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One Saviour?

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
That isn't the point however. We know when it is being used for Deity, so that is basically irrelevant. We also know when it is being used for 'other' gods, or similar Titles, because of context. You are saying a possible goddess here, show the reference(s).


No, you don't know for sure, and that is the point.


Jer 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.



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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
No, you don't know for sure, and that is the point.


Jer 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.



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This is all referening 'false' worship. Why would they use the same term throughout the Bible, 'Elohim', if it indicated false worship, what they weren't supposed to be doing? It just doesn't make sense.
In the plural form, i.e. God and the Host, we have no false worship, we have a hierarchy implied, not two deities.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Some of the messianic prophesies are:

Michah 4:3
World peace

Ezekiel 37

One uniformedly accepted by the jews king.

All the jews will come to Israel

All the jews will stay in Israel

All nations will worship one G-D

The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever.

As well as:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)


During the messianic era ALL of these prophesies will be fulilled.
"Second coming" is purely a christian invention. It's not part of the Tanach (five books of Moses, plus prophets and scriptures)

Thank you for this list. Interesting. I believe the red highlighted area is fulfilled in the fact many people use what is written by and protected by the nation of Israel, The Bible, for guidance. I know I have gone to Israel for what to believe.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
No, you don't know for sure, and that is the point.


Jer 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.



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Jews don't worship a goddess.

Prophets is often written poetically.

G-D is actually neither male nor female.

However, we do refer to G-D as a he so we have a way to refer to him other than by one of the names.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Thank you for this list. Interesting. I believe the red highlighted area is fulfilled in the fact many people use what is written by and protected by the nation of Israel, The Bible, for guidance. I know I have gone to Israel for what to believe.
It's referring to all the people. That hasn't occurred.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
CMike, I'd like to add my thanks for the trouble you went to listing these points. Give me some time and I will reply in detail!
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
CMike, In response to the first point made in #199.

I believe, from my reading of scripture, that Jesus came to save and to be King of Kings . This takes place within a time frame of about two thousand years. The reason I say this is because we read prophecies which refer to two time periods - before and after his return as King of Kings. It's important to distinguish between the two, despite the fact that they refer to the same Messiah.

Jesus actually challenges us with his own words. According to the New Testament scriptures, Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day", "Moses wrote of Me" and "David called [Me] Lord" (John 8:56; John 5:46 and Matthew 22:45). A denial of these sayings is a denial of Jesus as Christ. And, of course, everyone should be given the chance to read the scriptures and make up their own mind. He was either a liar or he was the Messiah.

Let's begin with Micah 4:3.
The prophecy of Micah is about the sin of Israel. It tells us of deliverance being brought in by Him "whose goings-forth have been of old, from everlasting". This happens only after Israel shows repentance. The events of chapter 4 have not yet taken place! As 4:1 says, 'in the last days', then verse three says, 'And [after the events of verse 1,2] he shall judge among many people....' The world peace is still future to us now, when 'they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:'

For Christians this is terra firma. This clearly tells us of future events, following the return of Christ.

What the New Testament tells us is 'Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.' (Revelation 1:7)

So the one crucified will be the one who returns as Messiah - to be recognized by Jews and Gentiles alike.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
CMike, in response to Ezekiel 37.

Christians would agree that all these things take place when the rule of Christ is finally acknowledged.
Let's not forget, however, that Jesus called HIMSELF the Temple.
John 2: 18-21, 'Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.'
Confirmation of Christ as the spiritual temple is found in 2 Corinthians 6:16;
'And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.' [Notice JWs, it is God that dwells in the 'born again' believer!]
This passage clearly shows that the everlasting temple is a spiritual temple, not one built of stone. We should beware the temple rebuilt of stone, for it is there that the son of perdition will set himself up as God!! (See Thessalonians Ch.2)
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Jews don't worship a goddess.

Prophets is often written poetically.

G-D is actually neither male nor female.

However, we do refer to G-D as a he so we have a way to refer to him other than by one of the names.


