• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Knowledge

1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
InChrist and I have been discussing knowledge a bit, what we really do and can "know. The definition of knowledge is, "facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject." First this tells us that knowledge is based on empirical evidence. Next it tells us that one need not gather that evidence themselves but being educated and shown the evidence is enough. Finally it says we must truly understand the subject to "know" it.

In some things I've written on Luciferianism I further defined knowledge as, "the closest possible stage of understanding to objective certainty one can achieve". People can argue all day that there's really nothing we can know and they have a point. For me, I accept the existence of objective knowledge on faith.

The conversation started with a claim that he "knows" god exists through different means. This is a common claim that pops up a lot. People claim they know god exists based on personal experience, seeing beauty in the world, feeling life is too complicated to not be created, etc. The problem is we absolutely do not know god exists (or does not), and claiming other wise is completely untrue. There is no empirical evidence supporting it, religious experiences can be explained away, beauty is subjective and doesn't imply a deity anyways, ignorance on any level does not imply god

It seems like a little thing but knowledge is very important in Luciferianism, and this is a forum about religious education. I don't see anything wrong with belief in god, but if you say you know god exists (or you know god does not exist) you are - plain and simply - lying. Understanding what knowledge is is very important when it comes to discussing religion. I think people like believing they know such things because not knowing causes distress, maybe even cognitive dissonance. This is something we individuals should try to over come. There is nothing wrong with not knowing, there is nothing wrong with belief, there is nothing wrong with faith. In fact, all of those are unavoidable. I believe when we truly understand knowledge and what we can or cannot know then we will find more peace.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The Doors of Perception said:
InChrist and I have been discussing knowledge a bit, what we really do and can "know. The definition of knowledge is, "facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject." First this tells us that knowledge is based on empirical evidence. Next it tells us that one need not gather that evidence themselves but being educated and shown the evidence is enough. Finally it says we must truly understand the subject to "know" it.
Click to expand...

Very wrong. Much knowledge you have to learn yourself.

In some things I've written on Luciferianism I further defined knowledge as, "the closest possible stage of understanding to objective certainty one can achieve". People can argue all day that there's really nothing we can know and they have a point. For me, I accept the existence of objective knowledge on faith.
Click to expand...

Great. So you accept faith as valid.

The conversation started with a claim that he "knows" god exists through different means. This is a common claim that pops up a lot. People claim they know god exists based on personal experience, seeing beauty in the world, feeling life is too complicated to not be created, etc. The problem is we absolutely do not know god exists (or does not), and claiming other wise is completely untrue. There is no empirical evidence supporting it, religious experiences can be explained away, beauty is subjective and doesn't imply a deity anyways, ignorance on any level does not imply god
Click to expand...

Wrong again! Jesus was the literal representative of God, various people in the Bible talked to God etc.

It seems like a little thing but knowledge is very important in Luciferianism,
Click to expand...

I haven't gotten that impression from the limited interaction with Luciferians or reading Luciferian commentary. But, o.k. I'll take your word for it!
and this is a forum about religious education. I don't see anything wrong with belief in god, but if you say you know god exists (or you know god does not exist) you are - plain and simply - lying.
Click to expand...
Eh, same with Lucifer?
Understanding what knowledge is is very important when it comes to discussing religion.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
I think people like believing they know such things because not knowing causes distress, maybe even cognitive dissonance.
Click to expand...
That's really presumptive.
This is something we individuals should try to over come.
Click to expand...

Huh? That is, again, just your perspective.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing, there is nothing wrong with belief, there is nothing wrong with faith.
Click to expand...
Contradiction here?
In fact, all of those are unavoidable. I believe when we truly understand knowledge and what we can or cannot know then we will find more peace.
Click to expand...

Eh...O.k..............not sure what the whole point of that commentary was.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
disciple said:
Very wrong. Much knowledge you have to learn yourself.
Click to expand...

If this were the case there could be no room for advancement. For example, say that you spend you life studying psychology and learning new information about the human mind. To get a degree in psych you would never need to take a class in archaeology. The psychologist can still know that the Egyptians built the pyramids in Giza based on archaeologists learning this and telling us. I never have to even go to Egypt myself to learn about the Egyptians.



