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What do you want to know about LDS beliefs?

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
The whole of faith of Mormonism rests on whether or not Smith was a true prophet of God. The most effective way to see if a man is prophet of God or not, according to what God says in Deuteronomy, to see if his predictions come true. If he is a false prophet, his predictions will not come true, and he will prove himself false. Furthermore, they would speak what God tells them, and why would God contradict himself?

Example of false prophesy-

"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left.."

The United States never apologized for anything to the Mormon Church. The United States in government was not overthrown. Joseph Smith made a false prophecy. However, some of Mormons teach that the Civil War was the fulfillment of this prophecy. It was not because the united states government was not utterly overthrown and wasted. In fact, it is still here.

Ever hear of the Civil War? That's one possible explanation. Prophecy depends upon interpretation, and you have no intent of ever interpreting anything from the LDS favorably.

The government of the U.S. post civil war was vastly shaken up and in many metaphorical explanations "not a potsherd was left".

Regards,
Scott
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
While we are at it, let us take a look at the words of Brigham Young, the Second Prophet of the Mormon Church.

"I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)
Journal of Discourses -- not official doctrine.


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266).
Journal of Discourses -- not official doctrine.


Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).
Journal of Discourses -- not official doctrine.



"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289).
Journal of Discourses -- not official doctrine.



"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).
Journal of Discourses -- not official doctrine.


What's the problem here, Barnabus? Why is this so hard to understand?
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
So then, my question to the LDS is this, in the face of such testimonies from your prophets, how can they be trusted? Joseph Smith himself proclaimed polytheism, and Brigham Young put his sermons on the same pedestal as scripture. I don't know about todays termonology, but back in the day this was called heresy!Whats the deal?
I believe we've already explained multiple times what "the deal" is. When a prophet speaks in his official capacity, he is speaking on behalf of God. When he is not, he is speaking as a man with his own opinions. How can they be trusted? By appealing to the authority of the Standard Works and through the witness of the Holy Ghost.
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deut. 18:20-22

Lets see, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young spoke what is contradictory to the Bible and false prophecies. So then, can they be called prophets?
Why don't you provide me with a few examples. It would make it a lot easier for me to address the issue than for you to just throw out a general statement. And, if you don't mind, stick to the Standard Works. You do know what they aren't don't you? :D
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
My defense is simply, if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were prophets, why would they write things that were not from God? Why would there prophecies not come true? Why? Refer to Deut 18:20-22.

Jonah was told by God to prophecy to the people of Nineveh, and to announce that the people would be destroyed in 40 days (Jonah 3:4). This was not a "conditional" prophesy. It wasn't a case of "unless they repent." It was just a straightforward statement of what was to happen. However, when the people repented, God chose to spare them. Jonah's reaction to God's changing His mind was to be "displeased ... exceedingly" and "very angry" (Jonah 4:1), presumably because it made him look bad in people's eyes. I don't think this means he was a false prophet. The book of Jonah is still part of God's word.

In Ezekiel, we find yet another example. In chapters 26 through 28, we read that Tyre was to be conquered, destroyed, and plundered by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. Tyre's wealth would go to Babylon (Ezek. 26:12). While Nebuchadnezzar's army did seize Tyre, the seige was not as severe as had been prophesied, since it resulted in a compromise or treaty rather than total destruction and plunder. Tyre was eventually destroyed, but not during the Babylonian siege. The Babylonian army definitely did not get the riches of Tyre as had been prophesied.

Your comments, please...
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
It was concluded they were not inspired by God, along with the authors of the books.
I would be fascinated to hear more about this, barnabus. Do you even know what books these are? Why would Paul's additional epistles to the Corinthians, the Ephesians and the Laodiceans have been rejected? What about Jude's other epistle? Would you mind taking the time to explain in greater detail what led the men who compiled today's Biblical canon to reject these as not having been inspired by God? There are well over a dozen books referred to by Biblical prophets in their own writings. Why would they have mentioned them if they were not inspired by God? Please enlighten me.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Squirt said:
I would be fascinated to hear more about this, barnabus. Do you even know what books these are? Why would Paul's additional epistles to the Corinthians, the Ephesians and the Laodiceans have been rejected? What about Jude's other epistle? Would you mind taking the time to explain in greater detail what led the men who compiled today's Biblical canon to reject these as not having been inspired by God? There are well over a dozen books referred to by Biblical prophets in their own writings. Why would they have mentioned them if they were not inspired by God? Please enlighten me.