Jews originally had a Goddess, and obviously, from the texts, continued to worship her, even while the ONE GOD movement continually slaughtered them for it.


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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
No, you don't know for sure, and that is the point.


Jer 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
This is all referening 'false' worship. Why would they use the same term throughout the Bible, 'Elohim', if it indicated false worship, what they weren't supposed to be doing? It just doesn't make sense.
In the plural form, i.e. God and the Host, we have no false worship, we have a hierarchy implied, not two deities.


LOL! It is only "false" to the Newer ONE GOD movement.


We know for a fact that the Hebrew originally had a Goddess and a God.


The Bible tells us that the ONE GOD movement murdered these people that wanted to keep their traditional Gods, - over and over. They murdered to put ONE GOD into power.

The Bible tells us this.


And of course - later ONE GOD Christians murdered to force ONE GOD into power.


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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
CMike, the remainder of the prophecies I have no problem with, when one remembers that many have yet to be fulfilled in Christ.
My only real sticking point is the Temple seen as a physical building. It is described in great detail in Ezekiel 40, and was built as an earthly type of Christ. Maybe you should look closely at Revelation 21:9-27. This is a description of the holy Jerusalem, described in the same terms as was the temple. Yet, what does it say? - 'And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.' (Rev 21:22.)
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
CMike, in response to Ezekiel 37.

Christians would agree that all these things take place when the rule of Christ is finally acknowledged.
Let's not forget, however, that Jesus called HIMSELF the Temple.
John 2: 18-21, 'Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.'
Confirmation of Christ as the spiritual temple is found in 2 Corinthians 6:16;
'And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.' [Notice JWs, it is God that dwells in the 'born again' believer!]
This passage clearly shows that the everlasting temple is a spiritual temple, not one built of stone. We should beware the temple rebuilt of stone, for it is there that the son of perdition will set himself up as God!! (See Thessalonians Ch.2)


Later Christians writings, changing a real Temple into a Spiritual Temple, mean nothing to the Jews.


The Christians knew the prophecies, the Temple was not restored with Jesus - So - we end up with a story saying Jesus is the Temple - and a three day rising.

If you read the verses he pointed out - it is obviously meant to be a real Temple. Jesus doesn't have arches and courtyards for singers.


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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
CMike,
The scriptural confirmation that Jesus is the Messiah are spread throughout the Tanakh, both as types and specific prophecies. Here are just a few.

Someone special is to bruise the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15)
He will descend from Abraham (Genesis 22:18)
From the tribe of Judah (Genesis 22:18)
A child was to be born (Isaiah 9:6)
Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14)
At the appearance of a star (Numbers 24:17)
God with us (Isaiah 7:14)
Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matt.2:6)
Adoration of the Magi (Isaiah 60:3; Matt. 2:11)
Death of innocents (Jeremiah 31:15; Matt 2:17,18)
Flight into Egypt (Hosea 11:1, Matt. 2:15)
Jesus' meekness and gentleness (Isaiah 42:2; Matt 11:29)
Entry into Jerusalem on a colt (Zech. 9:9; Psalm 8:2; Matt. 21:4)
Betrayed by a disciple (Psalm 41:9)


And what about the crucifixion?
Isaiah 53:3 'rejected of men'
verse 7: 'a lamb to the slaughter' (Matt. 27:12,13)
verse 8: Dying (See Daniel 9:26)
The inner experience of crucifixion, and deliverance (Psalm 22;)
30 pieces of silver as price paid (Zechariah 11:12,13; Matt 27:3-10)
Taken to tribunals (Isaiah 53:8; John 18:24,28)
False witnesses (Psalm 27:12; Matt. 26:59,60)
Scourged and spat on (Isaiah 1:6; Matt:26:67; Matt:27:26-30)
Reckoned with criminals, and forgiving his murderers (Isaiah 53:12; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:34)
Mocked by passers-by (Psalm 22:6-8; Matt.27:39-44)
Soldiers parting his garments (Psalm 22:18 ; John 19:23,24)
Given vinegar to drink ( Psalm 69:21; John 19:28,29)
'My God, My God' cry (Psalm 22:1; Matt.27:46)
Dying words (Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46)
The Lamb without bones broken (Exodus 12:46; John 19:32-37)
Buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9; Matt. 27:57-60)
He will not see corruption (Psalm 16:10,11)
The spirit was to be poured out on all flesh (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17)

