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where are the miracles?

brokensymmetry

ground state
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now? Think of the people God turned into salt, the floodings, the plagues, the talking of animals, the destroying of cities. Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now? Think of the people God turned into salt, the floodings, the plagues, the talking of animals, the destroying of cities. Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?

While I do think miracles still happen, I tend to think that they are mostly "low-profile" these days-- only visible if you're looking for them, and even then not always certainy identifiable as such.

I also think that some of the stories of miraculous occurrances in the Tanach are not to be taken literally-- the flood, for example, or Lot's wife becoming a pillar of salt-- but I also think some may have literally occurred in some fashion.

In my reading, I have not come across any concurrence amongst Jewish thinkers as to why more "showy" miracles no longer take place; and some of the theories I have encountered seem more satisfactory, and some less so.

My personal opinion is this. A good parent intervenes frequently and directly when raising a small child, in order to teach, to give consequences, and to spare them from too much harm; a good parent raising an older child-- a teenager or twentysomething-- knows to back off, let the child make their own mistakes and suffer their own consequences, and to be more discreet and quiet about providing them aid and assistance, so that the older child can learn and grow and thrive on their own two feet.

In the same way, God has "backed off" in His parenting style as the human race has grown and our societies and thinking have evolved. If we are to become mature, both as a species and in terms of our societies, we must be allowed to walk our own ways, and hopefully come to use productively the teaching and guidance that God has provided us in our "younger days."
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now?
Miraculous happenings are ....happening now. :)

Think of the people God turned into salt,
..........um....
the floodings,
Tsunamis...... dreadful
the plagues,
AIDS
the talking of animals,
Parrots..... :D
the destroying of cities.
Hiroshima
Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?
Hang..... you started out with miraculous happenings, now you switch to miracles... different.

My own mini-miraculous happening occurred last year. After increasing back agony since 1984, culminating last August in the ability to even walk for the first hour of any day, with perpetual agony and needing serious medication, I stood up at table one August evening last year, expecting the usual 'hell', and nothing happened. Nothing continued to happen for the rest of the evening (I could n't believe it) and has continued not to happen to this day. I haven't even taken an aspirin for 9 months now.... after 30 years of increasing serious pain and inability. Quite miraculous.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now? Think of the people God turned into salt, the floodings, the plagues, the talking of animals, the destroying of cities. Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?

Look around you. Miracles happen all the time.

Write a story about one or two and if the story is still helpful to people a century or two from now theists will insist that it is fact.

Tom
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now? Think of the people God turned into salt, the floodings, the plagues, the talking of animals, the destroying of cities. Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?

Miracles were there to prove that the prophets are prophets.
 

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
I hate when people just post scriptures as answers, but this one really expresses my views on the subject:

I say unto you... has the day of miracles ceased?

Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now? Think of the people God turned into salt, the floodings, the plagues, the talking of animals, the destroying of cities. Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?

They do occur today, they are just less apparent.

We observe a certain degradation, though. The more we look into the past the more magnificent the miracles were. Things like parting of the sea or people living several days in a fish do not happen anymore. They have been replaced by today's miraculous appearances on toasts.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Gordian Knot

Being Deviant IS My Art.
On the opposite side of the question, where there ever any miracles? There seems to be a great conflict nowadays as to whether the Bible should be read as if it historically happened, or if it should be read as metaphors; the purpose behind the story being more important as the lesson rather than seeing it as physical reality.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now? Think of the people God turned into salt, the floodings, the plagues, the talking of animals, the destroying of cities. Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?

Andrew Wommack would disagree with you.. search him
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
While I do think miracles still happen, I tend to think that they are mostly "low-profile" these days-- only visible if you're looking for them, and even then not always certainy identifiable as such.

I also think that some of the stories of miraculous occurrances in the Tanach are not to be taken literally-- the flood, for example, or Lot's wife becoming a pillar of salt-- but I also think some may have literally occurred in some fashion.

In my reading, I have not come across any concurrence amongst Jewish thinkers as to why more "showy" miracles no longer take place; and some of the theories I have encountered seem more satisfactory, and some less so.

My personal opinion is this. A good parent intervenes frequently and directly when raising a small child, in order to teach, to give consequences, and to spare them from too much harm; a good parent raising an older child-- a teenager or twentysomething-- knows to back off, let the child make their own mistakes and suffer their own consequences, and to be more discreet and quiet about providing them aid and assistance, so that the older child can learn and grow and thrive on their own two feet.

In the same way, God has "backed off" in His parenting style as the human race has grown and our societies and thinking have evolved. If we are to become mature, both as a species and in terms of our societies, we must be allowed to walk our own ways, and hopefully come to use productively the teaching and guidance that God has provided us in our "younger days."

It's the low-profileness that interests me personally. I'd like to think if I saw some of the 'big stuff', if you were someone who thinks it literally happened, that I would believe that God existed. So, I can't help but feel a bit annoyed. Maybe that makes me into the equivalent of infant in human development, but I think I would be okay with that downgrade if it meant knowing that God exists if God exists.

Of course, if you don't think that a lot of the very showy things really happened, and the point isn't about belief etc., I think that could be more complicated to assess what is the preferable state of affairs.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
They do occur today, they are just less apparent.

We observe a certain degradation, though. The more we look into the past the more magnificent the miracles were. Things like parting of the sea or people living several days in a fish do not happen anymore. They have been replaced by today's miraculous appearances on toasts.

