New proseltysing tactic

saint_frankenstein said:

Since I see hell as willful separation from God, I don't necessarily see it as eternal. I hold hope that all may be reconciled to God. So I'd honestly rather go to hell than be taken out of existence because there might still be a chance. But I believe that our souls are immortal and reject the harsh JW nonsense so I'm not worried about it.

Lol. I'm from San Francisco originally. Maybe I'll pay you a visit one day.

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The Catholic Church teaches that Hell is eternal though.

Catechism of the Catholic Church said:

1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

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CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1057

ZooGirl02 said:

The Catholic Church teaches that Hell is eternal though.



CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1057

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And he's not allowed to have a different opinion?

Jehovah's Witnesses BELIEVE everyone but the Jehovah's Witnesses are more or less bad.

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If that were true, we wouldn't bother to go searching for the deserving ones...we'd just let them alone with their choices.

That isn't what Christ told us to do.

What would Jesus say?

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He's already said it....Matt 28:19, 20

"Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (NLT)

"Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, *I* am with you all the days, until the completion of the age." (Darby)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NRSV)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (NASB)


Seems Jesus was telling us to "GO" out into all nations and find people and teach them to be disciples. Not rocket science is it? :no:

Kalidas said:

I have been told by a friend that many JW's view hell as that pit outside the city walls where the bodies were burnt. As in when we die you either go to heaven or your are burned away from existence, I guess that is a little better than being tortured for all eternity.

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The "pit" outside Jerusalem was actually the Valley of Hinnom where apostate Jews in ancient times adopted the pagan practice of sacrificing their children in the fire to Molech. (Jer 7:31; 32:35) To stop the practice, the valley was turned into the city's garbage dump where the city's refuse, the carcasses of dead animals, and the bodies of executed criminals were cast there for incineration. It was referred to as "Gehenna"

Jesus used "Gehenna" as a symbol of death with no resurrection. Because the Jews believed in resurrection back to life on earth under Messiah's kingdom, for those who did not have a memorial tomb with their name and family connection inscribed, it was felt that God would not remember them if they were cast into "Gehenna". The flames were kept burning night and day by the addition of brimstone (sulfur) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off. Hence Jesus graphic description.

It was a symbol of eternal death, not eternal torture.

God is not a fiend. Please don't judge the Bible by Christendom's beliefs.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

But not the example of Paul:

Romans 13:1-2:


The Bible really is the Big Book of Multiple Choice, isn't it?

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its not a multiple choice.

The teaching of Jesus was clear "pay back Caesar's things to Caesar but Gods things to God"

and Paul himself also lived by this principle. He was ordered to stop preaching by the authorities, but he refused because he was doing something commanded by God.

But in general, yes, we obey the authorities as Paul said we should. We just dont obey them as the ultimate authority.... Gods requirements must be met above mans.

JayJayDee said:

The "pit" outside Jerusalem was actually the Valley of Hinnom where apostate Jews in ancient times adopted the pagan practice of sacrificing their children in the fire to Molech. (Jer 7:31; 32:35) To stop the practice, the valley was turned into the city's garbage dump where the city's refuse, the carcasses of dead animals, and the bodies of executed criminals were cast there for incineration. It was referred to as "Gehenna"

Jesus used "Gehenna" as a symbol of death with no resurrection. Because the Jews believed in resurrection back to life on earth under Messiah's kingdom, for those who did not have a memorial tomb with their name and family connection inscribed, it was felt that God would not remember them if they were cast into "Gehenna". The flames were kept burning night and day by the addition of brimstone (sulfur) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off. Hence Jesus graphic description.

It was a symbol of eternal death, not eternal torture.

God is not a fiend. Please don't judge the Bible by Christendom's beliefs.

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I did say it was a better idea than the "standard" Christian idea.

Sorry this is so long. I will break it up. I wanted to address your responses.

Kalidas said:

So first let me begin by saying this: You show a correlation to the Deities and the angels, despite the fact that the deities are Gods and the angels are servants.

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The Bible says that not all angels are servants. The rebel angels are by no means servants of God. They serve a different master and they pretend to be gods, like their leader. Greek mythology is founded on the Biblical account of the "gods" coming to earth and behaving very badly. The demi-gods well picture the monstrous children produced when angels materialized and cohabited with human women. The original stories do not come from just human imagination...why would they? They may have been embellished, but the kernel is the truth.

But let us look at this. The Rig Veda has been around since 1500 BCE it has been thought and I would agree that thse ideas were spread by word of mouth for about 1000 years BEFORE this. Babylon was founded in 1896 BCE. It was "founded" as a settlement in 2300 BCE, but did not become a full fledge emprei till much later.