And one of the most remarkable of prophecies, Isaiah 61, partially quoted by Jesus in Nazareth at the synagogue. (Luke 4:16)
Notice from the account in Luke that he stops in the middle of a sentence in verse 2. He is saying that he is the Messiah. [The film 'Jesus of Nazareth' gets this ALL wrong!!] He stops before the words,'and the day of vengeance'. Why? Because that day had not come. The day of the Lord was still future. It is still future to us today!!
This confirms the belief that Jesus is both our Saviour and our future Judge!!
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
CMike,
The scriptural confirmation that Jesus is the Messiah are spread throughout the Tanakh, both as types and specific prophecies. Here are just a few.............

I'm going on vacation so I will have to let CMike or others have at this.

All I can say at this juncture, and with all due respect, is :facepalm::facepalm:.

Beginning with your misread of Isaiah 7:14 to....

I can't believe you are serious. But like I said, I'm going on vacation and I will leave a response up to what I trust are more than capable hands.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Jews originally had a Goddess, and obviously, from the texts, continued to worship her, even while the ONE GOD movement continually slaughtered them for it.


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Just read the Bible. You won't find this concept, except may be in Christianity. Backsliders worshipped various false gods/goddesses, it means nothing.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Just read the Bible. You won't find this concept, except may be in Christianity. Backsliders worshipped various false gods/goddesses, it means nothing.


I did read the Bible - and obviously I did find it - in many places. LOL!


It is rather funny - you wrote - "backsliders worshiped." Apparently you don't understand that means going back to their previous religious beliefs.


Both history and the BIBLE - tells us they did.


So why do you keep repeating this bull?


Have you bothered to read the books like Kings, etc., that tell of the Kings, and the people, re-setting up the Goddess in the Temples, - then the people, king, and priests are killed - and a new King and priests set up? OVER - and OVER, and OVER?

The Bible verses that I posted - told you that - they the people - their fathers (history) - the Kings, and Princes, worshiped the Goddess.

It does not matter that the new ONE GOD order thought they were wrong, and continually murdered them.


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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I'm going on vacation so I will have to let CMike or others have at this.

All I can say at this juncture, and with all due respect, is :facepalm::facepalm:.

Beginning with your misread of Isaiah 7:14 to....

I can't believe you are serious. But like I said, I'm going on vacation and I will leave a response up to what I trust are more than capable hands.


I know! It is just strange how they keep reading crap that isn't there, into Isaiah.



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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I know! It is just strange how they keep reading crap that isn't there, into Isaiah.



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But as Christians use it, it is there. They're attributing Immanuel's name as a title, to Jesus -- (really any son of God). We do the same with John the Baptist, calling him Elijah; and with Israel, whose name God described to Jacob; and with various other names and titles. The historical names and events are reused to describe current events, and people.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
But as Christians use it, it is there. They're attributing Immanuel's name as a title, to Jesus -- (really any son of God). We do the same with John the Baptist, calling him Elijah; and with Israel, whose name God described to Jacob; and with various other names and titles. The historical names and events are reused to describe current events, and people.



Just one problem with that, we know Immanuel is Isaiah's son.


They are trying to misuse verses that are about him, not some future Jesus.



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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Just one problem with that, we know Immanuel is Isaiah's son.


They are trying to misuse verses that are about him, not some future Jesus.


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No; they weren't trying to misuse the verses. They were reusing/reapplying them. The authors knew what they were referring to, and so did the Jews they were teaching.

They didn't quote from their own Scriptures, without reading it. Everyone knew Isaiah had a son, named Immanuel. The meaning of the name, and the significance of the original promise from God, is being reapplied.
 
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