The Strong Delusion

Thief said:

I think we are saying the same thing....

The quality of spirit is sought.
The peace of heaven is guarded.

So if the Earth becomes overrun by people that can't survive in the spirit...
then the population is corrupt and correction is required.

Of course, sooner or later, the extent of Man's ability here will play out.
Man will sooner or later fade away.

Click to expand...

The Scriptures are clear-- mankind has NO ability to save himself; therefore, only those who have choosen to follow GOD'S specified way, truth, and provision for Life will be allowed into that "peace of heaven/the new earth".

sincerly said:

The Scriptures are clear-- mankind has NO ability to save himself; therefore, only those who have choosen to follow GOD'S specified way, truth, and provision for Life will be allowed into that "peace of heaven/the new earth".

Click to expand...

Good. I would hate to see some heathen do-gooder cut the line ahead of a righteous, born-again murderer.

Originally Posted by sincerly
The Scriptures are clear-- mankind has NO ability to save himself; therefore, only those who have choosen to follow GOD'S specified way, truth, and provision for Life will be allowed into that "peace of heaven/the new earth".

Amechania said:

Good. I would hate to see some heathen do-gooder cut the line ahead of a righteous, born-again murderer.

Click to expand...

The Scriptures are clear on that point as well.
GOD is not the respecter of persons. All who acknowledge their sins/disobedience and repent of those issues and submit their wills to that of the Father will be assured of a place in HIS Kingdom.

sincerly said:

The Scriptures are clear-- mankind has NO ability to save himself; therefore, only those who have choosen to follow GOD'S specified way, truth, and provision for Life will be allowed into that "peace of heaven/the new earth".

Click to expand...

I see a subtle confusion.

We do not save ourselves.....our continuance is allowed.
But without some ability of our own....no continuance will BE allowed.

Can't be idle.

Originally Posted by sincerly
The Scriptures are clear-- mankind has NO ability to save himself; therefore, only those who have choosen to follow GOD'S specified way, truth, and provision for Life will be allowed into that "peace of heaven/the new earth".

Thief said:

I see a subtle confusion.

We do not save ourselves.....our continuance is allowed.
But without some ability of our own....no continuance will BE allowed.

Can't be idle.

Click to expand...

Hi thief, Your: """We do not save ourselves""" is correct. Also, your: """our continuance is allowed.""" is correct when one follows the specified method stated by GOD in the Scriptures.
Your:"""But without some ability of our own....no continuance will BE allowed.""" is also, correct.

Where is the """I see a subtle confusion."""??? It is in the thinking that GOD, the FATHER didn't send HIS SON, Jesus, to pay that ransom debt/ Death for the one who has confessed his guilt, repented of all such, accepted the offered gift of Life and totally surrendered to the Will of he Father-----that's the """without some ability of our own""".

Ps.46:10, "Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." That time is upon us--Revelations 22:12-- "Behold, I come quickly..."

sincerly said:

Originally Posted by sincerly
The Scriptures are clear-- mankind has NO ability to save himself; therefore, only those who have choosen to follow GOD'S specified way, truth, and provision for Life will be allowed into that "peace of heaven/the new earth".



Hi thief, Your: """We do not save ourselves""" is correct. Also, your: """our continuance is allowed.""" is correct when one follows the specified method stated by GOD in the Scriptures.
Your:"""But without some ability of our own....no continuance will BE allowed.""" is also, correct.

Where is the """I see a subtle confusion."""??? It is in the thinking that GOD, the FATHER didn't send HIS SON, Jesus, to pay that ransom debt/ Death for the one who has confessed his guilt, repented of all such, accepted the offered gift of Life and totally surrendered to the Will of he Father-----that's the """without some ability of our own""".

Ps.46:10, "Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." That time is upon us--Revelations 22:12-- "Behold, I come quickly..."

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's pretty much the jest of it.

I don't believe the Carpenter saved anyone by dying.
It did it by His parables.
Instruction of mind and heart.
That we might worthy of greater things.

If you have no ability for the lesser things, how then to be trusted with anything greater?

Originally Posted by sincerly
The Scriptures are clear-- mankind has NO ability to save himself; therefore, only those who have chosen to follow GOD'S specified way, truth, and provision for Life will be allowed into that "peace of heaven/the new earth".

