The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

CG Didymus said:

Where is the parable in Thomas touching the wound?

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You're extrapolating: the Bible DOES NOT say Thomas actually touched it--only that he was INVITED to.


Bruce

CG Didymus said:

Baha'u'llah claims that he is the return of every "promised" one of every religion. That includes all the big ones like Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and, of course, Christianity. They don't say he came as the same physical person that was promised, but that he is the return in a metaphorical sense. They, the Baha'is, teach that all religions came from the one true God. And, they explain that the different religions were like the different grades in school... 1st grade, 2nd grade, etc. After we, that is humanity, "graduated" from one level, God sent another prophet or "manifestation" to teach us the new things necessary for an "ever advancing" civilization.

It kind of sounds good, in a way, but I don't see it. The religions are all so different. Maybe there are similarities between some religions, but I don't see how all of them "progress" smoothly to the next religion. Plus, it's hard for me to see how they could have all come from the same source. Yet, the Baha'i Faith says they do. Naturally, part of this progression includes that we recognize that the Baha'i Faith has brought new teachings from the one true God that are necessary to bring peace and unity to the world. Which would be nice, but is what they say true? Do you buy it? Do the prophecies in your religion point to the Baha'i Faith as their fulfillment? Is your religion merely one of the many parts of the long chain of progressive spiritual teachings?

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Progressive revelation to me seems to mean nothing more than picking the parts of various religious texts that you like, and discarding the parts you don't like. Heck, I can do that, and I'm not even religious.

BruceDLimber said:

You're extrapolating: the Bible DOES NOT say Thomas actually touched it--only that he was INVITED to.


Bruce

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John 20:26-28

…26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"…

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Oh my God! You're right! I've assumed he actually did what Jesus told him to do. Therefore, you must be right that Jesus didn't rise physically from the dead. The empty tomb? What about that? Someone stole the body? When he says that he's not a ghost but has flesh and bone? What's going on there? Oh yeah, I remember, that's figurative. Everything contrary to what Christians say they believe that you don't believe is figurative. You know what forget it. I'm joining Triumphant_Loser religion. It makes much more sense.

Triumphant_Loser said:

Progressive revelation to me seems to mean nothing more than picking the parts of various religious texts that you like, and discarding the parts you don't like. Heck, I can do that, and I'm not even religious.

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What would be left of all the religions if we did that?

Triumphant_Loser said:

Progressive revelation to me seems to mean nothing more than picking the parts of various religious texts that you like, and discarding the parts you don't like.

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What you overlook is that in addition to having fully 200 volumes of its own scripture, the Baha'i Faith introduces many new concepts and teachings, such as the prohibition of slavery--something permitted in the earlier religions--, as well as a number of lesser new teachings.

Peace,

Bruce

BruceDLimber said:

What you overlook is that in addition to having fully 200 volumes of its own scripture, the Baha'i Faith introduces many new concepts and teachings, such as the prohibition of slavery--something permitted in the earlier religions--, as well as a number of lesser new teachings.

Peace,

Bruce

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I would agree with you completely that the Baha'i Faith has better and more up to date religious teachings. But, as far as progressions go, all religions do update themselves to better fit the modern world. It just doesn't seem like the source for the differing religions is One Supreme God. It seems more like people in different times and places and making things up as they go. They make rules for people to live by. They try and explain what life is all about, and all the other hard questions. I definitely see a connection between Hindu, Jain, Buddhism. But they are so very different than Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Christianity, as believed and practiced by many Christians, doesn't need more revelation. They have Jesus. He saved them from the death penalty of sin and nothing else really matters... that is, if what they say is true.

The Baha'i Faith comes along and offers a religion that does away with all the old doctrines and dogmas of the old religions and gives them something new. But, part of the new things does require a "true believer" in one of the other religions to change everything they believed to be true. You sound as if you are saying that a lot of the beliefs in these other religions aren't true and not in the original teaching or they were misinterpreted. I don't see that. It seems like each religion has a totally different spiritual reality.

The easier examples I've mentioned before are reincarnation and the many Gods of Hinduism. The other big one is the Christians that have Jesus as being part of a three in one Godhead, plus being the "Savior" from sin and death and the deception of The Satan. And, the most important thing, his bodily resurrection from the dead. If all you said was that there are similarities between all religions, I'd agree. But in essential teachings about what is truth, all of them are saying different things. So that's not school grades. That's different curriculum with different textbooks taking their followers in different spiritual directions.

BruceDLimber said:

But very simply, that's because each was for a different Age.

And as the Baha'i scriptures state [paraphrasing]:

"The solution in one Age can never be the same as that in another."

Peace,

Bruce

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The basics of what happens to people after death, whether or not they reincarnate, is not a "social" changeable teaching. Who God is, One, three in one, or many, is not something that should change from religion to religion and from age to age. Basic truths about spiritual reality is different in each religion. Why is that?

Triumphant_Loser said:

Progressive revelation to me seems to mean nothing more than picking the parts of various religious texts that you like, and discarding the parts you don't like. Heck, I can do that, and I'm not even religious.

