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The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

John Martin

Active Member
Wildly inaccurate interpretation of Christianity's purpose. Christianity is first and foremost about worship of Jesus/God, secularism takes a distant or even nonexistent role. You are, I presume, taking your opinion from secular 'rationalizers' who aren't part of the religion.

I am not very sure if Christianity is first and foremost worship of Jesus/God.
I think that it is first and foremost seeking the kingdom of God and its way of justice. Jesus said, 'First of all seek you the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things will be given unto you'. The kingdom of God is the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent love of neighbour. Christianity is first and foremost growing into the love of God and the love of neighbour in such a way that one experiences oneness with God and oneness with the whole of humanity and of creation. Jesus Christ ,' the Father and I are one' and 'whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me'. He was one with God and one with the whole of humanity and of creation. He was in the living in the kingdom of God and living according to its justice or morality. Jesus Christ said that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. It is smallest of all seeds.When it grows it becomes so big that the birds of the air will come and make their nests in it. It means for me, our individual consciousness has to grow into the divine consciousness in which there is a place for for all individuals and all groups.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There are two types of spiritual traditions: wisdom and prophetic...
I've heard some people say that there are many paths, but they all lead up the same spiritual mountain. But, to me, it seems more like there are many mountains, or spiritual/religious traditions, and many paths up those different mountains. But the paths have differences and the mountains have differences. Only in the most general terms does it seem that all religions are "one". But all of them a progression like different grades in school? I don't see that. People and their religious ideas progressing? Yes, I'd agree with that. But only because old religions don't make sense, not because they are a "progression" leading to the next.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I've heard some people say that there are many paths, but they all lead up the same spiritual mountain. But, to me, it seems more like there are many mountains, or spiritual/religious traditions, and many paths up those different mountains. But the paths have differences and the mountains have differences. Only in the most general terms does it seem that all religions are "one". But all of them a progression like different grades in school? I don't see that. People and their religious ideas progressing? Yes, I'd agree with that. But only because old religions don't make sense, not because they are a "progression" leading to the next.

Wildly inaccurate interpretation of Christianity's purpose. Christianity is first and foremost about worship of Jesus/God, secularism takes a distant or even nonexistent role. You are, I presume, taking your opinion from secular 'rationalizers' who aren't part of the religion.

Sorry. For limited time, I reply to both at the same time.
Every religion had same type of goals. Generally speaking, the goal of each religion may be divided in to Two: 1) creating a new man in a spiritual sense. 2) bringing order to the society.

The first goal means, bringing teachings that cause human to aquire spiritual qualities such as 'forgiveness', 'kindness', 'fairness', 'generosity', 'patience'...etc.
The second goal means, by bringing a new set of Laws (Shariah), the religion brings 'order' to society. For example by punishing thieves, adulterers, murderers and bringing and enforcing laws of marriage and others, it brings an order to a society that was in 'chaos'.

However, each religion in order to establish the two goals had to bring different 'formula'. Think of it as a sick person. As each time the disease and conditions of the person changes a different 'medicine' with a new formula is needed. Likewise, as humanity in different ages, have different conditions, and problems, with a different level of maturity and capacity, therefore each religion has teachings perfectly formulated for the humanity of its own 'Age'. Therefore Jesus said 'I am the way'. In His time, His way, was the way to the truth. His way, was the way to salvation. His way was the way to save mankind from disease of jealousy, envy, selfishness...etc. In this age, however, Baha'u'llah's way is the way to the truth and to get mankind to the 'two goals'. It is His way, to bring peace and order to the earth. It is His way, to bring salvation and save mankind from the disease of their heart, from the superstitions, materialism, fanaticism, disunity... and etc. The reason is, Baha'u'llah's teachings ate perfectly formulated to cure the problems of our Age. Jesus formulated a perfect medicine (a set of teachings) for His time. It is like 10 years ago a man had kidney problem. The doctor gave him a set of medicine specifically formulated to cure the kidney problem. Now this year, he has heart disease. Can he use the same medicine as 10 years ago? or does he need a new medicine specifically for the new condition? Then how can we expect that the medicine that Jesus or Moses, or Muhammad, or Buddha gave for their own time thousands of years ago still work for our new age, when the fact IS, this new age, has its own conditions? Which part of this is difficult to understand?
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Jesus formulated a perfect medicine (a set of teachings) for His time... Which part of this is difficult to understand?
That part for starters. Which part of Jesus' teachings is perfect? The part when you believe on him and get saved from eternal hell fire? The part when we are born sinners and can do nothing to save ourselves? The part when his followers get filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues and talk about how Jesus rose from the dead? How he says "I Jesus" am coming back? How there is a devil/satan and a lake of fire? Anyway, you know, all the things fundy Christians say that the Bible clearly teaches. And then they ask..."Which part of this is difficult to understand?
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Buddhism and Jainism do not speak of God.

