The Sociopath in the Sky

Nakosis said:

God does not demand anything. You are free to act out in any manner of your choosing.

Good and evil is the politics of man. Individuals trying to impose there own sense of right and wrong on each other.

Religious leaders, wise men, dictators, social leaders trying to provide guidelines for your or their own benefit.

Up to you to make the best or worst of life. Up to you to make your choices.

God is patient and a waits the time of your return. God will accept you when you are ready. That choice is entirely up to you.

There is no punishment other then you having to deal with the results/consequences of the choices you make. God imposes no laws. Other men do that. Maybe they are good men, maybe they are bad. You are free to accept these laws or reject them.

When you come before God, you will hold yourself accountable for every action and thought. You're own guilt will be the only burden/punishment.

You are as God expected you to be. The only question is, will you be able to forgive yourself.

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I have a feeling that guilt wouldn't always be the case for all sinners, unless God enforces guilt onto them - which is still enforcing punishment.

Sir Doom said:

Something tells me you have not come anywhere near hearing 100 million sermons, let alone 100 million talking about fire and brimstone.

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Did I say I heard them? I'd say the estimate is very conservative. They began in the new testament and lasted 2000 years. Each year more sermons from more preachers. When I was young in the 40's and 50's preachers did one of those soul saving, hell fire deals when they were preaching somebody's funeral.

Will Campbell said:

Did I say I heard them? I'd say the estimate is very conservative. They began in the new testament and lasted 2000 years. Each year more sermons from more preachers. When I was young in the 40's and 50's preachers did one of those soul saving, hell fire deals when they were preaching somebody's funeral.

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So you witnessed exactly one fire and brimstone sermon and now conflate that experience to 2000 years of sermons. Very scientific.

The Sum of Awe said:

I have a feeling that guilt wouldn't always be the case for all sinners, unless God enforces guilt onto them - which is still enforcing punishment.

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We develop and are confined by our own sense of morality. However this is the result of empathy and compassion. I don't know, you may actually be able to blame God for setting up a situation where empathy and compassion can exist. You have to suffer love and concern for your fellow man. Terrible, terrible...

Sir Doom said:

So you witnessed exactly one fire and brimstone sermon and now conflate that experience to 2000 years of sermons. Very scientific.

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My maternal grandmother began to brainwash me about 1940 when I was six years old. If I did something wrong or was "naughty" she told me old scratch would get me. Grammar schools in west TN during those years opened each morning with the pledge of allegiance and the lord's prayer. Each student was assigned a bible verse on Mondays to memorize and recite back to the class on Thursdays and Fridays.

I was baptized before a congregation of nearly 1000 on a Sunday morning in March 1957. I taught Sunday school, was a member of the Brotherhood, the building committee, worked with the RA boys, visited the sick on Tuesday evenings, made testimonials at small churches in nearby communities etc. I had most of the new testament memorized chapter and verse before I was thirty years old. I tithed my gross earnings.

I would sit in the sanctuary on Sunday mornings and look around at faces of the others and try to see if I saw the same kind of doubt which I always had and the kind which brought me to a decision about my 60th b'day which made me feel like I had been released from jail. I never believed that bunch of crap....not for a minute. I tried for most of my life and it didn't work for me. I couldn't continue to live a lie.

Most people who claim to believe the bible know very little if anything about what's actually in it. They put on their finest, drive their new cars, drop in something when they pass the plate and return home feeling good about themselves for another week. The money they donate goes for new buildings, building maintenance, stained glass, oak or mahagony pews, steeples, the preacher's salary and expenses, youth programs, religious retreats, missionaries, expensive musical instruments and sound systems, etc., etc., THE POOR BE DAMNED!

Anyone who makes such a ridiculous assertion as there is no fire and brimstone in the bible doesn't even have a clue about what's in the new testament and should keep their mouthes shut because when they open it the ignorance boils out for everyone to see and hear.

