Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
I am following you so far, and have a comment or two, but before I express myself, do you think that you and I inherit this state of sin from Adam's fall?
Regards,
Scott
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Original Sin Fact or Fiction?
- Thread starter Popeyesays
- Start date
I am following you so far, and have a comment or two, but before I express myself, do you think that you and I inherit this state of sin from Adam's fall?
Regards,
Scott
Judgement Day
Active Member
I agree that the concept of original sin is quite injustice and doesnt represent the attribute of God as being the most just. If I were a just ruler, I would not make innocent people to be responsible for the action of others. If you do something wrong, you yourself needs to be held accountable. This is justice.
Super Universe
Defender of God
Squirt said:
If you don't have an open mind I would not recommend reading the Urantia book but there is a very sizable and interesting section on Jesus that goes into detail about His life on the earth and about his travels to far away places not mentioned in the bible.
But don't take it as fact. I would guess that you believe in the Old Testament though? It raises these questions:
Cane kills his brother because of jealousy over a sacrifice? Perhaps that was the final straw, Urantia says they were half brothers because of Eve's infidelity with the humans so this would better explain the anger they held toward each other.
Cane is worried someone would kill him? According to the Old Testament there is no one else so who is going to kill him? Urantia book explains that there were many human tribes loyal to the Adamites and many sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.
The Old Testament says that God punished all women because of Eve's disloyalty whereas the Urantia book says that Eve's larger brain capacity led to an immediate increase in skull size that is difficult to pass through the female human's birth canal.
I would also add that no one should ever be afraid of any information. Read the Koran and you will learn a great deal about the Old Testament as well. You will be surprised to learn that they tell the same story.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"The Old Testament says that God punished all women because of Eve's disloyalty whereas the Urantia book says that Eve's larger brain capacity led to an immediate increase in skull size that is difficult to pass through the female human's birth canal. "
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I would also add that no one should ever be afraid of any information. Read the Koran and you will learn a great deal about the Old Testament as well. You will be surprised to learn that they tell the same story."
I know the Qur'an does not discuss skull size in newborns.
Cain is not mentioned in the Qur'an even once. The only mention he gets is in Rumi"s work (often called the Persian Qur'an). Abel is mentioned ONCE in Rumi's Mishnavi, not at all in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an mentions the story of Cain and Abel without naming them:
"' Recite to them the story of the two sons of Adam; truly when they offered an offering and it was accepted from one of them, and was not accepted from the other, that one said, 'I will surely kill thee he said, 'God only accepts from those who fear. If thou dost stretch forth to me thine hand to kill me, I will not stretch forth mine hand to kill thee; verily, I fear God the Lord of the worlds; verily, I wish that thou mayest draw upon thee my sin and thy sin, and be of the fellows of the Fire, for that is the reward of the unjust.' But his soul allowed him to slay his brother, and he slew him, and in the morning he was of those who lose. And God sent a crow to scratch in the earth and show him how he might hide his brother's shame, he said, 'Alas, for me! Am I too helpless to become like this crow and hide my brother's shame?' and in the morning he was of those who did repent.
For this cause have we prescribed to the children of Israel that whoso kills a soul, unless it be for another soul or for violence in the land, it is as though he had killed men altogether; but whoso saves one, it is as though he saved men altogether. Our apostles came to them with manifest signs; then, verily, many of them did after that commit excesses in the earth. The reward of those who make war against God and His Apostle, and strive after violence in the earth, is only that they shall be slaughtered or crucified, or their hands cut off and their feet on alternate sides, or that they shall be banished from the land;- that is a disgrace for them in this world, and for them in the next is mighty woe; save for those who repent before ye have them in your power, for know ye that God is forgiving, merciful. O ye who believe! fear God and crave the means to approach Him, and be strenuous in His way, haply ye will prosper then. Verily, those who disbelieve, even though they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like thereof with it, to offer as a ransom from the punishment of the resurrection day, it would not be accepted from them; but for them is grievous woe."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)
Regards,
Scott
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I would also add that no one should ever be afraid of any information. Read the Koran and you will learn a great deal about the Old Testament as well. You will be surprised to learn that they tell the same story."
