dorcas3000
Member
sojourner said:First paragraph: Isn't that how we're all going to approach God? The judgment isn't about God keeping score on us. God always celebrates the good stuff and tosses the bad stuff away. When we stand before God, face to face with ulitmate truth and naked in ultimate light, with no place to hide or justify our selfish motives and self-righteousness, that comparison of the purity of God to the impurity of humanity will, in and of itself, be a judgment. The condemnation will come, not from God, but from ourselves, as we will be forced to admit our guilt. But, faced, too, with ulitmate love and acceptance, don't you think we'd rather embrace that truth -- the truth that God loves us no matter what, and has cleansed us -- than the alternative, which is to turn away from God in shame?
I think I agree with you until you assume that anyone who stands before God will suddenly accept his grace. I think it's possible that some people will stand before God and suddenly repent. But I also think its even more possible that some are so enveloped in sin that they will refuse God. Heck, it happened to satan and his demons.
Yes, that's because no one has been judged yet. We are still being sought after by God, and of course he welcomes us. What happens at the judgement, well that's different. I still think you're asserting truths that really aren't there. You are interpreting scripture in a way that is not necessarily true, but not necessarily false either. That's a precarious situation to be in.sojourner said:paragraph 2: We have all kinds of proof of God's love, and grace, and forbearance and acceptance of sinners, and kindness, and desire for relationship in the Bible!
That's why churches should stop teaching such doctrine. Christ's message was not 'death and destruction' it was repentence and forgiveness. However, there's a difference between just focusing on the gospel and creating more doctrine that disregards any reference to judgement and punishment. Judgement is something we need to be aware of, but not preach endlessly.sojourner said:My friend (he) was reared in a Christian home...but it was a home built on legalism and piety, where sinners were sent to hell by a condemning God. In light of that, he completely turned away from God on the premise that, if God is love, why would God condemn his children? I have to admit that, if I had been raised in that kind of religion, I would have turned away from it, too! it was exactly this teaching of fear-and-reward based salvation that made him an atheist! There is nothing I can say to him that will make him change his mind. All I can do is love him -- which I ardently believe is 1) what Jesus does with him and 2) what Jesus calls me to do with him.
I'm getting the word guarantee from Ephesians 1:13-14:sojourner said:You use the word "guarantee." Salvation isn't contractual -- it's a covenant. A guarantee is a contractual device. God's covenant extends to all humanity without proviso (another contractual device). God didn't say, "I'll save you if..." God said, "In this act of sacrifice, death now means nothing."
You're kinding of missing my point. If you look at the ENTIRE NT, you have the Jews who are trying to get good with God through the Law. By doing this, you have to 'hope' that doing enough good things will get you on God's side. Salvation is not guaranteed in that sense. Jesus then comes along and says, it's not about the law, it's about your heart. He emphasizes repentence. Then...Jesus becomes the blood of the new covenant. And...a covenant IS a contract. I have never heard someone say it wasn't. But it's a bit different...to explain:And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession
1) The wrong way to approach the covenant is God and his club saying "so you want in? Well, to get in you need to do this this and this. If you do that, THEN i'll let you in"
2) The right way to look at covenant is this: We can't 'know' God fully, and we know that we will mess up. God says, "I don't want you to live in fear of me. Here is my will for you, this this and this. I hate sin and can't live with it. Sin can't be in heaven. But this is hard, and I know that. I love you so much, despite the fact you mess up. So i'm willing to help. Just say, 'help me' and i'm there. I will rescue you from sin and help you become perfect, if that's what you want. I hope you want it, because that's what I want for you. When you ask for my help I PROMISE I will, and I PROMISE that I will not hold your screw ups against you any more - because I don't want you to live in fear of me. You can live without doubt of whether or not I approve of you. That is my guarantee, and my covenant."
See the difference? Anyways, you're saying things that aren't necessarily true. Like, a second chance. But if we turn to God now, then we don't have to worry about judgement now do we?
another example: Say God is like Conan O'Brien, and you want to be on his show (I was just in an audience for his show). Now, you can wait in line for tickets and get put in the 'maybe' line and all that, but you don't really know if you'll get in. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But if you know Conan, he says, "Do this and you'll get in definitely, no matter what!" Now, if you really wanted in, wouldn't you do what he said? And why tell people to go stand in the maybe line, when you know how to 'definitely' get in? Truth is, some people would rather be in the maybe line, for whatever reason. But the Good News is, we know the secret how to definitely get in!