CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah but, Without blood, God can't or won't forgive a person? So those grain offering Jews were never really forgiven? Or, none of the Jews were really forgiven, totally, because Jesus is the only "perfect" sacrifice?
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Without blood there is no...whoops
- Thread starter Tumah
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Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I have not done a study on "Is Yahshuah God" for some time; you have reminded me of some things, such as the translation of Heb1.8. Interesting.
There is an analogy that someone used that went something like this:
Two people went to someone's house; one of them knocked over a vase and smashed it; the owner said it was alright and he forgave them; then he said, 'But give me some money for costs'. The point is, if he has forgiven them, he cannot ask for payment, otherwise there is no forgiveness. So then this means that if God created everything, he has to be the one who also pays the price, not us, not someone else. If that is the case, the argument is that Yahshuah must therefore be God, or how has he really forgiven.
I will return your mind to Ecc 9.5 which says that the dead know nothing and even the memory of them is forgotten. If "everyone is resurrected" as you say, then how is Ecc correct; for there would be NO dead. Thus Scripture is found false.
EDIT:
what of Thomas and John 20? ho theos
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
forgiveness does not necessarily mean that there are no consequences.
Even Gods word states this:
Exodus 34:6 '..."Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, 7 preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment,...'
God does forgive our sins. But he does not exempt us from punishment.
You might ask 'why' and the answer is simple:
Hebrews 12:6 for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son
the reality is all around us. Mankind are all dying. Even the very best of us still die. We are not supposed to die, we can live forever but none of us do.
Now, you tell me, who is paying the price??
That verse is telling us what happens to us when we die.
The resurrection tells us that we 'can' live again. But should we die again, the condition is the same...its unconscious non-existence. So the resurrection hope does not negate the state of death. The state of death will always be the same.... if we die, we will be forgotten.
can you elaborate on these... which verses and what point do you think they make?
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
good answer. But, and there's always a but, we shall assume that the suffering is here, right, so then there is no suffering later as, "all things are made new". So then we are forgiven.
Again this explains death well, we sin, we die.
Who pays the price? First I scratch my head...........it appears to me that is 'we' who pay the price. It is our body which has to die for forgiveness. Yet it is only through the Mashiyach's complete sacrifice that we live fully. As everything to me is God, and therefore we are in that sense, one could say we make the gods alive, I could say that is right. After all, the Saviour was the example, the pattern, was he not? So then we do as he, he died, we die. This is why we must be baptised into HIS death, as this makes us one with him and therefore raised with him. This suggests that there are different levels of Heaven, which is what the Gnostic scripture would also imply. All scripture is beneficial. So ultimately it is still the Saviour who 'saves' as he is the perfect sacrifice. Those not in him are not the perfect sacrifice and therefore rely on their own bodily sacrifice.
And considering that the suffering is of the world, I would say that the sacrifice of the lord is still applicable and therefore necessary and therefore he must be the one paying the price. So if all things come from God, he must also be one with God, making him Divine (Jh1.1). He also says that "I and the Father are one". One what? If that scripture is true, he must also be the same as God, therefore Divine, otherwise that scripture is error. Which it is not, it is Scripture.
See John 20.28 where Thomas calls Yahshuah God (ho theos).
I still don't think you see what I mean about Ecc 9.5. If Scripture is true, and by the lord's own words, "cannot be broken", then there are DEAD. But there will not be if EVERYONE is raised. Thus for a time at least, there would be no dead. Thus Scripture is wrong. Scripture is not wrong, you think it is?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
death ends sin... its the price for sin. If you are issued with a fine for comitting a crime, once you pay the fine, you are no longer held accountable for the crime. We know the phrase 'do the crime, do the time' We know that justice is balanced when a crime is paid for.
Mankind commit crime against Gods law every day. And accoridng to Gods law, there is but one fine - death.
So when we die, our sins are completely acquitted. this is what the bible says:
Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted (released/ransomed) from his sin.
Hence, we are completely forgiven in this system when we die.
yes, pretty much. Jesus has offered the death of himself on our behalf. He has paid the penalty for sin so that in the next system, we can have the opportunity to live forever.
Of course this happens during the Messianic age... the dead will be restored to life by means of Christs sacrifice.
well, the bible says that no man has ever seen God at any time.
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him
So its not reasonable to conclude that Jesus is God just because he died for us.
If God died, who resurrected him? And God is 'eternal' and 'immortal' which means he cannot die. Jesus on the other hand was mortal and this proves by logical deduction that he could not have been God.
I would direct you to verse 31 of this chapter. What conclusion does the Apostle John want us to reach about Jesus identity.