Great questions. How can you trust the rest of what Paul and Jude wrote if he wrote so much that wasn't inspiried?
 

barnabus

Member
How sure are you the un-canonical documents were written by Paul and Jude? Jesus had already spoken of false prophets who would seek to invade the church. What is to say that had not already begun to happen?
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
How sure are you the un-canonical documents were written by Paul and Jude?
Well, because they are specifically mentioned in the canonical documents.

Jesus had already spoken of false prophets who would seek to invade the church. What is to say that had not already begun to happen?
Oh, it started happening very early on -- believe me!
 

barnabus

Member
Interesting.

In any of there writings(Paul or Jude), canon or no, did they boast that either of them did more than Jesus to keep a church together?

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409).

You yourself cannot testify that the apostles prophesy falsley, canon or other, as Joseph Smith most assuredly has done.

". . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . " (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 394.)

Did Paul or Jude, canon or other, proclaim polytheism to the church, as Joseph Smith has?

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).

Nay, I have yet to find anything written or creditted to Paul or Jude that even comes close to the heresy of the doctrines of Joseph Smith.
 

barnabus

Member
To the polytheism arguement I will also add:

"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).

As I have before stated.
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409).
Journal of Discourses - not LDS doctrine

". . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . " (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 394.)
Journal of Discourses - not LDS doctrine

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).
Journal of Discourses - not LDS doctrine.
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
barnabus said:
To the polytheism arguement I will also add:

"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).
Journal of Discourses - Not LDS doctrine
 

barnabus

Member
And with all this in mind, you still trust this man, who proclaimed such things after the so called "revelation" was given him from God. On what grounds can he be trusted?

As to Smith's statement about a race of people living on the moon, I found the source.-(The Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pages 263-264.)

Face it. There have been over sixty false prophecies of Joseph Smith, which have been documented, and it is easy to see that according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22 that Joseph Smith is not a prophet from God (and let us not forget his associate Brigham Young), which in turns means the foundation of the Mormon doctrine is false.

Example1- The Building of the New Temple
In D&C 84 (esp. vs.2-5, 31, 114-115), Smith prophesied in 1832 that a temple would be built by the generation then living in Independence, MO. during THAT generation. Allowing the widest possible latitude of 100 years for a generation, that still leaves the prophecy unfulfilled over 50 years late!

There still is no temple in Independence; although one is being commenced by the RLDS Church, a splinter off of Mormonism which the LDS church contends is a false cult! Not only that, the temple lot which Joseph Smith dedicated as the "only true site" has been owned for generations by a third Mormon splinter sect; and the Utah Mormons couldn't build a temple there if they wanted to!

Example 2- The Nauvoo House
In D&C 124.56-60, Smith prophesied that the Nauvoo House in Nauvoo, IL. would be in his family forever (1841). It did not remain in his family, and is not owned by them today. This makes for a very false prophecy.

Example 3- Old Testament Prophecies.
In the Pearl of Great Price (PGP), Joseph Smith-History (JSH) 1.40-41, (1823) Smith claimed that the angel Moroni told him that the prophecies in Isaiah 11 were "about to be fulfilled," and that those in Joel 2 were "soon to be" fulfilled. More than 165 years have passed and that interpretation of prophecy has not yet come to pass. Those prophecies certainly will be fulfilled, but Joseph Smith and his angel sure got their dates wrong!

Example 4- The Conversion of the Indian Peoples

In D&C 3.3 (1828) it says, "Remember, that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men." This verse is considered sacred scripture by Mormons; and that means that Mormons, logically, must apply it to their history and Joseph Smith's prophecies. If Smith's prophecies were frustrated, then those prophecies were the work of men, not of God!

D&C 3.16-20 says that the Lamanites (Indians) will be converted. For a century and a half, the LDS missionaries have been trying to convert their "Lamanite brothersî and have not done so. The vast majority of Indians are not Mormons, and most of the few who become LDS turn inactive. This has obviously not been fulfilled, after many years and spending vast amounts of money on programs to convert Indians.

Example 5- Gathering to Zion

D&C 57.1-3 (1831) identifies Independence, MO as the center place of Zion, the gathering place of the saintsóit is "the land of promise." This revelation failed because, according to D&C 3.3 cited above, any work which is of God could not be frustrated. This "gathering" in Zion was really frustrated, because the Mormons tried to gather there and were physically driven out! To this day, there are few Mormons there; and actually many, many more RLDS members by far! If God was behind this revelation, then the Mormons could not have been driven out by men.



 
Barnabus, I know you believe the LDS is not based on Christianity, the Holy Catholic Church also labels them as a cult on reasons i havent studied yet, but still this post was meant for them to answer questions i believe not to question there authenticity
 
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