Ciao

- viole

This is the source of my question. Anyone can think that so and so's prayer healed them of cancer. the problem is that cancer can seemingly spontaneously go away on atheists or the unprayed for also. It happens. That makes it nearly impossible to discern if cases such as are thought to occur today can really be attributed to miraculous causes. If you take the Bible at face value though, some pretty crazy, undeniably crazy, huge events went down that for reasons unclear to me we aren't privy to.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
Andrew Wommack would disagree with you.. search him

How is he going to disagree with me? A supposed healing here and there, that could be attributed to non miraculous causes, isn't what I have in mind (and no, I don't think his son was really dead for 5 hours). I am asking about the grand, undeniable miraculous happenings. If he starts praying over people and amputees spontaneously grow their limbs back in front of a crowd that would qualify.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
On the opposite side of the question, where there ever any miracles? There seems to be a great conflict nowadays as to whether the Bible should be read as if it historically happened, or if it should be read as metaphors; the purpose behind the story being more important as the lesson rather than seeing it as physical reality.

If you are cynical though, you could argue that people take that position precisely because miraculous stuff doesn't happen and everyone knows there wasn't a global flood, everyone knows God didn't rain a plague of frogs down on the Egyptians, everyone knows that when Jesus died the dead didn't come out of the graves etc... and because everyone knows that, the only way to still be religious in this tradition is to take this stuff metaphorically.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
If you are cynical though, you could argue that people take that position precisely because miraculous stuff doesn't happen and everyone knows there wasn't a global flood,
..........there's been worse than that, and the extinction of the dinosaurs is just one global catastrophe to show this.


everyone knows God didn't rain a plague of frogs down on the Egyptians,
........ so you've never heard of cases where it rained fish..?

everyone knows that when Jesus died the dead didn't come out of the graves etc...
.............. source?

and because everyone knows that, the only way to still be religious in this tradition is to take this stuff metaphorically.
........... rubbish. My first wife was cured of a particular kind of convulsions in 1973 by Healer Harry Edwards, and never had another until after his death in 1976-7.

I couldn't figure why you ignored my own mini-miraculous happening last August...... I get it now. Just for fun, I'll post it again...... By the way, my doctor and physio-therapist were utterly astounded.

My own mini-miraculous happening occurred last year. After increasing back agony since 1984, culminating last August in the ability to even walk for the first hour of any day, with perpetual agony and needing serious medication, I stood up at table one August evening last year, expecting the usual 'hell', and nothing happened. Nothing continued to happen for the rest of the evening (I could n't believe it) and has continued not to happen to this day. I haven't even taken an aspirin for 9 months now.... after 30 years of increasing serious pain and inability. Quite miraculous.

Now, if you replied to this post........ that would be miraculous indeed. :biglaugh:
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
This is the source of my question. Anyone can think that so and so's prayer healed them of cancer. the problem is that cancer can seemingly spontaneously go away on atheists or the unprayed for also. It happens. That makes it nearly impossible to discern if cases such as are thought to occur today can really be attributed to miraculous causes. If you take the Bible at face value though, some pretty crazy, undeniably crazy, huge events went down that for reasons unclear to me we aren't privy to.

Well, I have been facetious, lol.

Yes, miracles today are undistinguishable from not-miracles. Probably, God is more concerned today about not influencing our free-will than in the past, who knows?

Talking of the parting of the sea... The real miracle was that the Egyptians were so silly to try to follow the Jews after such a display of power. I wonder what they were thinking.

My guess, is that those miracles happened because they did not have cameras. Much easier to sell a miracle without the CNN.

Ciao

- viole
 
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brokensymmetry

ground state
Well, I have been facetious, lol.

Yes, miracles today are undistinguishable from not-miracles. Probably, God is more concerned today about not influencing our free-will than in the past, who knows?

Talking of the parting of the sea... The real miracle was that the Egyptians were so silly to try to follow the Jews after such a display of power. I wonder what they were thinking.

My guess, is that those miracles happened because they did not have cameras. Much easier to sell a miracle without the CNN.

Ciao

- viole

Who is selling it? I suspect that the miracles pop up in a natural sort of, and even honest, way.So and so hears from his friend's sister about something. Over time, incidents become inflated. A group of people comes in contact with a new group who has a set of legends which then get passed around, and so on, until it's a part of taken-for-granted wisdom. It happens even now. How often do I hear the refrain "wear a coat or you'll get a cold!" because somehow I will magically produce a cold virus if I happen to get chilled. People will believe things that their family and friends say, and will believe it more than empirical evidence. It's just something 'everyone knows'. I suspect a lot of these miracles are like that. Until a few hundred years ago in Europe, everyone just knew Christianity was true, that witches could harm you, and so on.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
How is he going to disagree with me? A supposed healing here and there, that could be attributed to non miraculous causes, isn't what I have in mind (and no, I don't think his son was really dead for 5 hours). I am asking about the grand, undeniable miraculous happenings. If he starts praying over people and amputees spontaneously grow their limbs back in front of a crowd that would qualify.


I agree. In fact there are numerous accounts of people being considered dead - only to awaken in their coffins, or today in those cold body holding bins.

In fact it used to happen so often that there are numerous old inventions for letting people know you are actually alive in your coffin, - such as bells.

Isn't there a recent case where a couple were told their child died at birth? Where the child was put in the cold drawer, and when they came to work on the body - the child was found to be alive, and to have struggled in the cold box, etc? I believe the parents are suing the doctor and the hospital.



*
 
Miracles are still happening today.
There are many people who are having terminal illnesses who are mysteriously cured of their sicknesses after they come to God in prayer.
In China, there are underground churches which are experiencing the miracles of the bible, just like what the book of Acts is talking about.
 
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