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According to the Bible, original Babel was a city built by Nimrod as a monument to his own importance. He was the first rebel after the flood who wanted to make a great name for imself; Noah's great grandson. He features in a lot of mythology.

Using the dates provided by the Bible, the flood occurred 1656 years after the creation of Adam. That is over 1600 years to lose their spiritual identity.
100 years after the flood, Nimrod built Babel. Nimrod was describes as "a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah". (Gen 10:8-10) His cities were built as an act of defiance and his status as a deity was imposed upon him by his mother. Thus she became "the mother of God"....and the rest as they say, is history. Mother goddess worship in some form is found in all ancient religions (including Hinduism) and even found its way into Catholicism.

All false religious ideas came from Babel (or Babylon.) The same core of beliefs run through all them....immortality of a separated soul or consciousness at death, trinities or multiplicities of gods, and a hell of eternal torture for the wicked....heavenly bliss for the righteous. No matter what religion you subscribe to, these features run through all of them, even Christendom. They have a common origin. This is why all false worship is called in the Bible, "Babylon the great".

but lets back track for a second. Rigveda WRITTEN 1500 BCE

the Torah (the old testament as you would know it) 600 BCE, almost 1000 years LATER. Even if we said that the Jews were spreading this word of mouth for a thousand years that would mean it would have been created around the time of the Rigveda was WRITTEN.

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Faithful worshippers of Jehovah apparently did not need a book of written laws and scripture (or there is no mention of any) until Abraham's descendants were formed into one nation after their release from slavery in Egypt.

It matters little when the word was written but when it was first obeyed. God's faithful Patriarchs were the spiritual heads of their own extended families and they kept God's laws even though they were not yet written in a book.

The oldest bible was written in the first century CE, 1500 years AFTER the Rige Veda. Lets give the bible the same treatment 1000 years word of mouth, still late by 500 years. So tell me again who got the idea of angels and Gods from whom?

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The Bible has two parts as you know. But the "scriptures" in Jesus' day were the Hebrew writings. (2 Tim 3:16, 17) The NT writings were about the promised "seed" of Gen 3:15, who was not God incarnate, but a spirit being sent to earth to redeem fallen humanity.

Moses was used to write Genesis in 1513 BCE. He takes us back to the creation of the universe. These events pre-date the actual writings by over 2,500 years, (or even billions of years in the case of creating the universe) so the original story was carried and embellished by the descendants of the flood survivors into all the nations where God eventually forced them to scatter. (Gen 11:1-9) This explains their similarities.

So now that THAT is out of the way, to your topic of "bloodshed" in Hinduism. I did a search for "Hindu Holy wars" the only thing that came up were the wars in which the Pakistani Muslims invaded India to forcefully spread Islam to India, and they defended themself.In case you are wondering YES I am in favor of self defense.

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I never said that Hindus fought "holy wars", but that they will fight them if they see that there is a need to shed blood for a righteous cause. God's ancient people fought wars too, but only with the sanction of their God to defend their God-given land. It was a clearly defined area of land, gifted to them for a time and purpose.

"Christians" have no such sanction. That is because we no longer have a clearly defined 'piece of land'....Christians have no earthly nation to whom they owe allegiance. (John 18:36) We are citizens of God's heavenly kingdom and it supports no earthly kingdom. We will not take up arms to fight anyone for purely political ideals.

Members of Christendom's churches, on the other hand, will support whatever nation they inhabit, and will fight even other "Christians" of the same faith to do so. (Such as in WW1 & 2)
This is against everything Jesus taught. (1 John 4:20, 21)

About these warrior aspects of the deities, I happen to worship one. Kali Maa. She has the most gruesome iconography of any of the deities. Around her neck she wears a garland of heads, her waist is covered by a skirt of arms she formed in the midst of battle(quite the seamstress huh ) in one hand she holds the head of her fallen opponent Raktibisha, her mouth is red from the drunkenness of demonic blood.To the ignorant(I mean not knowing, not like you are an idiot) she appears ghastly and evil, but this is because people don't see the symbolism.

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The Bible has a lot of symbolism too. Though my God is not represented in such a gruesome way. His judgments are swift and final. He is the giver of life and can take it back if he sees that we are unworthy of keeping it. But he is never cruel or unjust, therefore his children would mirror his image. (Deut 32:4,5)

I actually don't take many of the puranic stories to be real life events, maybe they are maybe they are not I can't find evidence to say they are.....
Things such as lust, greed, selfishness, etc etc etc. there is symbolism like this in all the deity forms.

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I believe that there are real stories and parables (or illustrations) in the Bible too. But from a purely scriptural perspective, there was never a choice between heaven and hell...there was only a choice between life and death. (Deut 30:19, 20)

There is no conscious part of man that survives death. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
That means that all of the inhabitants of the spirit realm mentioned in the scriptures, are spirit beings, both good and evil, none of which were formerly humans. So no being in the heavenly realm had been human except Jesus. He was a spirit being before and after his earthly mission.