As to Jainism, I couldn't say; but you're mistaken about Buddhism.

While SOME sects of Buddhism reject God, others accept Him.

I quote the Buddhist scriptures:

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move."
—(Udana 8:3)

(Sounds like God to me!)

and

"The one who does not desire anything,
"But directly knows even the uncreated;
"Not satisfied, such a one breaks off any
"Possibility for rebirth by swallowing
"What he has made. Such one is the Supreme!"
--Dhammapada 9

Buddhist scriptures also speak of gods and men.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

John Martin

Active Member
As to Jainism, I couldn't say; but you're mistaken about Buddhism.

While SOME sects of Buddhism reject God, others accept Him.

I quote the Buddhist scriptures:

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move."
—(Udana 8:3)

(Sounds like God to me!)

and

"The one who does not desire anything,
"But directly knows even the uncreated;
"Not satisfied, such a one breaks off any
"Possibility for rebirth by swallowing
"What he has made. Such one is the Supreme!"
--Dhammapada 9

Buddhist scriptures also speak of gods and men.

Peace, :)

Bruce

If it is so. It is wonderful. Jains believe infinite eternal Atmans, wheras Hinduism believes in one eternal Atman.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
That part for starters. Which part of Jesus' teachings is perfect? The part when you believe on him and get saved from eternal hell fire?
The part when we are born sinners and can do nothing to save ourselves? The part when his followers get filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues and talk about how Jesus rose from the dead? How he says "I Jesus" am coming back? How there is a devil/satan and a lake of fire? Anyway, you know, all the things fundy Christians say that the Bible clearly teaches. And then they ask..."Which part of this is difficult to understand?

These teachings were good and sufficient in previous age, not for our time. That's why it doesn't make sense much! and I shouldn't need to say, many of Jesus teachings gradually, generations after generations were misinterpreted. What you get today, in our view, is a distorted version of Jesus teachings. The religions have 'Best before date'. When their date is over, it becomes like bad food. Like a medicine that has past its date. It is no good anymore. That is why it doesn't make sense to you....but of course many keep the customs and follow the traditional beliefs, and they are free to do so. Just how I view it. ......Baha'u'llah's message is clear. In my view He says forget about the tales of the past. Forget if Jesus went to sky, or Muhammad went up, or Moses turned the stick to snake, and all these useless stories. He says pay attention to the needs of our Age. Let's be united all people, and make this world a better place for everyone. Let's bring equality of rights between all races, sex, nations, and everyone. Let's solve the problems of poverty. The earth is one country and mankind its citizens. Let's work together for the universal peace. For the education of all children...Who cares if Jesus went up there with flash and bones, and all those useless tales of the past. Now I quote some words of Baha'u'llah on these:


"Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.


We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.


Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
These teachings were good and sufficient in previous age, not for ours...
Being saved by grace from eternity in hell sounds pretty important, if true. But, Bahai's don't believe in hell and the devil like the NT teaches. They don't believe in salvation as defined by the NT. If those teachings are wrong, then the NT is wrong. Which may be, since Jesus didn't write it.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Being saved by grace from eternity in hell sounds pretty important, if true. But, Bahai's don't believe in hell and the devil like the NT teaches. They don't believe in salvation as defined by the NT. If those teachings are wrong, then the NT is wrong. Which may be, since Jesus didn't write it.
In our view, that's not what NT teaches, unless one takes everything literal in NT. Many Christians believe Heaven and Hell are spiritual states.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
In our view, that's not what NT teaches, unless one takes everything literal in NT. Many Christians believe Heaven and Hell are spiritual states.
That would be nice, but Catholics and most Protestants believe it is literal. So 2000 years of wrong teachings? Like we've talked about, the gospels say he rose literally from the dead. Were the gospel writers wrong? You say yes, so what are Christians supposed to do, stop believing in a literal resurrection?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Like we've talked about, the gospels say he rose literally from the dead.
The Bible does not say He rose 'Literally'. You are adding a word to Bible. The Bible does not say these stories are'literal'. That is just your reading and other literalists readings.