Religion and the Christian church in particular has been responsible for more evil acts than any other entity in the world. Granted often the government and church were entwined in authoritarian efforts but no group has ever withstood the trials of time better than those with the power. The crusades wiped out hundreds of thousands for simply differing beliefs.

For more than a thousand years the church required infant baptism. When ordinary folks began to doubt that kind of requirement and their attendance/donations began to falter the church made it optional. The scripture is still there but is never mentioned in that way.

For many thousands of years the church conducted witch hunts and tortured and put to death a conservative estimate of 100,000 innocent young women because they had been accused of witchcraft. When the general population caught on to the fact that there is no such thing as a witch the church backed away and shut up. The scripture is still there.

For thousands of years the church supported slavery, often accommodated it. When ordinary folks realized slavery is a practice for which there is no justification...guess what? The church backed away and never mentions the numerous scriptures in the bible which lend support to the practice.

Now the thing is hell itself. After millions of preachers preaching hundreds of millions of hell fire and brimstone sermons and the very concept of eternal torture and misery for non believing individuals making mistakes while living their lives has become extremely distasteful to the common man they are adamant in their insistence that it's all been errors in translation and are now preaching that hell is merely the eternal separation of man from god. All the scripture is still there but once again they have changed their position.

The church owns more real property in this world than any other entity except the governments. The Vatican City has a building which covers blocks and is loaded with rare treasures and art works which conservatively are worth hundreds of billions of dollars. All this while more than 900,000,000 humans are starving to death or suffering from the effects of malnutrition. By default the starving are mostly children.

I'm very glad I'm no longer a part of that fake bunch and when I look back I can't believe I stayed in it as long as I did.

Will Campbell said:

My maternal grandmother began to brainwash me about 1940 when I was six years old. If I did something wrong or was "naughty" she told me old scratch would get me. Grammar schools in west TN during those years opened each morning with the pledge of allegiance and the lord's prayer. Each student was assigned a bible verse on Mondays to memorize and recite back to the class on Thursdays and Fridays.

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Do you mean to say that your grandmother gave you fire and brimstone sermons? Or was telling you about 'old scratch' the extent of it?

Also, which parts of the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer do you consider to be fire and brimstone sermons?

I was baptized before a congregation of nearly 1000 on a Sunday morning in March 1957. I taught Sunday school, was a member of the Brotherhood, the building committee, worked with the RA boys, visited the sick on Tuesday evenings, made testimonials at small churches in nearby communities etc. I had most of the new testament memorized chapter and verse before I was thirty years old. I tithed my gross earnings.

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Oh! So you likely gave sermons yourself! Great! How many sermons did you give, and how many of those were fire and brimstone sermons?

I would sit in the sanctuary on Sunday mornings and look around at faces of the others and try to see if I saw the same kind of doubt which I always had and the kind which brought me to a decision about my 60th b'day which made me feel like I had been released from jail. I never believed that bunch of crap....not for a minute. I tried for most of my life and it didn't work for me. I couldn't continue to live a lie.

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I'm not sure if telling me you lived a lie for 60 years was supposed to lend credibility to your words, but I assure you it has done the opposite.

Most people who claim to believe the bible know very little if anything about what's actually in it. They put on their finest, drive their new cars, drop in something when they pass the plate and return home feeling good about themselves for another week. The money they donate goes for new buildings, building maintenance, stained glass, oak or mahagony pews, steeples, the preacher's salary and expenses, youth programs, religious retreats, missionaries, expensive musical instruments and sound systems, etc., etc., THE POOR BE DAMNED!

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Hold on. So, these people aren't Christian enough for you? What gives? Do you want people to be Christian or not?

Anyone who makes such a ridiculous assertion as there is no fire and brimstone in the bible doesn't even have a clue about what's in the new testament and should keep their mouthes shut because when they open it the ignorance boils out for everyone to see and hear.