Hi thief, Your: """We do not save ourselves""" is correct. Also, your: """our continuance is allowed.""" is correct when one follows the specified method stated by GOD in the Scriptures.
Your:"""But without some ability of our own....no continuance will BE allowed.""" is also, correct.

Where is the """I see a subtle confusion."""??? It is in the thinking that GOD, the FATHER didn't send HIS SON, Jesus, to pay that ransom debt/ Death for the one who has confessed his guilt, repented of all such, accepted the offered gift of Life and totally surrendered to the Will of he Father-----that's the """without some ability of our own""".

Ps.46:10, "Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." That time is upon us--Revelations 22:12-- "Behold, I come quickly..."

Thief said:

Yeah, that's pretty much the jest of it.

I don't believe the Carpenter saved anyone by dying.
It did it by His parables.
Instruction of mind and heart.
That we might worthy of greater things.

If you have no ability for the lesser things, how then to be trusted with anything greater?

Click to expand...

Hi Thief, since we both acknowledge that one can NOT save himself from the penalty of death---and that is clear in those Scriptures. Those same Scriptures declare that it is only by the shedding of blood(death) that propitiation from that death penalty is obtained. Those Scriptures acknowledge that Jesus Christ was that propitiation for all who have confessed their sins, repented of those sins and fully submitted their Will to Father.

One will not be worthy of greater things without being willing to accept HIS death so that one can have the promised eternal life where the "greater" experience is to be found.

I would agree the gospels hold the truth we all need....
that would be the teaching the Carpenter pronounced.

But I do not believe in scapegoating.
He may have been compared to a Lamb.....and then slaughtered...
but we will still be held to our words and deeds.

Man is not defiled by what enters the mouth.....but rather by what comes out.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....is a code of behavior.
It is also fair warning.

Thief said:

I would agree the gospels hold the truth we all need....
that would be the teaching the Carpenter pronounced.

Click to expand...

Thief, The "Gospels"/good news of salvation for mankind has been in the offering since "before the foundation of the world". It is recorded by Luke(and alluded to by others)24:17; 44-48 that Jesus revealed to the Disciples "all things written in the Scriptures concerning me".
Rev.13:8, Jesus is the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." 1Pet.1:20 confirms that fact.---and that Jesus Christ is the redeeming sacrifice.
And Jesus acknowledged, John 18:37, "...for this cause came I into the world."

One more thought/scripture, Heb.4:2, the Scriptures were the "Gospel" of the O.T. "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. "

Thief said:

But I do not believe in scapegoating.
He may have been compared to a Lamb.....and then slaughtered...
but we will still be held to our words and deeds.

Click to expand...

In the annual day of atonement festival, Jesus was the "Lord's goat"(died for the sins of the people)---never the "scapegoat".---that is the world's "adversary"/Satan.
Didn't the sinner bring his offering to the sanctuary--confess his sins; cut the animal's throat anf the priest took the blood for an atonement for those confessed sins--cleansing the record?
Those who failed to perform the requirement was "held to their condemning words and deeds."

Thief said:

Man is not defiled by what enters the mouth.....but rather by what comes out.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....is a code of behavior.
It is also fair warning.

Click to expand...

Both are true in the context and audience to which they were given.
Dirty hands (per se) do not defile, but the eating of "unclean animals" was not the topic and understood by the Jewish audience spoken to that day and recorded for all to read.
Verbal hatred, and misconceptions(lies); etc. do defile.

sincerly said:

Peace Ken, Yes, but, "in the end" it will be to late to repent and overcome one's delusional state of "non-belief". Daniel 7:25 is God's first expression of this attitude(He that knows the end from the beginning). Paul acknowledged it in the Church at Ephesus with this admonishing, Acts 20:28-31, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."
Did it happen as GOD predicted--said to Daniel. Yes, GOD is Truth and true to HIS Word.
In 2Thess.2:3-4, Paul is reminding those who misunderstood Jesus' "I will come again". "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Then John in Revelation 2:4. Says this about Ephesus. "nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Why was the strong delusion sent/given (2Thess.2:10) because "they received not the Love of the Truth, that they might be saved"? Jesus Christ the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world." The hearers and the doers of HIS Plan.