Were the gospel writers wrong?

No, the Bible writers were not wrong. They wrote many of the Biblical accounts using parables and figurative language, because this is how God had inspired them. If People take these figurative accounts literally, they are the ones that are wrong, not the Author of the Books....Just my view.


You say yes, so what are Christians supposed to do, stop believing in a literal resurrection?
It is up to them, what to do, and what they want to believe. I just give you my view.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Another question about this "progression". Woman in the second to last major religion has woman all covered up. How is that progress?

As far as I know, even in Jewish faith and Christianity, the covering of hair and private parts were already practiced, and is not limited to Islam. Moreover, if you refer to Quran, there is not such a thing that women are supposed to cover all their body....There is not even one single verse that actually orders women to cover up their hair, or to punish a woman for not covering her hair.....These are just customs from Arabs I would say. You cannot find them in the teachings of Quran.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bible does not say He rose 'Literally'. You are adding a word to Bible. The Bible does not say these stories are'literal'. That is just your reading and other literalists readings.




No, the Bible writers were not wrong. They wrote many of the Biblical accounts using parables and figurative language, because this is how God had inspired them. If People take these figurative accounts literally, they are the ones that are wrong, not the Author of the Books....Just my view.



It is up to them, what to do, and what they want to believe. I just give you my view.
Where is the parable in they went to the tomb and found it empty? Where is the parable in Thomas touching the wound? If it's wrong it is the gospel writers. Those stories about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are written as if they were real events and that is how Christians teach it.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Where is the parable in they went to the tomb and found it empty?

It can mean that, since the Reality of Jesus, was not His flesh, but was His Spirit, therefore, it is said, the tomb was empty. Because regardless if His flesh was in the tomb or not, it would still be true if it was said, 'the tomb was empty', because the Spirit of Jesus went to the Father in heaven. Essentially the Bible teaches that the Spirit is the reality of existence of men, not the physical body. Therefore if we view the stories with the eye of spirit, we see their true 'inner' meaning, as opposed to just the 'outward' meaning.


Where is the parable in Thomas touching the wound? If it's wrong it is the gospel writers. Those stories about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are written as if they were real events and that is how Christians teach it.
A metaphorical interpretation was intended in these cases in my view.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bible does not say He rose 'Literally'... The Bible does not say these stories are'literal'... (T)he Bible writers were not wrong. They wrote many of the Biblical accounts using parables and figurative language, because this is how God had inspired them. If People take these figurative accounts literally, they are the ones that are wrong, not the Author of the Books...
Luke chapter 24:33-43 says this:
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. 36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
Luke is telling about actual events. This is not a parable. This is not figurative. It could be a lie. It could be an exaggeration. It could be a hallucination, but he is presenting it as if it really took place. So for most Christians, Jesus died and came back to life, not merely in some "spiritual" way of after three days the apostles took heart and started living and preaching about the things Jesus taught them and thus brought "life" back into Christ. Now that's a good parable, but it's not what most Christians believe and teach. So since you don't believe Baha'u'llah is wrong, then is Luke wrong? After all, he was not an eyewitness. He got these reports second or third hand.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
As far as I know, even in Jewish faith and Christianity, the covering of hair and private parts were already practiced, and is not limited to Islam. Moreover, if you refer to Quran, there is not such a thing that women are supposed to cover all their body....There is not even one single verse that actually orders women to cover up their hair, or to punish a woman for not covering her hair.....These are just customs from Arabs I would say. You cannot find them in the teachings of Quran.
So isn't that an important aspect of religions? That they do "progress", because different people adapt the new religion to fit in with their culture. But then, the religion changes from anything that could be said to have been the "original" teachings. If there ever was such a thing as "original" teachings. And, if there ever was real, historical prophet/founders of those religions.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Woman [sic] in the second to last major religion has woman all covered up. How is that progress?

For the record, IOV that would be the THIRD to last major religion!

And in any case, that's an entirely manmade concept: the Qur'an contains no such teaching!

Bruce
 
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