally, then why do they need to physically see him? To a person who is spiritually awake, they can submit to Christ whether they see him physically or perceive him mentally and spiritually.
So why the need to physically see him?

And secondly, regarding our 'physically' seeing him, please take note of what is said in 1Timothy 6:16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.
How exactly do you think people are going to see someone who 'cannot' be seen by human eyes? Do you have a way of harmonizing your thoughts above with this verse?

james2ko said:
At His return, both the world and His disciples will physically and supernaturally "see" (Heb 9:28) Him descending (1 Th 4:16) from the clouds.

please take note of what is said in 1Timothy 6:16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.
How exactly do you think people are going to see someone who 'cannot' be seen by human eyes? Do you have a way of harmonizing your thoughts above with this verse?

james2ko · Jul 2, 2014

Pegg said:
if his disciples see and perceive him mentally, then why do they need to physically see him? To a person who is spiritually awake, they can submit to Christ whether they see him physically or perceive him mentally and spiritually. So why the need to physically see him?

His disciples do not "need" to see Him to believe because they walk by faith. But how much more would a disciple's faith strengthen when they do:

1Pe 1:7-8 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies goldthough your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world. 8 You love Him even though you have never seen Him. Though you do not see Him now, you trust Him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy.

The term revealed is defined as: appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation. Would the "whole world" not include His disciples? Furthermore, notice it states they [His disciples] do not see Him "now". The literal translation is "at present". The Greek adverb for "now" [arti](at present) connotes the idea of suspension. In other words, they do not see Him now, but will later!

And secondly, regarding our 'physically' seeing him, please take note of what is said in 1Timothy 6:16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen. How exactly do you think people are going to see someone who 'cannot' be seen by human eyes? Do you have a way of harmonizing your thoughts above with this verse?

1Ti 6:14-15 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,15 which He [The Father] will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Verse 15 is actually referring to God the Father who alone has immortality. It cannot be referring to Christ because He has been seen. Additionally, the verb "has" is in the present tense. By this time, Christ had already ascended to the Father as an eternal, immortal spirit being. Paul could not be implying Christ is the "only" one with immortality. Although Christ is the subject of the last clause in verse 14, there is a transition made at the beginning of verse 15 that switches the context to the Father. Some argue against this transition but a look at the word order in The Greek-English New Testament dispels this argument:

Notice how the numbered word order indicates the phrase "shall show" should be the last phrase (#6) of verse 15. When the Greek is translated correctly then the transition from Christ to The Father becomes apparent:

"...the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; Which in his own times the Blessed and only Potentate shall show" (1 Tim 6:14-15)

The Blessed and only Potentate is the one who "shall show" or set the time of Christ's appearing!

Flankerl · Jul 2, 2014

saint_frankenstein said:
Your rudeness is not needed.

But its not rude. Whenever many Christians believed that the "end was nigh" we suffered.

Its always been like that.

BruceDLimber · Jul 2, 2014

InChrist said:
I think the scriptures give insight and wisdom on how to respond to such claims....

NONE of which, however, refutes the fact that the prophecies in the Jewish and Christian scriptures WERE INDEED fulfilled in the years specified!

Nor does the Bible in any way claim that there can't also be a TRUE claimant (little as you may appreciate this fact)!

Bruce

InChrist · Jul 2, 2014

BruceDLimber said:
NONE of which, however, refutes the fact that the prophecies in the Jewish and Christian scriptures WERE INDEED fulfilled in the years specified!

Nor does the Bible in any way claim that there can't also be a TRUE claimant (little as you may appreciate this fact)!

Bruce

According to the scriptures, there will be no doubt about the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the arrival of Jesus Christ at the conclusion of a one time event period known as the Day of the Lord, nor will this be an event that only some people of certain religious groups are aware of while the rest of humanity are unaware. The scriptures portray the conditions on earth to be such as they have never been before, nor ever will be again... so extremely bad that everyone will realize they are experiencing the Day of Lord and His judgment on the earth and were He not to return no flesh would survive.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake those days will be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22

But if you want to believe the Baha'i' teaching rather than reality and the biblical revelations concerning Jesus Christ that's up to you.