Click to expand...

Shalom sincerly, I've taken a little while to respond to you. First, what Paul warned DID happen, and the Strong Delusion was sent almost as soon as the Pillars of the Temple departed. What you believe is the result of those deceivers who came in and turn the Grace of Elohim INTO a license to sin, thus promoting Spiritual Welfare ("Jesus dying in your place to pay the penalty of your sin.") It is you sincerly that have accepted the Strong Delusion, hook, line, and sinker.

Please, learn to love the Truth of the Gospel, which is, YOU, as a sinner, did slay your offering (with the help of wicked men), and caused Him to stand up upon the Cross, in a place that He should NEVER have been made to stand. So it is your heartfelt responsibility to confess that Yeshua is YOUR sacrifice, and that you will do you best to no longer cause Him to suffer by following a life of iniquity, but rather to turn from those iniquities. This was/is the PLAN of Elohim in teaching and training mankind to obey and follow His Will. He is showing that suffering for a good cause (turning sinners FROM their sin) is His goal in teaching us how to follow Him and take up our OWN Cross to help others. It's a pretty simple plan and it works as He FIRST had to consign us to sin/disobedience, before He could show us mercy in TURNING us FROM that sin/disobedience (Rom 11:32 & Acts 3:26), and this truly will keep us faithful to Him throughout ALL of Eternity. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

sincerly said:

Thief, The "Gospels"/good news of salvation for mankind has been in the offering since "before the foundation of the world". It is recorded by Luke(and alluded to by others)24:17; 44-48 that Jesus revealed to the Disciples "all things written in the Scriptures concerning me".
Rev.13:8, Jesus is the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." 1Pet.1:20 confirms that fact.---and that Jesus Christ is the redeeming sacrifice.
And Jesus acknowledged, John 18:37, "...for this cause came I into the world."

One more thought/scripture, Heb.4:2, the Scriptures were the "Gospel" of the O.T. "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. "




In the annual day of atonement festival, Jesus was the "Lord's goat"(died for the sins of the people)---never the "scapegoat".---that is the world's "adversary"/Satan.
Didn't the sinner bring his offering to the sanctuary--confess his sins; cut the animal's throat anf the priest took the blood for an atonement for those confessed sins--cleansing the record?
Those who failed to perform the requirement was "held to their condemning words and deeds."



Both are true in the context and audience to which they were given.
Dirty hands (per se) do not defile, but the eating of "unclean animals" was not the topic and understood by the Jewish audience spoken to that day and recorded for all to read.
Verbal hatred, and misconceptions(lies); etc. do defile.

Click to expand...

I cannot agree.

When the spirit becomes aware of it's fault and the fault will end in death...
denial sets in.

Realizing that fault brings death....something must die....
Man turned to killing lesser creatures to appease the Lord God.
If something must die...let it be something less.

This act of denial doesn't work.

We are held to our sayings and our deeds.
Fault will end in failure.

The only redemption....'Sin no more'.

Originally Posted by sincerly
Thief, The "Gospels"/good news of salvation for mankind has been in the offering since "before the foundation of the world". It is recorded by Luke(and alluded to by others)24:17; 44-48 that Jesus revealed to the Disciples "all things written in the Scriptures concerning me".
Rev.13:8, Jesus is the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." 1Pet.1:20 confirms that fact.---and that Jesus Christ is the redeeming sacrifice.
And Jesus acknowledged, John 18:37, "...for this cause came I into the world."

One more thought/scripture, Heb.4:2, the Scriptures were the "Gospel" of the O.T. "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. "

In the annual day of atonement festival, Jesus was the "Lord's goat"(died for the sins of the people)---never the "scapegoat".---that is the world's "adversary"/Satan.
Didn't the sinner bring his offering to the sanctuary--confess his sins; cut the animal's throat anf the priest took the blood for an atonement for those confessed sins--cleansing the record?
Those who failed to perform the requirement was "held to their condemning words and deeds."

Both are true in the context and audience to which they were given.
Dirty hands (per se) do not defile, but the eating of "unclean animals" was not the topic and understood by the Jewish audience spoken to that day and recorded for all to read.
Verbal hatred, and misconceptions(lies); etc. do defile.

Thief said:

I cannot agree.

