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Difference between love is not provoke and love does not provoke

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I do not disagree with you. Is it proper to teach it one way if it was written another way? I mean if when it was written it had a pure meaning but it is being taught different than what was intended would it be fair to the writer of it? If the writer was still alive would it cause bad feelings in him to be misinterpreted AND taught?

It is not about what people think. It is about what people teach. What is taught should be true. Do you agree? Do you think the writer of it believes it should be taught as it was intended to be?

I agree on the level that one is, its like the parables that Jesus used in his teachings, the disciples couldn't work out why he spoke in that way, he more or less told them that they were at a level that wasn't ready for the pure truth.

I'm sure that Paul wouldn't be offended by someone seeing his words differently, this is what he wanted, for each and everyone to think for themselves using the sprit within, and not just listening to second-hand teachings, for if you don't see it from within that is where you will stay.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree on the level that one is, its like the parables that Jesus used in his teachings, the disciples couldn't work out why he spoke in that way, he more or less told them that they were at a level that wasn't ready for the pure truth.

I'm sure that Paul wouldn't be offended by someone seeing his words differently, this is what he wanted, for each and everyone to think for themselves using the sprit within, and not just listening to second-hand teachings, for if you don't see it from within that is where you will stay.

Do you believe "God is love"? Then to know God would be to know love. If a person does not know what is written about what love means he doesn't know love. If he doesn't know love he doesn't know God.

God's will is that all men be save and come to know the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4 What is the truth? It is who is it. Jesus is the truth. Jesus reflects the glory of God.

There is no darkness in truth. But he who says it does not matter what is written, it matters what you think it means, is in the dark.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Paul said "if I don't have love I am nothing" 1 Corinthians 13:2. He did not say if his manners were off he is nothing. Acting in an angry way is about manners. Caring about the feelings of others is love. I never said caring about other people's feeling has nothing to do with letting anger out. It does. I am saying it is not what 1 Corinthians 13:5 is about. If God is really talking to us using scripture is it true "it doesn't matter what it means"? Of course it matters what it means. Does it matter that you hear it or not? I don't know.

It matters that it is being taught right not wrong.

If a blind man leads a blind man they both will fall into the pit. If you can't see what love is OK. But what is right about teaching it wrong?
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Do you believe "God is love"? Then to know God would be to know love. If a person does not know what is written about what love means he doesn't know love. If he doesn't know love he doesn't know God.

God's will is that all men be save and come to know the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4 What is the truth? It is who is it. Jesus is the truth. Jesus reflects the glory of God.

There is no darkness in truth. But he who says it does not matter what is written, it matters what you think it means, is in the dark.

For me personally its not knowing what love is, but being love, living love. If we just read scripture and try to imitate it, that's all it will ever be, an imitation, to truly know God is to live in God, not separate, the mind separates us from who we truly are.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Paul said "if I don't have love I am nothing" 1 Corinthians 13:2. He did not say if his manners were off he is nothing. Acting in an angry way is about manners. Caring about the feelings of others is love. I never said caring about other people's feeling has nothing to do with letting anger out. It does. I am saying it is not what 1 Corinthians 13:5 is about. If God is really talking to us using scripture is it true "it doesn't matter what it means"? Of course it matters what it means. Does it matter that you hear it or not? I don't know.

It matters that it is being taught right not wrong.

If a blind man leads a blind man they both will fall into the pit. If you can't see what love is OK. But what is right about teaching it wrong?

But if the blind man that is trying to lead the other and the other isn't blind, then the other see's what truly is.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For me personally its not knowing what love is, but being love, living love. If we just read scripture and try to imitate it, that's all it will ever be, an imitation, to truly know God is to live in God, not separate, the mind separates us from who we truly are.

This is an excellant observation imo. frubal
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But if the blind man that is trying to lead the other and the other isn't blind, then the other see's what truly is.

Yes it it is a kindness of the sighted one. But why is the blind one leading?

A question please. The other one would see what truely is. Is the other one the sighted one or the blind one? If it is the sighted one how does walking with a blind one accenuate sight? And if it is the blind one huh?
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your strength each day would be for not getting angry because love does not get angry.
False. Whoever says that anger is a sin, or that love cannot get angry is mistaken. What we do with anger can be either used for good, or for bad. People mistake the emotion, with the actions because the emotion is powerful.

I heard the term "fierce compassion". It is through love governing the expression of anger that we allow the destruction of an injustice in order for good to be served. We can forcefully attack a problem that harms others through becoming upset ourselves at the situation. But the huge difference is that we act upon that upset, upon that anger with control, tempered by compassion towards the perpetrator as opposed to exacting upon them feelings of hatred and vengeance seeking retribution to satisfy some angry desire to destroy another. Love does not seek another's destruction, it seeks to provoke and admonish to do good. Do you see the difference?

The focus should not be on suppressing anger, but rather tempering anger with compassion. Find Peace in yourself, and when anger arises, you see through that center of Peace and act with that anger through that Heart, as opposed to your own sense of truth and justice through the limited eyes of the ego which acts as a child selfishly wishing to hurt those who hurt you.

Does Jesus want you to live your life controlling the emotion of anger in yourself? OR does he want you to live a life that is making others happy, not angry?
Making others happy is not the goal. Those that seek to do this are doing so for themselves, to make people happy with them. And subsequently they do not ever actually deal with anger in themselves in productive ways, but rather seek to suppress and deny anger. Which then results in passive-aggressive behaviors towards others which are anything but loving. Pity is the near-enemy of compassion, because it masquerades as love, allowing someone to think that is love when it is rather selfishness hiding itself, masking itself. It is merely the "imitation" of love, and not real love.