Great. So you accept faith as valid.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by valid? I have no problem with faith, but having faith in something does not automatically make any belief valid.



Wrong again! Jesus was the literal representative of God, various people in the Bible talked to God etc.
Click to expand...

Once we start holding something like the bible as fact we kind of flush all meaning and science down the toilet.

Eh, same with Lucifer?
Click to expand...

Well of course. If someone saw Lucifer as an actual god then they would be lying in claiming they know he does or does not exist. Considering Lucifer has never been more than a word / title outside of some misinterpretation and mythology within Christianity, belief in some sort Luciferian god would hit even more walls than your average god-concept.

That's really presumptive.
Click to expand...

It's actually pretty basic. Humanity has an existence long struggle with not knowing. Just look how much effort we have committed to gaining knowledge.

Huh? That is, again, just your perspective.
Click to expand...

Well of course.

Contradiction here?
Click to expand...

Um... how so?

Eh...O.k..............not sure what the whole point of that commentary was.
Click to expand...

The point is - from my perspective as a Luciferian - people should understand what exactly knowledge and knowing is. When we claim to know things we don't actually know it causes an intellectual gap. For example, if we say we know God exists it makes a belief into fact and causes a gap where all experience, evidence, etc would fit. As you pointed out it certainly is perspective - it's religion. Do you feel Luciferians have less of a right to discuss and share religious ideals here than others?

Willamena said:
We know what we know, and we can't claim to know what others know.
Click to expand...

That's simply incorrect. If you say you know the earth actually orbits six suns and five are simply invisible and have no gravitational affect on the earth, then you fail to provide any evidence and have no evidence, I can conclusively say you know no such thing.
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
If some of the values you hold are scientific values, then knowledge is seen to exist on the continuum of:

data -> information -> knowledge -> wisdom

From this perspective, "knowledge of God" must be seen as a different definition of the word "knowledge". Seems to me this boils down to the common case of one word with many definitions.

So, using the scientific definition of knowledge, no one can have knowledge of God.
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
The Doors of Perception said:
That's simply incorrect. If you say you know the earth actually orbits six suns and five are simply invisible and have no gravitational affect on the earth, then you fail to provide any evidence and have no evidence, I can conclusively say you know no such thing.
Click to expand...
So you are one of those people who claim knowledge that there is no god?
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
The Doors of Perception said:
InChrist and I have been discussing knowledge a bit, what we really do and can "know. The definition of knowledge is, "facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject." First this tells us that knowledge is based on empirical evidence. Next it tells us that one need not gather that evidence themselves but being educated and shown the evidence is enough. Finally it says we must truly understand the subject to "know" it.

In some things I've written on Luciferianism I further defined knowledge as, "the closest possible stage of understanding to objective certainty one can achieve". People can argue all day that there's really nothing we can know and they have a point. For me, I accept the existence of objective knowledge on faith.

The conversation started with a claim that he "knows" god exists through different means. This is a common claim that pops up a lot. People claim they know god exists based on personal experience, seeing beauty in the world, feeling life is too complicated to not be created, etc. The problem is we absolutely do not know god exists (or does not), and claiming other wise is completely untrue. There is no empirical evidence supporting it, religious experiences can be explained away, beauty is subjective and doesn't imply a deity anyways, ignorance on any level does not imply god

It seems like a little thing but knowledge is very important in Luciferianism, and this is a forum about religious education. I don't see anything wrong with belief in god, but if you say you know god exists (or you know god does not exist) you are - plain and simply - lying. Understanding what knowledge is is very important when it comes to discussing religion. I think people like believing they know such things because not knowing causes distress, maybe even cognitive dissonance. This is something we individuals should try to over come. There is nothing wrong with not knowing, there is nothing wrong with belief, there is nothing wrong with faith. In fact, all of those are unavoidable. I believe when we truly understand knowledge and what we can or cannot know then we will find more peace.
Click to expand...

LOL...so much for your observational skills in your acquisition of knowledge. We have conversed off and on for at least a couple of years and yet you say... "he knows god exists"... when I am not even a "he', but a she.

I think even a little thing like this just highlights my point that people often have already formulated ideas about things, life, people, God, etc. which influences even how they see, don't see or interpret empirical evidence. I would get into this a little more if it wasn't so late.