I know the Qur'an does not discuss skull size in newborns.
Cain is not mentioned in the Qur'an even once. The only mention he gets is in Rumi"s work (often called the Persian Qur'an). Abel is mentioned ONCE in Rumi's Mishnavi, not at all in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an mentions the story of Cain and Abel without naming them:
"' Recite to them the story of the two sons of Adam; truly when they offered an offering and it was accepted from one of them, and was not accepted from the other, that one said, 'I will surely kill thee he said, 'God only accepts from those who fear. If thou dost stretch forth to me thine hand to kill me, I will not stretch forth mine hand to kill thee; verily, I fear God the Lord of the worlds; verily, I wish that thou mayest draw upon thee my sin and thy sin, and be of the fellows of the Fire, for that is the reward of the unjust.' But his soul allowed him to slay his brother, and he slew him, and in the morning he was of those who lose. And God sent a crow to scratch in the earth and show him how he might hide his brother's shame, he said, 'Alas, for me! Am I too helpless to become like this crow and hide my brother's shame?' and in the morning he was of those who did repent.
For this cause have we prescribed to the children of Israel that whoso kills a soul, unless it be for another soul or for violence in the land, it is as though he had killed men altogether; but whoso saves one, it is as though he saved men altogether. Our apostles came to them with manifest signs; then, verily, many of them did after that commit excesses in the earth. The reward of those who make war against God and His Apostle, and strive after violence in the earth, is only that they shall be slaughtered or crucified, or their hands cut off and their feet on alternate sides, or that they shall be banished from the land;- that is a disgrace for them in this world, and for them in the next is mighty woe; save for those who repent before ye have them in your power, for know ye that God is forgiving, merciful. O ye who believe! fear God and crave the means to approach Him, and be strenuous in His way, haply ye will prosper then. Verily, those who disbelieve, even though they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like thereof with it, to offer as a ransom from the punishment of the resurrection day, it would not be accepted from them; but for them is grievous woe."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)
Regards,
Scott
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Popeyesays said:
Yes we do. Are you:
- Weakened in your own powers
- subject to ignorance,
- suffering and
- the domination of death, etc.
Catechism and Ludwig Ott
402. All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms:
"By one man's disobedience many [that is, all men] were made sinners":
"sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned..." [Rom 5:12,19]
"sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned..." [Rom 5:12,19]
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 125)
"No; it means what has already been said: Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: "Let the dead bury their dead."[1] Though those souls possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 126)
Man was create mortal, and part of Creation. That is his nature. Man was also created to overcome this, that is also his nature.
"1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
3. O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4. O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.
7. O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.
8. O SON OF SPIRIT!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.
9. O SON OF BEING!
My love is My stronghold; he that entereth therein is safe and secure, and he that turneth away shall surely stray and perish.
10. O SON OF UTTERANCE! Thou art My stronghold; enter therein that thou mayest abide in safety. My love is in thee, know it, that thou mayest find Me near unto thee.
11. O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
12. O SON OF BEING!
With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.
13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
3. O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4. O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.
7. O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.
8. O SON OF SPIRIT!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.
9. O SON OF BEING!
My love is My stronghold; he that entereth therein is safe and secure, and he that turneth away shall surely stray and perish.
10. O SON OF UTTERANCE! Thou art My stronghold; enter therein that thou mayest abide in safety. My love is in thee, know it, that thou mayest find Me near unto thee.
11. O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
12. O SON OF BEING!
With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.
13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting."
Baha`u'llah; The Arabic Hidden Words, numbers 1-13
Regards,
Scott
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 125)
"No; it means what has already been said: Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: "Let the dead bury their dead."[1] Though those souls possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 126)
Man was create mortal, and part of Creation. That is his nature. Man was also created to overcome this, that is also his nature.
"1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
3. O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4. O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.
7. O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.
8. O SON OF SPIRIT!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.
9. O SON OF BEING!
My love is My stronghold; he that entereth therein is safe and secure, and he that turneth away shall surely stray and perish.