Did Jesus prophecy bahaulla

nash8 · Jul 2, 2014

InChrist said:
I think it is becoming clear that God's kingdom is coming to earth soon and many of the biblical signs for the return of Jesus Christ to are in place and others are rapidly continuing to occur. Does anyone else sense the nearness of His return?

For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with His truth. Psalm 96:13

lBirth Pangs - ABC's of Prophecy

He/it's already here. Been here for a while actually.

Ingledsva · Jul 2, 2014

james2ko said:
His disciples do not "need" to see Him to believe because they walk by faith. But how much more would a disciple's faith strengthen when they do:

1Pe 1:7-8 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies goldthough your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world. 8 You love Him even though you have never seen Him. Though you do not see Him now, you trust Him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy.

The term revealed is defined as: appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation. Would the "whole world" not include His disciples? Furthermore, notice it states they [His disciples] do not see Him "now". The literal translation is "at present". The Greek adverb for "now" [arti](at present) connotes the idea of suspension. In other words, they do not see Him now, but will later!

1Ti 6:14-15 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,15 which He [The Father] will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Verse 15 is actually referring to God the Father who alone has immortality. It cannot be referring to Christ because He has been seen. Additionally, the verb "has" is in the present tense. By this time, Christ had already ascended to the Father as an eternal, immortal spirit being. Paul could not be implying Christ is the "only" one with immortality. Although Christ is the subject of the last clause in verse 14, there is a transition made at the beginning of verse 15 that switches the context to the Father. Some argue against this transition but a look at the word order in The Greek-English New Testament dispels this argument:

Notice how the numbered word order indicates the phrase "shall show" should be the last phrase (#6) of verse 15. When the Greek is translated correctly then the transition from Christ to The Father becomes apparent:

"...the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; Which in his own times the Blessed and only Potentate shall show" (1 Tim 6:14-15)

The Blessed and only Potentate is the one who "shall show" or set the time of Christ's appearing!

Yep,

and 16, which was asked about, is also only about God. This is also obvious when you look at it in the Greek.

Both 15 and 16 are about God, not Jesus, and fit when read together, as being about God.

*

spirit_of_dawn · Jul 2, 2014

InChrist said:
I think the scriptures give insight and wisdom on how to respond to such claims...

Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There! do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, Look, He is in the desert! do not go out; or Look, He is in the inner rooms! do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:23-27

Not only christian scripture, but Islamic scripture also gives strikingly similar details about the appearance of the Mahdi and not believing in imposters. Islamic scripture also speaks about the return of Jesus at about the same time as the Mahdi. The funny thing is, Baha'is claim Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of these prophecies while his traits, actions, and events surrounding him contradict all Islamic traditions about the return of the Mahdi and Jesus and presumably the Christian prophecies about the return of Jesus.

outhouse · Jul 2, 2014

InChrist said:
According to the scriptures,

There is your problem. They have never been accurate scientifically or historically.

Ya, um, I would not be holding my breath waiting and all.

So far to date, every writer or author or anyone else who claimed when he was coming, has been dead wrong.

How many hundreds or thousands of years must people blindly follow mythology as reality?

spirit_of_dawn · Jul 3, 2014

outhouse said:
There is your problem. They have never been accurate scientifically or historically.

Ya, um, I would not be holding my breath waiting and all.

So far to date, every writer or author or anyone else who claimed when he was coming, has been dead wrong.

How many hundreds or thousands of years must people blindly follow mythology as reality?

I don't know about Christianity, but in Shia Islam it has been explicitly mentioned that all those that set a date for the arrival of the Mahdi (which means the return of Jesus too) are liars and only God knows the date.

Saint Frankenstein · Jul 3, 2014

spirit_of_dawn said:
I don't know about Christianity, but in Shia Islam it has been explicitly mentioned that all those that set a date for the arrival of the Mahdi (which means the return of Jesus too) are liars and only God knows the date.

Jesus said: 36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only. - Matthew 24:36

outhouse · Jul 3, 2014

spirit_of_dawn said:
I don't know about Christianity, but in Shia Islam it has been explicitly mentioned that all those that set a date for the arrival of the Mahdi (which means the return of Jesus too) are liars and only God knows the date.

I thought there was scripture that also makes it sound like it/he was coming soon.

I believe Paul thought he would come within his lifetime.

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