Even before I was a Christian or had ever heard the the passages below I knew from the knowledge I had in my conscience and the creation around me that their was Creator.

...because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse... Romans 1:19-20


that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him..Eph. 1;17


that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Col. 2:2-3

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor, 4:6
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
InChrist said:
LOL...so much for your observational skills in your acquisition of knowledge. We have conversed off and on for at least a couple of years and yet you say... "he knows god exists"... when I am not even a "he', but a she.
Click to expand...

Pffff, cmon. You know I have vastly more going on than remembering the sex of people using non-humam usernames. Not an argument. I do apologize, though.

I think even a little thing like this just highlights my point that people often have already formulated ideas about things, life, people, God, etc. which influences even how they see, don't see or interpret empirical evidence. I would get into this a little more if it wasn't so late.
Click to expand...

I definity agree, and we can debate all day whether God does or doesn't not exist based on empirical evidence. This is because we don't know the answer.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The Doors of Perception said:
Well of course. If someone saw Lucifer as an actual god then they would be lying in claiming they know he does or does not exist. Considering Lucifer has never been more than a word / title outside of some misinterpretation and mythology within Christianity, belief in some sort Luciferian god would hit even more walls than your average god-concept.
Click to expand...

Explain? If Lucifer is a Christian concept, why are you following it?

Can you just simply summarize Luciferianism in a basic way?
 
nash8

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
The Doors of Perception said:
InChrist and I have been discussing knowledge a bit, what we really do and can "know. The definition of knowledge is, "facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject." First this tells us that knowledge is based on empirical evidence. Next it tells us that one need not gather that evidence themselves but being educated and shown the evidence is enough. Finally it says we must truly understand the subject to "know" it.

In some things I've written on Luciferianism I further defined knowledge as, "the closest possible stage of understanding to objective certainty one can achieve". People can argue all day that there's really nothing we can know and they have a point. For me, I accept the existence of objective knowledge on faith.

The conversation started with a claim that he "knows" god exists through different means. This is a common claim that pops up a lot. People claim they know god exists based on personal experience, seeing beauty in the world, feeling life is too complicated to not be created, etc. The problem is we absolutely do not know god exists (or does not), and claiming other wise is completely untrue. There is no empirical evidence supporting it, religious experiences can be explained away, beauty is subjective and doesn't imply a deity anyways, ignorance on any level does not imply god

It seems like a little thing but knowledge is very important in Luciferianism, and this is a forum about religious education. I don't see anything wrong with belief in god, but if you say you know god exists (or you know god does not exist) you are - plain and simply - lying. Understanding what knowledge is is very important when it comes to discussing religion. I think people like believing they know such things because not knowing causes distress, maybe even cognitive dissonance. This is something we individuals should try to over come. There is nothing wrong with not knowing, there is nothing wrong with belief, there is nothing wrong with faith. In fact, all of those are unavoidable. I believe when we truly understand knowledge and what we can or cannot know then we will find more peace.
Click to expand...

Although I generally agree with your assertation. I also think you must have knowledge of the person who you are speaking with's conception of God.

For example, if you are arguing with a naturalistic pantheist. There conception of God is the Universe. Can you legitimately deny that the universe exists? Contrarily, you can deny that this particular conception God, does not fit the definition of God, however it does. At least in some context.

God - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Dependent upon if you pick and choose, you could create a definition for God that would still be within the confines of the Panthiestic concept, and would be somewhat "supernatural", but still be well within the confines of the parameters of quantum physics.

So while I agree, that given the general Judeo-Christian concept of God, along with many others can't really be proven one way or another. A pantheistic view under certain conditions would be just as hard to disprove in my opinion.

I take it you are not a theistic Luciferian?
 
nash8

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Willamena said:
So you are one of those people who claim knowledge that there is no god?
Click to expand...

No, he's one of those people that claim knowledge that he knows we can never know whether God exists or doesn't exist... In other words, the worst kind of people... ;)

The Doors of Perception said:
Pffff, cmon. You know I have vastly more going on than remembering the sex of people using non-humam usernames. Not an argument. I do apologize, though.
Click to expand...