When the spirit becomes aware of it's fault and the fault will end in death...
denial sets in.

Realizing that fault brings death....something must die....
Man turned to killing lesser creatures to appease the Lord God.
If something must die...let it be something less.

This act of denial doesn't work.

We are held to our sayings and our deeds.
Fault will end in failure.

The only redemption....'Sin no more'.

Click to expand...

Hi thief, Your: """this act of denial doesn't work""" is correct.

However,

When the spirit becomes aware of it's fault and the fault will end in death...denial sets in.

Click to expand...

in in controdiction to

We are held to our sayings and our deeds.
Fault will end in failure.

The only redemption....'Sin no more'.

Click to expand...

The reason being whem one sees and ackowledges the "fault"/SIN the "wages" is death---not just "sin no more".
The Scriptures state that "Propitiation for sins" comes with the shedding of Jesus' blood at the cross.
That is the reason that those who fail to acknowledge their Sins and fail to bring that symbolic animal as a sacrificed died in their sins. Today(scripturally), the true sacrifice has been offered two thousand years ago. By Faith we acknowledge that "Gift of life" for ALL who confess and repent submitting to do the Will of GOD the Father. (The sin no more.)

Originally Posted by sincerly
Peace Ken, Yes, but, "in the end" it will be to late to repent and overcome one's delusional state of "non-belief". Daniel 7:25 is God's first expression of this attitude(He that knows the end from the beginning). Paul acknowledged it in the Church at Ephesus with this admonishing, Acts 20:28-31, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."
Did it happen as GOD predicted--said to Daniel. Yes, GOD is Truth and true to HIS Word.
In 2Thess.2:3-4, Paul is reminding those who misunderstood Jesus' "I will come again". "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Then John in Revelation 2:4. Says this about Ephesus. "nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Why was the strong delusion sent/given (2Thess.2:10) because "they received not the Love of the Truth, that they might be saved"?
By--Jesus Christ the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world." The hearers and the doers of HIS Plan.

Ken Brown said:

Shalom sincerly, I've taken a little while to respond to you. First, what Paul warned DID happen, and the Strong Delusion was sent almost as soon as the Pillars of the Temple departed.

Click to expand...

Peace Ken, The "strong delusion" wasn't/isn't new in its existence And it was given to Daniel and quoted by Paul. It was seen in the rebellion of the Angels in heaven to Lucifer's/Satan's claims; with Adam and Eve; In the antediluvians; at Sinai; in the Prophets; At Christ's Crucifixion; in the falling away of the church age(early and continuously).

Ken Brown said:

What you believe is the result of those deceivers who came in and turn the Grace of Elohim INTO a license to sin, thus promoting Spiritual Welfare ("Jesus dying in your place to pay the penalty of your sin.") It is you sincerly that have accepted the Strong Delusion, hook, line, and sinker.

Click to expand...

Ken, those early Church fathers were doing the same thing that Jewish Church father had done---placed their own "traditions and commandments" in place of those which the Creator GOD had given---Both could be said to have turned GOD'S principles into "a license to sin".
The "Spiritual warfare" is the conflict of GOD"s plan for salvation via the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus in dying in the place of the Repentant sinner and those who believe that the "fig leaves"(or any symbolic reason) "covered"/blotted out their sins.

How many times do I need to tell you that---Yes---Jesus Christ's death upon the cross did pay my(and all's) Sin debt.

Ken Brown said:

Please, learn to love the Truth of the Gospel, which is, YOU, as a sinner, did slay your offering (with the help of wicked men), and caused Him to stand up upon the Cross, in a place that He should NEVER have been made to stand. So it is your heartfelt responsibility to confess that Yeshua is YOUR sacrifice, and that you will do you best to no longer cause Him to suffer by following a life of iniquity, but rather to turn from those iniquities. This was/is the PLAN of Elohim in teaching and training mankind to obey and follow His Will. He is showing that suffering for a good cause (turning sinners FROM their sin) is His goal in teaching us how to follow Him and take up our OWN Cross to help others. It's a pretty simple plan and it works as He FIRST had to consign us to sin/disobedience, before He could show us mercy in TURNING us FROM that sin/disobedience (Rom 11:32 & Acts 3:26), and this truly will keep us faithful to Him throughout ALL of Eternity. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

Click to expand...