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I made no such assertion. Reading is fun-fun-fundamental.

Religion and the Christian church in particular has been responsible for more evil acts than any other entity in the world. Granted often the government and church were entwined in authoritarian efforts but no group has ever withstood the trials of time better than those with the power. The crusades wiped out hundreds of thousands for simply differing beliefs.

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Please list in order the top 5 most 'evil acts' that religion is responsible for. Good luck.

For more than a thousand years the church required infant baptism. When ordinary folks began to doubt that kind of requirement and their attendance/donations began to falter the church made it optional. The scripture is still there but is never mentioned in that way.

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Can you explain how baptizing a baby is considered fire and brimstone sermon?

For many thousands of years the church conducted witch hunts and tortured and put to death a conservative estimate of 100,000 innocent young women because they had been accused of witchcraft. When the general population caught on to the fact that there is no such thing as a witch the church backed away and shut up. The scripture is still there.

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Can you explain how torturing and killing people suspected of Witchcraft counts as fire and brimstone sermons?

Also, is it your position that they should have continued this practice? You seem to be suggesting that the church's alteration of this was wrong.

For thousands of years the church supported slavery, often accommodated it. When ordinary folks realized slavery is a practice for which there is no justification...guess what? The church backed away and never mentions the numerous scriptures in the bible which lend support to the practice.

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Can you explain how condoning or supporting slavery counts as fire and brimstone sermons?

And again, are you saying they should not have backed away from this idea?

Now the thing is hell itself. After millions of preachers preaching hundreds of millions of hell fire and brimstone sermons and the very concept of eternal torture and misery for non believing individuals making mistakes while living their lives has become extremely distasteful to the common man they are adamant in their insistence that it's all been errors in translation and are now preaching that hell is merely the eternal separation of man from god. All the scripture is still there but once again they have changed their position.

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And this is nothing but a repetition of your original statement that brought me into this. Repeating yourself is not an argument. You have to actually explain further how you arrived at this position if you expect me to consider it.

And again... is it your position that the church should not have altered this belief?

The church owns more real property in this world than any other entity except the governments. The Vatican City has a building which covers blocks and is loaded with rare treasures and art works which conservatively are worth hundreds of billions of dollars. All this while more than 900,000,000 humans are starving to death or suffering from the effects of malnutrition. By default the starving are mostly children.

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Plenty of ridiculously wealthy people are doing a ridiculously bad job of using it. That, I will agree with you on.

However, can you explain how the acquisition of wealth and property constitutes a fire and brimstone sermon?

I'm very glad I'm no longer a part of that fake bunch and when I look back I can't believe I stayed in it as long as I did.

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After reading your post here, I must say I find it totally unsurprising.

Sir Doom said:

Do you mean to say that your grandmother gave you fire and brimstone sermons? Or was telling you about 'old scratch' the extent of it?

Also, which parts of the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer do you consider to be fire and brimstone sermons?

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Amazing how single minded you must be. To reduce a complex religious to one "Monkey See, Monkey Do!" assertion is ridiculous. I will answer one of those......I never preached...I gave personal testimonies. The fire and brimstone attitude by arrogant, egotistical, self righteous "Christians" is the real motivation for my doubts. For someone to believe they will meet their ghost buddy when he pops up in the east floating on a bank of clouds then fly away with him to some universal Disney Land is so ridiculous it's ludicrous. Add that everyone who disagrees with his fairy tale will burn in hell and that becomes a no brainer.

I repeat.....without the brainwashing of each new generation by the previous one that crap would be deader than Hogan's goat.

Oh......try that 1940's holy rollin' in the grammar schools today and see how far you get.

The Sum of Awe said:

I don't understand it; how can you say you have freewill, the freedom of choosing, but at the same time you'll go to hell if God doesn't have it his way?