Back to the topic at hand. I thank you for understanding my heart has found a place that it is happy with and I appreciate the kindness you show.

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We all need to respect each other. This is not a matter of forcing people to listen. It is to us offering many opportunities for people to accept God's message of salvation.

We are sorry if we get up people's noses....that is not why we keep calling.
We have a wonderful hope for the future that does not require us to die in order to attain it. We are promised salvation through the end times and on into a cleansed earth, much the same as Noah stepped out of the ark for a new beginning.

We see only one means of salvation, like Noah had only one ark. Everyone outside that vessel perished.
Jesus said it would happen again. (Matt 24:36-39) We are taking him at his word and trying to give people the opportunity to listen and to be saved. There is room on board our 'ark' for many more.

No I was not given bad press about JW, honestly you all gave yourself bad press in my eyes. It is your very action of proselytizing that did it. I saw that and ran away fast, I am adamantly against that way of spreading "the word". to your point that JW's never want to hurt, you should maybe send that reminder to the JW that felt it important to remind me that my sons death was my fault because I would not except Jesus, I reminded him that a fist really hurts when it plummets into your nose. All Religions have those people that harm others, you JW's are no different.

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What Witness would say such a thing!!!!??? That is definitely NOT something we would tell anyone, simply because we do not believe that.

JW's are not immune to tragedy just because we believe in Jesus. We suffer along with everyone else. Look at Job. To suggest otherwise sounds more like a fundamentalist Baptist or some such other extreme group. We hold no extreme views. Nor do we live a 'charmed' life. Our beliefs might be different to Christendom's, simple and logical and most importantly, all fully supported by the Bible.

Are you certain that it was a JW who told you that? Did you misunderstand what he said? Quite frankly, I am speechless. Any wonder you hold animosity towards our work.

Also your answer still has not helped me finish my question. god asks you to spread the word because of the evilness that is keeping people away from God? Why does God allow this to persist? And again why does he need messengers? Is he not capable without you?

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Yes, God is very capable of doing anything he wants! With us or without us. It says in the scriptures that if humans wouldn't sound his warning, then he would make the stones cry out. (Luke 19:36-40) Would people listen to stones? Perhaps, if they started talking now....but what if they had always spoken? Would we not just take their voice for granted and choose to ignore them? It is human nature to ignore whatever does not fit in with our own view of things. No matter what the source is, we want the freedom to make up our own minds. That is what God gives us. And he has never needed stones.

The point of our witnessing is to inform people about the wider view. That includes, why we are here, what we are doing with this gift of life, how we interact with one another, take care of the planet, and where our actions are ultimately taking us.

I have chosen the Bible as my source of information, but you may have chosen another source that put you on a different path for a bunch of other reasons.
This is the freedom God grants to all of us. At the end of the day, we all follow the desires of our own heart and this will determine our future.

Peace to you Kalidas

JayJayDee said:

If that were true, we wouldn't bother to go searching for the deserving ones...we'd just let them alone with their choices.

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It is true because the people you find will ALL become Jehovah's Witnesses. You are finding them to MAKE them Jehovah's Witnesses.

A person's righteousness depends on what they are are the end. No?

Matthew 24:13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved NWT

He's already said it....Matt 28:19, 20

"Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (NLT)

"Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, *I* am with you all the days, until the completion of the age." (Darby)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NRSV)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (NASB)

Seems Jesus was telling us to "GO" out into all nations and find people and teach them to be disciples. Not rocket science is it?

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How do you know for sure he did not say "having gone therefore diciples the nations"

"Having gone" sounds like HIS going. Why do you make it mean YOUR going?

Please have a taste of the word "therefore". Strong's Greek: 3767. ??? (oun) -- therefore, then, (and) so

There are four places a similar word disciple is used. In two of them Matthew 13:52, Matthew 27:57 the word is translated "become a disciple". In the other one Acts 14:21. it says (from the Greek) having proclaimed the gospel moreover the city that and having discipled many....

Having discipled many may mean they did to many people what Jesus did to people when he lived which is laying on of hands and healing them.

How do you know your translation is the right one? Please do not say again "Babylon the Great says so". Which means all the other churches who possess the Bibles you use to prove your own righteousness are going to be destroyed says you.

I asked for one more scripture that proves the one you use to prove your stance that Jesus commands the making of disciples. Please. I will lay off you if you provide Biblical proof for the making of diciples but not Matthew 28:19. Another one.

This is what I have to prove my stance.

Mark does not have Jesus saying "make disciples". Mark 16:15

And here: Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte,(convert) and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·hen′na twice as much so as yourselves.