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You know the more I think about what you said, the more I realize how little from the religions from India and the Far East are really included in the Baha'i Faith. Taoism, Shinto, Jain, along with Hinduism and Buddhism aren't really that important in the "progression".

What is important is Judaism and Islam. The Baha'is have tons of laws very similar to the laws found in Judaism and Islam. But how does Christianity fit into that progression? They believe Jesus came to save them from the "curse" of the Law.

To my knowledge spiritual teachings (as opposed to social teachings) remain constant, human alterations and interpretations omitted.


Bruce

BruceDLimber said:

Why ask me? I'm not--and have never been--one.



The changing needs of humanity in each Age.

As the Baha'i scriptures say:

"CVI.
"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem.... The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require."
--Gleanings, CVI, p. 213

Peace,

Bruce

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I believe this refers to the law. For instance laws against eating shellfish may not be neessary if there is an institution checking the shellfish for disease.

BruceDLimber said:

Ah--but that's your interpretation. Others differ.



We see "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" as fitting that criterion given that it's in the present tense only, and doesn't at all say He will likewise be at some other, future time.

In other Ages, each Divine Messenger fulfilled this same role, which is precisely why most if not all Their scriptures contain similar statements!

For example:

This was originally intended as part of an informal quiz, the goal of which is to determine which religion said which statement (I'll post the answers later). Enjoy!

THE ONLY WAY​

1. “This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.”
2. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
3. “Whoso seeks guidance elsewhere, God will lead him astray.”
4. “He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from all that is on earth and seek none else but Me.”
5. “Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter.”
6. “There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of Heaven, of light and of purity, of the infinite Creator.”

Peace,

Bruce

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I believe the text does not say so that leaves context. Just saying that one has a different speculation doesn't cut it. If the speculation is out of context it does not have much valitity.

I believe Jesus is speaking of His sovreignty wwhich continues into the Kingdom of God. So the present tense is an ongoing present tense concurrent with His existence.

I don't believe any come close.

I believe saying it doesn't validate it.

CG Didymus said:

That part for starters. Which part of Jesus' teachings is perfect? The part when you believe on him and get saved from eternal hell fire? The part when we are born sinners and can do nothing to save ourselves? The part when his followers get filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues and talk about how Jesus rose from the dead? How he says "I Jesus" am coming back? How there is a devil/satan and a lake of fire? Anyway, you know, all the things fundy Christians say that the Bible clearly teaches. And then they ask..."Which part of this is difficult to understand?

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I find Jesus to be perfect for me in my time. How about you Diddy?

Muffled said:

I find Jesus to be perfect for me in my time. How about you Diddy?

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Unfortunately, I like and dislike parts of all religions. So I question all of them. But, because I've been part of several religions and seen them from the inside, I know they work and appear true for the believer. What is difficult for me is that I don't believe enough in any of them to give myself over to believing one over another right now.

Lest I forget, I should post the answers to the quiz (which in fact has a bunch of other section/topics as well).

Here they are:

ANSWERS

to Comparative Religion Quote Quiz


THE ONLY WAY
1. Buddhism, Dhammapada 20:274
2. Christianity, John 14:6
3. Islam, Imam ‘Ali Hadith
4. Baha’i, Gleanings, §45, p. 99
5. Hinduism, Bhagavad Gita 18:66
6. Zoroastrianism, Gathas, Yasna 45:5 and 51:2


Bruce

BruceDLimber said:

Lest I forget, I should post the answers to the quiz (which in fact has a bunch of other section/topics as well).

Here they are:

ANSWERS

to Comparative Religion Quote Quiz


THE ONLY WAY
1. Buddhism, Dhammapada 20:274
2. Christianity, John 14:6
3. Islam, Imam ‘Ali Hadith
4. Baha’i, Gleanings, §45, p. 99
5. Hinduism, Bhagavad Gita 18:66
6. Zoroastrianism, Gathas, Yasna 45:5 and 51:2


Bruce

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Hey, not bad, I got one out six right.

Shalom Aleicham, As Salaam Alaykum, Allah u Abha,


Actually, I would say a lot of religions have some form of progressive revalation, Mormonism, Buddhism always had new Buddhas. The Bahá'í Faith is not a new idea.

Bahá'u'lláh did not come back as Isa (as) and all the other prophets "metaphorically), we believe that each prophet is another attribute of Allah (swt). Just because we say the Bible is metaphorical doesn't mean everything is.

So, hope this answered your question.


- Mírzá Yusuf Ḥusayn- ' Alí
- ميرزا ​​يوسف حسين علي
- وسف حسین علی میرزا
- מירזה יוסוף חוסיין-עלי

How do I change my signature :s

CG Didymus said:

Hey, not bad, I got one out six right.

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(Clearly better than zero.)

BruceDLimber said:

(Clearly better than zero.)

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Was it an open book test? I think I would have done better.

BruceDLimber said:

][/SIZE]

"CVI.
"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem.... The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require."
--Gleanings, CVI, p. 213

Peace,

Bruce

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But the world is still so sick. And a big part of it is because of religion. So instead of a progression of religion, do we need surgery to remove religious cancer cells?