I can't help but see this God of Abraham as a baby - kicking and screaming that it has to be his way. Or maybe a sociopath: He'll punch you in the face, apologize and tell you it was for the best, and he'll convince you that he's nice and caring until you put trust back in him, and once again he'll punch you in the face, rinse and repeat.

He tells you that you can do whatever you want, but really you can't. It's wordplay: you can do whatever you want, but you aren't allowed to do certain things. Then he sets up temptations for all of these things, you are circled in these temptations but you have to control yourself as he keeps making it harder and harder for you like a damn drill sergeant.

A mobster holds a gun to your head and says "You are free to choose whether or not you give me all of your money, but if you choose not to I'm going to shoot you." Hahaha, isn't that EXACTLY how it is with God? "You can murder as many people as you want, but we're going to take you to prison." Never heard a sane law enforcer say that.

You get into a car accident and break both of your legs, but God tells you "I saved your life, you only broke your legs, but I stopped you from dying." You don't thank him, you don't worship him, you don't trust him. You pluck out his eyes and kick him in the throat, and demand a reason why he allowed you to break your legs with the same power he allowed you to keep your life, or why he even didn't use that power to prevent a car crash at all! Even knowing that he's going to punish you more.

There's a God above us, telling people that in time things will get better, but they only do temporarily, until you put your trust into him, that's when they'll start to get worse again. He demands you to love him, threatens you if you don't. He promises peace and serenity but he is a Canaanite war god.

If we're all created in God's image, and we're born a sinner, then God himself is a sinner. If we are supposed to be peaceful, why did he make us with wrathful nature?

Freewill has nothing to do with any of this - it's entirely God's fault, because we have very little freewill compared to our emotions, personality, instincts, desires... all of that came with us, all of that is God-given, and all of that controls our behavior.

Back to the scenario with the mobster and the gun to your head - just burn the money and expect the worse. In order to make God lose, you have to lose as well.

/rant

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I give you free will and if you act not according to my desire then I'll punish you.

- Thank you sir, I don't want free will.

Other animals, who don't have free will, will have it way easier, because they live the life they want, and they would never question it, and most of the time they enjoy
what they do.

I'd personally take a life of a robot as long as I could feel joy and happiness without having to think about anything, that's kinda the dream! All happiness and no struggles!

Will Campbell said:

Amazing how single minded you must be.

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Well, you said something which I responded to and then you tried to argue with that by interjecting a bunch of unrelated commentary about Christianity. That's why all of my questions are essentially the same one and all refer back to the point where I responded. You keep trying to trying to tell me how evil the church is and I don't even care, being that I'm not any flavor of Christian in the first place. Which means that I'm only disagreeing with you on a technical level. Which is why I made the comment that I did. You're just exaggerating for effect and its plain to see.

To reduce a complex religious to one "Monkey See, Monkey Do!" assertion is ridiculous.

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Such as, "100 million fire and brimstone sermons." for example?

I will answer one of those......I never preached...I gave personal testimonies.

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In other words, you gave exactly zero fire and brimstone sermons throughout your entire 60 years as a Christian.

The fire and brimstone attitude by arrogant, egotistical, self righteous "Christians" is the real motivation for my doubts.

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Again, you are describing a group of people that you obviously do not consider 'real' Christians and this is being framed as a negative. So, are they supposed to be 'real' Christians in your opinion? Or are they supposed to not be Christians at all?

For someone to believe they will meet their ghost buddy when he pops up in the east floating on a bank of clouds then fly away with him to some universal Disney Land is so ridiculous it's ludicrous.

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Do you feel the same way about after life scenarios that don't include ghost buddies, floating banks of clouds, or universal Disney Lands?

Add that everyone who disagrees with his fairy tale will burn in hell and that becomes a no brainer.

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I'm sure it doesn't. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many people that believe in something similar. Although I do think your description is a bit outside the typical Christian notion of Heaven and I can't say that I've ever heard anyone actually describe it that way to me.