You Luciferian masculinist you. ;)

Great thread by the way.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
The Doors of Perception said:
Pffff, cmon. You know I have vastly more going on than remembering the sex of people using non-humam usernames. Not an argument. I do apologize, though.
Click to expand...

I think we as humans do have a tendency to be unobservant or at least selectively observant. Anyway, I certainly don't take it person and there is no need to apologize.



I definity agree, and we can debate all day whether God does or doesn't not exist based on empirical evidence. This is because we don't know the answer.
Click to expand...
[/quote]

I think we can know because GOD has revealed His existence through:

Creation
Conscience
Christ
Cannon of scripture-His Word

and each person makes a conscious choice to receive or reject, observe or ignore this revelation.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
The Doors of Perception said:
Lucifer is not a "Christian concept", though Jesus does embody a Luciferian archetype.

/quote]

Whether one worships Lucifer as a deity or adheres to the nontheistic view of Lucifer as nothing more than a symbol of mankind’s quest for knowledge and wisdom I think for either concept to exist they are dependent on the revelation of the Bible. It is through the pages of the scriptures that the information is revealed in the first place of the existence of Lucifer and/or the idea of gaining knowledge apart from the truth of the Creator God.
Click to expand...
 
S

Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
InChrist said:
Whether one worships Lucifer as a deity or adheres to the nontheistic view of Lucifer as nothing more than a symbol of mankind’s quest for knowledge and wisdom I think for either concept to exist they are dependent on the revelation of the Bible. It is through the pages of the scriptures that the information is revealed in the first place of the existence of Lucifer and/or the idea of gaining knowledge apart from the truth of the Creator God.
Click to expand...

Lucifer isn't a name of a being. It was a title and a noun. In mythology, Lucifer was the Roman version of the Greek Phosphorus, who simply represented the planet Venus before the dawn. He was the son of the dawn goddess, Eos. It was more of a poetic metaphor than anything else.

In Isiah 14, that chapter was referring to Nebuchadnezzar II. It was mocking him. The Latin Vulgate translated a word as "Lucifer" and then it was misinterpreted as being the name of Satan. We're not sure what Satan's angelic name was, but it certainly wasn't Lucifer. All the angels have Hebrew names, usually ending in "el".
 
Last edited:
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
InChrist said:
I think we can know because GOD has revealed His existence through:

Creation
Conscience
Christ
Cannon of scripture-His Word

and each person makes a conscious choice to receive or reject, observe or ignore this revelation.
Click to expand...

These things require belief before you can say they're true. While the belief may be a logically valid one it is not the same as knowing. Nobody knows whether any god does or doesn't exist. There is no empirical evidence at all, let alone that's conclusive.

InChrist said:
Whether one worships Lucifer as a deity or adheres to the nontheistic view of Lucifer as nothing more than a symbol of mankind’s quest for knowledge and wisdom I think for either concept to exist they are dependent on the revelation of the Bible. It is through the pages of the scriptures that the information is revealed in the first place of the existence of Lucifer and/or the idea of gaining knowledge apart from the truth of the Creator God.
Click to expand...

How? Lucifer doesn't appear anywhere in Christianity except based on a misunderstanding of Isaiah 14:12.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
The Doors of Perception said:
These things require belief before you can say they're true. While the belief may be a logically valid one it is not the same as knowing. Nobody knows whether any god does or doesn't exist. There is no empirical evidence at all, let alone that's conclusive.
Click to expand...

Creation is empirical evidence of a Creator, along with His Word...In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen. 1:1)


How? Lucifer doesn't appear anywhere in Christianity except based on a misunderstanding of Isaiah 14:12.
Click to expand...
[/quote]

I 'm not sure what your misunderstanding is, but I think this verse is pretty clear about the being and nature of Lucifer.
 
Reptillian

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
There are two major philosophical schools concerning the origin and nature of knowledge. Empiricists (of which I am a fan) think that experience is the root of all knowledge. Rationalists think that reason is where knowledge originates. A hard core rationalist believes that one could plug his ears, close his eyes, and deduce the entire universe logically through pure thought. Socrates is one example of an historic rationalist. He believed that all men are born with absolute knowledge, but experience triggers reminders and memory. What an empiricist calls learning, Socrates would call remembering.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top