Have a look at the verse and tell me who the Christ is.
some people will not be raised to life.... people who committed the 'unforgivable' sin for example. Jesus said those will not be forgiven and therefore its right to conclude that they will not be resurrected.
The people who died during the time of the flood will not be resurrected because they were put to death by God already, so they have already recieved their judgement.
And there were examples of the Israelites who were put to death by Gods hand...they too cannot expect a resurrection..
So not all people will be resurrected. The resurrection is a 2nd chance for those who have the potential to come to know God and accept him into their lives. People who knew God and turned away from him will not receive such a wonderful opportunity. So Ecclesiastes is true for all time.
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Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I take your point about John20, but it still says ho theos and it is directed at Yahshuah. I don't think we can ignore that. They are said to be 'one', and if Scripture is true then they are indeed one.
As for some not resurrected, this would indeed cover Ecc 9.5, but it seems that that is not fair to convict a group who did not know him in the first place, and we kno that God is just. Also Acts tells us that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and wicked, so this would seem to suggest that what you say is wrong.
CMike
Well-Known Member
Also the sacrifices were for unintentional sins with very few exceptions.
So what about all the intentional sins that there were no sacrifices for?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
You can't look at Christianity through the lens of Judaism, doesn't work. This problem constantly comes up in various topics, we don't even have the same Prophets, apples and oranges.
CMike
Well-Known Member
I completely agree.
Christianity and Judaism are completely seperate religions.
The problem to me is how christians take jewish scriptures, laws, traditions, and customs, and utterly pervert them to make them support their religion.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
What about the 'guilt offerings' as described in Leviticus chpt 5 & 6
They were for individual sins committed. Do they not count as sacrifices for sins?
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
They don't pervert them, they understand them! You also said:
Go on then, which sacrifices, and what's the answer.... you brought it up
jtartar
Well-Known Member
CynthiaCypher,
According to the Holy Scriptures, there is no forgiveness of sin unless blood is poured out in atonement.
All people in the past died, because of inherited imperfection from Adam. After 1513 BC men were given The Mosaic Law Covenant. Under this covenant, if a serious sin was committed, the sinner must do certain things to keep God from carrying out the punishment for the sins, and most serious required the sacrifice of some animal, which really did not completely free a person from sin, but allowed the sinner to keep living. The sinner would still die in time, but not for the sin, but because he, like us,inherited imperfection from Adam.
When a person dies he is freed from all sin, because he has then paid the ultimate penalty for his sins, Rom 6:23, 7. So when a person dies he is then sinless, but that only means that he will not be punished for the past sibs he committed, it does not pay the price for a resurrection, back to life again.
That is one of the main reasons that Jesus cMe to earth, to give his life as a Ransom Sacrifice, so that we could gain back what Adam lost for us, everlasting life on earth, the earth also being returned to the condition of The Garden of Eden.
If you contemplate John 3:16 you will see that much of that idea is contained there. Some have even called John 3:16, The The Gospel in Miniature. The same is Matt 20:28. The blood that was poured out for our sins, as at Heb 9:22, is the blood that Jesus poured out for every person who believes in him and his Great a Ransom Sacrifice, 1Tim 2:4-6.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
jtartar, did you read this post?
You said:
Sure Christian can wiggle out of it. And that's the problem. Whatever doesn't conform to a particular Christian's doctrine, they can find a way around it. But, if I do it, or someone from another religions does it, it is called "taking the Word out of context". If I say Adam and Eve and the Garden are symbolic and not literal. You might say, "No, it's all literal." Then I'll ask, "When you look upon a woman with lust do you pluck your eye out?" You'll probably say, "No, that's figurative. That would be stupid to do that." But that was Jesus that said it. So Jesus says things that aren't meant to be taken literal? So maybe all this blood stuff is symbolic? Maybe us being born in sin and subject to a death penalty because of Adam's sin is also symbolic? Maybe there wasn't a walking, talking serpent? Maybe them eating the forbidden fruit wasn't a literal story?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Perhaps not, but we know that the sacrifices were real. It's not figurative, in the Scripture.
CMike
Well-Known Member
According to whose scriptures?
That's certainly not true for Jewish scriptures.
What is important in Judaism is remorse and doing your best not to do it again.
Don't know very much about the Bible. Think the Jews know a lot more better than me about the need of blood to clear one's sin, acording to the the Torah. Anyway, I think the sacrifice of Jesus strengthens and testifies to me the idea of a merciful and lover God that receive us back, after we´ve been apart, as described in both the Torah and the Bible.
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Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Should the word [WAS] have been inserted there?