Everyone who hopes to be in the heavenly Kingdom of GOD will confess their sins and repent thereof. Then live in obedience to the Will of the Father.
Jesus Christ's sacrifice will not cleanse the unconfessing, unrepenting sinner. That person will suffer the second death.
GOD didn't have to "consign us to sin/disobedience" because Adam and Eve choose to be disobedient.
Jesus is no longer suffering---that was a once experience--Heb.9:23-28. But that Sacrifice is still available to all who confess and repent, thereby, submitting to the Will of the Father.

sincerly said:

Hi thief, Your: """this act of denial doesn't work""" is correct.

However,
in in controdiction to

The reason being whem one sees and ackowledges the "fault"/SIN the "wages" is death---not just "sin no more".
The Scriptures state that "Propitiation for sins" comes with the shedding of Jesus' blood at the cross.
That is the reason that those who fail to acknowledge their Sins and fail to bring that symbolic animal as a sacrificed died in their sins. Today(scripturally), the true sacrifice has been offered two thousand years ago. By Faith we acknowledge that "Gift of life" for ALL who confess and repent submitting to do the Will of GOD the Father. (The sin no more.)

Click to expand...

I saw the gospel differently.
When upon healing or giving instruction, the Carpenter rarely moved to mention of sacrifice.

He would simply say....'sin no more.'

It has occurred to me....
Sacrifice is made on each occasion of offense.
One fellow could slaughter his way through an entire pen of sheep!

Seems to me....'sin no more' is a fair warning.
If you hold to your perspective....
The sacrifice has been made.
Repeat offense has no opportunity for another.

I see no means to set aside the things we say or do.
The angelic are watching.
I suspect we will be dealt with....in the manner of our own minds and heart.

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi thief, Your: """this act of denial doesn't work""" is correct.

The reason being when one sees and acknowledges the "fault"/SIN the "wages" is death---not just "sin no more".
The Scriptures state that "Propitiation for sins" comes with the shedding of Jesus' blood at the cross.
That is the reason that those who fail to acknowledge their Sins and fail to bring that symbolic animal as a sacrificed died in their sins. Today(scripturally), the true sacrifice has been offered two thousand years ago. By Faith we acknowledge that "Gift of life" for ALL who confess and repent submitting to do the Will of GOD the Father. (The sin no more.)

Thief said:

I saw the gospel differently.
When upon healing or giving instruction, the Carpenter rarely moved to mention of sacrifice.
He would simply say....'sin no more.'

Click to expand...

Hi Thief, The audience was for the most part Jewish. And they were aware of the stipulated sacrifices for sins as there were two daily sacrifices(morning and evening). The healings were not always due to sinning as Jesus acknowledged.
Jesus being the promised sacrifice and Lord God could say, "your sins are forgiven--go and sin no more".
The thief on the cross understood the power of Jesus and the Kingdom of heaven in those last moments and by his faith, repentance and confessed guilt he was then assured that he would have a place in that kingdom.

Thief said:

It has occurred to me....
Sacrifice is made on each occasion of offense.
One fellow could slaughter his way through an entire pen of sheep!

Click to expand...

True, Remember, how many times was Peter told to forgive his trespassing brother?
The Creator GOD is merciful, long-suffering, and Gracious--Sometimes us stubborn, hard-headed humans take a long time in seeing the truth and Repenting.

Thief said:

Seems to me....'sin no more' is a fair warning.
If you hold to your perspective....
The sacrifice has been made.
Repeat offense has no opportunity for another.

Click to expand...

We war against our lustful desires--. The "I'm worth it" attitude ends in disappointment in the long run/end. Paul was right in the --I die daily---"crucifying of self".
Yes, the Sacrifice has been made, However, As long as there is life, Choice is possible and as 1John 2:1-2 states---"if any man sins..." Repentance and confession is again necessary. But, has that action "grieved the Holy Spirit?"

Thief said:

I see no means to set aside the things we say or do.
The angelic are watching.
I suspect we will be dealt with....in the manner of our own minds and heart.

Click to expand...

See above; should one place one's self beyond redemption by one's arrogant/defiant attitude----yes, one will be dealt with in those terms.

sincerly said:

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi thief, Your: """this act of denial doesn't work""" is correct.