Matthew 23:3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Did Israel's leaders command the making of disciples for Israel? No, but no law discouraged aliens from converting. That is what "disciple the nations" means.

Pegg said:

its not a multiple choice.

The teaching of Jesus was clear "pay back Caesar's things to Caesar but Gods things to God"

and Paul himself also lived by this principle. He was ordered to stop preaching by the authorities, but he refused because he was doing something commanded by God.

But in general, yes, we obey the authorities as Paul said we should. We just dont obey them as the ultimate authority.... Gods requirements must be met above mans.

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According to that passage, though, obeying God's requirements includes obeying those authorities.

You say you obey them "in general" - IOW not consistently. Why?

- do you think that they don't have divine authority? (IOW, do you think this part of the Bible is wrong?)
- do you agree that they do have divine authority but disobey them anyway? (IOW, do you wilfully disobey God?)

JayJayDee said:

I never said that Hindus fought "holy wars", but that they will fight them if they see that there is a need to shed blood for a righteous cause. God's ancient people fought wars too, but only with the sanction of their God to defend their God-given land. It was a clearly defined area of land, gifted to them for a time and purpose.

"Christians" have no such sanction. That is because we no longer have a clearly defined 'piece of land'....Christians have no earthly nation to whom they owe allegiance. (John 18:36) We are citizens of God's heavenly kingdom and it supports no earthly kingdom. We will not take up arms to fight anyone for purely political ideals.

Members of Christendom's churches, on the other hand, will support whatever nation they inhabit, and will fight even other "Christians" of the same faith to do so. (Such as in WW1 & 2)
This is against everything Jesus taught. (1 John 4:20, 21)

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Those verses don't speak against war; they speak against hate. And it seems like there's a lot of hate in what you've saud in this thread.

ZooGirl02 said:

The Catholic Church teaches that Hell is eternal though.



CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1057

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I know what the Catholic Church officially teaches. You don't have to quote the Catechism to me. I've read it.

The concept of universal reconciliation is very old. Universal reconciliation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kalidas said:

And he's not allowed to have a different opinion?

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We are. Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor said that we're not bound to believe that anyone is in hell. Catholicism allows a wide range of views on things.

JayJayDee said:

Using the dates provided by the Bible, the flood occurred 1656 years after the creation of Adam. That is over 1600 years to lose their spiritual identity.
100 years after the flood, Nimrod built Babel. Nimrod was describes as "a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah". (Gen 10:8-10) His cities were built as an act of defiance and his status as a deity was imposed upon him by his mother. Thus she became "the mother of God"....and the rest as they say, is history. Mother goddess worship in some form is found in all ancient religions (including Hinduism) and even found its way into Catholicism.

All false religious ideas came from Babel (or Babylon.) The same core of beliefs run through all them....immortality of a separated soul or consciousness at death, trinities or multiplicities of gods, and a hell of eternal torture for the wicked....heavenly bliss for the righteous. No matter what religion you subscribe to, these features run through all of them, even Christendom. They have a common origin. This is why all false worship is called in the Bible, "Babylon the great".

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That is a lie that you got from that false, anti-Catholic hate screed called the Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop from the 19th century. There is no truth in that book. Are you going to use Jack Chick tracts next? Do you enjoy spreading lies about other religions? Those are claims that are usually relegated to the wild-eyed conspiracy fringe. For shame!

Is Catholicism Pagan? | Catholic Answers

JayJayDee said:

We all need to respect each other.

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Who are you trying to kid with that? You don't respect others. You insult and slander the beliefs of others in almost every post. You spread outrageous lies about other religions and don't even try to understand them!

saint_frankenstein said:

Who are you trying to kid with that? You don't respect others. You insult and slander the beliefs of others in almost every post. You spread outrageous lies about other religions and don't even try to understand them!

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The real sadness in in the fact they do not try to understand their own religion.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

According to that passage, though, obeying God's requirements includes obeying those authorities.

You say you obey them "in general" - IOW not consistently. Why?

- do you think that they don't have divine authority? (IOW, do you think this part of the Bible is wrong?)
- do you agree that they do have divine authority but disobey them anyway? (IOW, do you wilfully disobey God?)

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do they have divine authority to disobey him?

Pegg said:

do they have divine authority to disobey him?

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Does it matter? Is it your place to judge them, or is it your place to obey?

Maybe your Bible is different from mine, but the version I'm reading says to obey authorities, period. There's no asterisk saying "*unless the authority does things the Watchtower Society doesn't like."

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Does it matter? Is it your place to judge them, or is it your place to obey?

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Yes, it does matter. Do you accept the soldiers who obeyed Hitler when they were massacring innocent people?

Do you think God was pleased with their obedience to their commanding officers?

If blind obedience is what you think the bible is telling us to have, then I think you are much mistaken.