10. O SON OF UTTERANCE! Thou art My stronghold; enter therein that thou mayest abide in safety. My love is in thee, know it, that thou mayest find Me near unto thee.
11. O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
12. O SON OF BEING!
With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.
13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
3. O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4. O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.
7. O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.
8. O SON OF SPIRIT!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.
9. O SON OF BEING!
My love is My stronghold; he that entereth therein is safe and secure, and he that turneth away shall surely stray and perish.
10. O SON OF UTTERANCE! Thou art My stronghold; enter therein that thou mayest abide in safety. My love is in thee, know it, that thou mayest find Me near unto thee.
11. O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
12. O SON OF BEING!
With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.
13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting."
Baha`u'llah; The Arabic Hidden Words, numbers 1-13
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Victor said:
That we are cretaed noble. That my father's sins are his, not mine. That Justice in the divine sense requires that I not be judged on the sins committed by Adam. That Adam and I were created men, and all men have the same nature.
What does it mean to you? Or did you bother to note the contents of the quotes?
Regards,
Scott
lunamoth
Will to love
Popeyesays said:
We are not judged for Adam's sins, but since we are the offspring of Adam we inherit the inclination to sin, as has been explained above. You don't inherit sin, yet you can't avoid it yourself. Further, living in a fallen (i.e., dualistic) world, it is impossible to not sin. You've got to eat, right? Christians, I think, view none but Christ as sinless.
peace,
lunamoth
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
lunamoth said:
Unfortunately, to accept that one has to accept that Adam "fell" from some other nature. The nature of man, as a creature of God, has always been the same. Adam was never perfect, because the nature of man is not perfection - that is the nature of God. The nature of man is nobility, and nobility of action requires choice.
If Adam was never perfect, there was never a "fall". Thus there was never "original sin". How can one sin by being what God intended one to be?
Regards,
Scott
lunamoth
Will to love
Popeyesays said:
We were created with free will and made the choice to rely upon ourselves instead of upon God. Do you think you can tell good from evil? Do you think you can achieve the perfect justice that God can? Pride pride pride.
But Scott, I will concede that you operate on an entirely different paradigm so, as usual, debate will get us no where.
peace,
lunamoth
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
lunamoth said:
Well, Luna, my paradigm requires me to attempt to be as just as God, because I am told to do so. My attempt will fall short. That is my nature.
Yes, we were created with free will, and we rely upon ourselves. We also reply upon God. Yes, I should be able to tell good from evil, so should anyone. The nature of God is perfection. The nature of man is not perfection.
"2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)
Regards,
Scott
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Popeyesays said:
Please note where I have noted that you (or anybody) will be charged for the sins of your fathers?
It's as if you ignored what Scott and I said. Oh well.
Popeyesays said:
I noted them alright, but as you are aware that interpretations vary and I'd rather get to the point then battle over what a verse means.
lunamoth
Will to love
Popeyesays said:
And Christ calls us to love perfectly as He loves us. My attempt will fall short. Luckily I will be forgiven, as will you. But that forgiveness does not relieve me of my responsibility to keep loving and being compassionate and merciful to the fullness of my ability. And yes, we must attempt to be just, all the while recognizing that the only one Who is really good is God.
Scott, we are just going to keep talking past each other here. The original sin discarded by the Baha'i Faith is not the doctrine of original sin found in Christianity, as Scott and Victor have pointed out.
Perhaps Scott and Victor will disagree with some of what I've said about original sin, but the way I see it this doctrine is meant for contemplation, as a ladder to help take our thoughts higher and closer to God. It is not meant as a measuring rod to weed out the goats from the sheep. Our understanding of it, or lack thereof, has no effect on the refuge and salvation found in God.
peace,
lunamoth
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
lunamoth said:
I think with that we have reached an accord. I believe the whole story of the fall is metaphor meant to be of contemplative value not to be taken literally. Though I doubt Scott1 will agree.
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Victor said:
I am not sure that Luna comes to accord with the Catholic version of original sin or not; however, I am in accord with what Luna said in her last post.
Regards,
Scott