The reason being when one sees and acknowledges the "fault"/SIN the "wages" is death---not just "sin no more".
The Scriptures state that "Propitiation for sins" comes with the shedding of Jesus' blood at the cross.
That is the reason that those who fail to acknowledge their Sins and fail to bring that symbolic animal as a sacrificed died in their sins. Today(scripturally), the true sacrifice has been offered two thousand years ago. By Faith we acknowledge that "Gift of life" for ALL who confess and repent submitting to do the Will of GOD the Father. (The sin no more.)



Hi Thief, The audience was for the most part Jewish. And they were aware of the stipulated sacrifices for sins as there were two daily sacrifices(morning and evening). The healings were not always due to sinning as Jesus acknowledged.
Jesus being the promised sacrifice and Lord God could say, "your sins are forgiven--go and sin no more".
The thief on the cross understood the power of Jesus and the Kingdom of heaven in those last moments and by his faith, repentance and confessed guilt he was then assured that he would have a place in that kingdom.



True, Remember, how many times was Peter told to forgive his trespassing brother?
The Creator GOD is merciful, long-suffering, and Gracious--Sometimes us stubborn, hard-headed humans take a long time in seeing the truth and Repenting.



We war against our lustful desires--. The "I'm worth it" attitude ends in disappointment in the long run/end. Paul was right in the --I die daily---"crucifying of self".
Yes, the Sacrifice has been made, However, As long as there is life, Choice is possible and as 1John 2:1-2 states---"if any man sins..." Repentance and confession is again necessary. But, has that action "grieved the Holy Spirit?"



See above; should one place one's self beyond redemption by one's arrogant/defiant attitude----yes, one will be dealt with in those terms.

Click to expand...

I think we are making the same point from different pulpits.
The only difference....
I believe we stand in responsibility for what we say and do.

The relief of sin is not the 'sacrifice on the cross'.

The relief is in forgiveness.

If the angelic allow us to walk among them....it's not for the Carpenter having been crucified.
That act is cause for retribution.
Swords drawn....how dare any talking ape consider a brutal death unto the Son of God a good thing?

If the angelic allow us to walk among them...it's for cause of their forgiveness.
It would for cause that we have learned to walk with grace....as they do.

sincerly said:

Originally Posted by sincerly
Peace Ken, Yes, but, "in the end" it will be to late to repent and overcome one's delusional state of "non-belief". Daniel 7:25 is God's first expression of this attitude(He that knows the end from the beginning). Paul acknowledged it in the Church at Ephesus with this admonishing, Acts 20:28-31, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."
Did it happen as GOD predicted--said to Daniel. Yes, GOD is Truth and true to HIS Word.
In 2Thess.2:3-4, Paul is reminding those who misunderstood Jesus' "I will come again". "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Then John in Revelation 2:4. Says this about Ephesus. "nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Why was the strong delusion sent/given (2Thess.2:10) because "they received not the Love of the Truth, that they might be saved"?
By--Jesus Christ the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world." The hearers and the doers of HIS Plan.

Peace Ken, The "strong delusion" wasn't/isn't new in its existence And it was given to Daniel and quoted by Paul. It was seen in the rebellion of the Angels in heaven to Lucifer's/Satan's claims; with Adam and Eve; In the antediluvians; at Sinai; in the Prophets; At Christ's Crucifixion; in the falling away of the church age(early and continuously).

Ken, those early Church fathers were doing the same thing that Jewish Church father had done---placed their own "traditions and commandments" in place of those which the Creator GOD had given---Both could be said to have turned GOD'S principles into "a license to sin".
The "Spiritual warfare" is the conflict of GOD"s plan for salvation via the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus in dying in the place of the Repentant sinner and those who believe that the "fig leaves"(or any symbolic reason) "covered"/blotted out their sins.

How many times do I need to tell you that---Yes---Jesus Christ's death upon the cross did pay my(and all's) Sin debt.