I repeat.....without the brainwashing of each new generation by the previous one that crap would be deader than Hogan's goat.

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As would be the way with many traditions in human society. Some good, some bad. Naturally, we don't need any excuses at all to do good or bad things to each other. Least of all religious ones.

Oh......try that 1940's holy rollin' in the grammar schools today and see how far you get.

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Funny how quickly the people I argue with assume I'm a Christian simply for disagreeing with them. This does not indicate any kind of prejudicial attitude in my opponents at all. [/sarcasm]

The Sum of Awe said:

I can't help but see this God of Abraham as a baby - kicking and screaming that it has to be his way.

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I just want to say that that's not the god of Abraham. It's the so-called "Abrahamic God." There's a difference.

So...try to see it from God's point of view....

You create a universe and you are the first and only Spirit.
You attempt to form other spirit.....and the reflection is exact.
Your echo and your image....as if a mirror.

Talking to yourself might be a bit.....boring.

All else you have to work with is substance.
A blend between spirit and substance is the only option.

Having done so, the reduced 'image' is less than you are.
(of course it is)

If it obeys every spoken word and never does otherwise......
does it have free will?

There's only one way to find out.
Give it the choice between the acquisition of knowledge.....or death.
If it choices knowledge it then has enough spirit to survive the last breath.

All you have to do then is find a way to save it from itself.

Thief said:

So...try to see it from God's point of view....

You create a universe and you are the first and only Spirit.
You attempt to form other spirit.....and the reflection is exact.
Your echo and your image....as if a mirror.

Talking to yourself might be a bit.....boring.

All else you have to work with is substance.
A blend between spirit and substance is the only option.

Having done so, the reduced 'image' is less than you are.
(of course it is)

If it obeys every spoken word and never does otherwise......
does it have free will?

There's only one way to find out.
Give it the choice between the acquisition of knowledge.....or death.
If it choices knowledge it then has enough spirit to survive the last breath.

All you have to do then is find a way to save it from itself.

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If this life is the best a superior Omnipotent being can come up with I weep. If this being is bound by certain laws that I cannot fathom then such a being is not truly "omnipotent" and not worth worshiping.

They try and compare him to parent and child but sorry a more apt comparison is to a maker and a robot. If your robot goes haywire and hurts people because of your faulty programming it is absolutely your fault.

no-body said:

If this life is the best a superior Omnipotent being can come up with I weep. If this being is bound by certain laws that I cannot fathom then such a being is not truly "omnipotent" and not worth worshiping.

They try and compare him to parent and child but sorry a more apt comparison is to a maker and a robot. If your robot goes haywire and hurts people because of your faulty programming it is absolutely your fault.

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He created chemistry and the rules that go with it.
For that creation to be firm and reliant.....few exceptions can be allowed.

If you stand on a high ledge and consider stepping off.....don't.
The angels are likely to let you fall.

On another day.....walk on water or raise the dead.

Maybe it depends on your level of personal discipline.

I think that a certain maker (God) made a faulty robot (His creations), for whose wrong deeds the maker will punish them is faulty. In my religion human beings were born good. But Satan leads them astray. It is upto us to be good or bad. Our Maker gave us both the capacity and choice to be good or bad. That's why this world is a test and not an entertainment ground. And honestly who said that this world is easy? This world was not meant to be easy, on of whose reasons are the bad people. The afterlife is supposed to be easy.

Draupadi said:

I think that a certain maker (God) made a faulty robot (His creations), for whose wrong deeds the maker will punish them is faulty. In my religion human beings were born good. But Satan leads them astray. It is upto us to be good or bad. Our Maker gave us both the capacity and choice to be good or bad. That's why this world is a test and not an entertainment ground. And honestly who said that this world is easy? This world was not meant to be easy, on of whose reasons are the bad people. The afterlife is supposed to be easy.

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All but the last line.....

I say.....discipline in this life.
A greater discipline in the next.