Everyone who hopes to be in the heavenly Kingdom of GOD will confess their sins and repent thereof. Then live in obedience to the Will of the Father.
Jesus Christ's sacrifice will not cleanse the unconfessing, unrepenting sinner. That person will suffer the second death.
GOD didn't have to "consign us to sin/disobedience" because Adam and Eve choose to be disobedient.
Jesus is no longer suffering---that was a once experience--Heb.9:23-28. But that Sacrifice is still available to all who confess and repent, thereby, submitting to the Will of the Father.

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Shalom sincerly, I'm not certain you really followed or understood my point about "Spiritual Welfare"? Why is that? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Originally Posted by sincerly

Hi Thief, The audience was for the most part Jewish. And they were aware of the stipulated sacrifices for sins as there were two daily sacrifices(morning and evening). The healings were not always due to sinning as Jesus acknowledged.
Jesus being the promised sacrifice and Lord God could say, "your sins are forgiven--go and sin no more".
The thief on the cross understood the power of Jesus and the Kingdom of heaven in those last moments and by his faith, repentance and confessed guilt he was then assured that he would have a place in that kingdom.

See above; should one place one's self beyond redemption by one's arrogant/defiant attitude----yes, one will be dealt with in those terms.

Thief said:

I think we are making the same point from different pulpits.
The only difference....
I believe we stand in responsibility for what we say and do.

The relief of sin is not the 'sacrifice on the cross'.

The relief is in forgiveness.

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Hi thief, It can not be the "same point" because you are not seeing what the messages of Eph.2:8-10 and 1:4 is saying in association to Jesus in John 3:16.
One walks in freedom from the penalty because Jesus Christ paid that sin penalty that was rightly mine. Now One is to live the "spiritual life" in love to GOD and neighbor. Praise GOD the Father for HIS Grace, Mercy, and Forgiveness.

Thief said:

If the angelic allow us to walk among them....it's not for the Carpenter having been crucified.
That act is cause for retribution.
Swords drawn....how dare any talking ape consider a brutal death unto the Son of God a good thing?

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Thief, I'm sure that the obedient Angel's of GOD do not consider
the redeemed of God as "talking apes". They are well aware that the Creator GOD made Mankind in the "image of GOD".

Thief said:

If the angelic allow us to walk among them...it's for cause of their forgiveness.
It would for cause that we have learned to walk with grace....as they do.

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Only those who have had their sin debt paid by the "blood of the Lamb(Jesus)" will have the opportunity to walk among the Angels of heaven.

sincerly said:

Originally Posted by sincerly

Hi Thief, The audience was for the most part Jewish. And they were aware of the stipulated sacrifices for sins as there were two daily sacrifices(morning and evening). The healings were not always due to sinning as Jesus acknowledged.
Jesus being the promised sacrifice and Lord God could say, "your sins are forgiven--go and sin no more".
The thief on the cross understood the power of Jesus and the Kingdom of heaven in those last moments and by his faith, repentance and confessed guilt he was then assured that he would have a place in that kingdom.

See above; should one place one's self beyond redemption by one's arrogant/defiant attitude----yes, one will be dealt with in those terms.



Hi thief, It can not be the "same point" because you are not seeing what the messages of Eph.2:8-10 and 1:4 is saying in association to Jesus in John 3:16.
One walks in freedom from the penalty because Jesus Christ paid that sin penalty that was rightly mine. Now One is to live the "spiritual life" in love to GOD and neighbor. Praise GOD the Father for HIS Grace, Mercy, and Forgiveness.



Thief, I'm sure that the obedient Angel's of GOD do not consider
the redeemed of God as "talking apes". They are well aware that the Creator GOD made Mankind in the "image of GOD".



Only those who have had their sin debt paid by the "blood of the Lamb(Jesus)" will have the opportunity to walk among the Angels of heaven.

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I'm more to the mindset....'what is Man that God is mindful of him?'

I have a storyline I grew up with....not sure of the source....I can't find it in scripture....except that it does refer to Psalms.

'....and God made Man a little less than the angles.'


With this starting point in mind I then lean to the telling of a war in heaven.

One third of the angelic lost their positions in heaven...for an argument about something that looks like us.
They want us dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their brothers....for an argument about something that looks like us.
They might not care.

How would you feel?....a talking ape is allowed to stand where your fallen brother once stood?

It's not about sin.

It's about grace.

I don't think it's proper to use killing to punish anyone, regardless. As for spanking, no, it's not.