Love does not willing cause others anger. 1 Corinthians 13:5
I don't see those words in that verse you cite. It simply says, " [love] does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered." By "is not provoked", it simply means to contrast with the self-facing ego which cannot see the other and simply reacts from provocation to defend itself, its pride, by harming another to protect itself. That does not mean someone may not be moved to anger at seeing injustice being inflicted upon another and through "fierce compassion", seek to correct the wrong.

There is such a bad idea of what a "saint" is supposed to look like. It's a myth, and an unhealthy one on top of it.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
False. Whoever says that anger is a sin, or that love cannot get angry is mistaken. What we do with anger can be either used for good, or for bad. People mistake the emotion, with the actions because the emotion is powerful.

I heard the term "fierce compassion". It is through love governing the expression of anger that we allow the destruction of an injustice in order for good to be served. We can forcefully attack a problem that harms others through becoming upset ourselves at the situation. But the huge difference is that we act upon that upset, upon that anger with control, tempered by compassion towards the perpetrator as opposed to exacting upon them feelings of hatred and vengeance seeking retribution to satisfy some angry desire to destroy another. Love does not seek another's destruction, it seeks to provoke and admonish to do good. Do you see the difference?

The focus should not be on suppressing anger, but rather tempering anger with compassion. Find Peace in yourself, and when anger arises, you see through that center of Peace and act with that anger through that Heart, as opposed to your own sense of truth and justice through the limited eyes of the ego which acts as a child selfishly wishing to hurt those who hurt you.


Making others happy is not the goal. Those that seek to do this are doing so for themselves, to make people happy with them. And subsequently they do not ever actually deal with anger in themselves in productive ways, but rather seek to suppress and deny anger. Which then results in passive-aggressive behaviors towards others which are anything but loving. Pity is the near-enemy of compassion, because it masquerades as love, allowing someone to think that is love when it is rather selfishness hiding itself, masking itself. It is merely the "imitation" of love, and not real love.


I don't see those words in that verse you cite. It simply says, " [love] does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered." By "is not provoked", it simply means to contrast with the self-facing ego which cannot see the other and simply reacts from provocation to defend itself, its pride, by harming another to protect itself. That does not mean someone may not be moved to anger at seeing injustice being inflicted upon another and through "fierce compassion", seek to correct the wrong.

There is such a bad idea of what a "saint" is supposed to look like. It's a myth, and an unhealthy one on top of it.

This is all very good. I meant by 'make others happy' is to be refusing to do the opposite which is what most people do and is called provocation. The will to do good should be greater than the will to do bad. It is bad to be the cause of other peoples' anger. Especially if it is the other's person's righteous anger. Do you not agree with this?

For instance the rule some religions have of shunning is causing much anger and heart ache in the one who is shunned. I do not want to get into a debate about righteous shunning and unrighteous shunning. (I don't believe in either one). The act of shunning another person for no other reason than for a difference of opinion is BREAKING an aspect of love which is love does not conscientiously cause another distress, which usually results in anger especially when it is on going, which it is in the case of shunning. A person who is shunned is able to stop the shunning if he will relent. This makes him angry. But it is righteous anger because nobody should rule another person's thoughts.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'll play that senerio out both ways.

This is the other way: In case Paul wrote love is not provoked then in the case of shunning he has given a believer in that scripture license (in the shunner's imagination) to continue avoiding the person whose opinions make him angry. If the shunner were to invite the shunned back into his life, he would be in danger of being angry (consciously or unconsciously) They do get angry. If God through Paul says "love is not easily angered" then the person believing it will naturally avoid people with a difference of opinion. It's true, you know. They really do that and are encouraged to do it more fully by their leaders.

But if they hear Paul saying "love does not provoke" they would have to put scripture ahead of the command to shun as shunning causes a person to feel she is being provoked and love does not do that.

They are actually taught that shunning is the best way to love a wayward loved one because it will bring the lost one back to the shunners.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What breaks up some loving marriages that are not broken up by adultery?

One spouse feels he or she is not being loved. The feeling of not being loved is a negative emotion. What causes the negative emotion? The causing of negative emotion is called provocation which is related to the word "provoke".

So the provoking of a spouse eventually causes the provoking back in either harsh words or quiting. It turns into a fight or a breaking up.

A believer in the Bible (as written) hears "love is not provoked". What is the one who is being tempted by provocative behavior in his or her spouse suppose to think about it if it keeps happening? He doesn't love me or I do not love him? If you believe 1 Corinthians means "love is not provoked" it becomes the provoked one's problem. If it means both love is not provoked AND love does not provoke the only conclusion the couple can honestly reach is we don't love each other any more. You making me angry means I don't love you because love is not easily angered and you making me angry means you do not love me because love does not does not do that.

Wouldn't it be much easiler to resolve the issue if it was just ONE issue? Everyone making it mean both is making it TWO issues. And anyone making it mean love is not provoked is making it an issue for the one provoked when really it is the provoker who needs to resolve it.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Yes it it is a kindness of the sighted one. But why is the blind one leading?

A question please. The other one would see what truely is. Is the other one the sighted one or the blind one? If it is the sighted one how does walking with a blind one accenuate sight? And if it is the blind one huh?

Well an example, I was in my church for over 17 years, it took me all that time to realize they were wrong about being Gods chosen few, they preached that they knew the true God, and what this God wanted from us. THey believed they had sight of what God wanted, but I finally realized that they were blind, so I walked away.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Love is not provoked puts the burden caused by all heated disagreements on the one who is being attacked. Love does not provok means it does not attack. Isn't it true love does not look for a fight? Which of the aspects of love covers that fact please?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am able to deal OK with grasping "Love is not provoked". Please explain Zephaniah 1:18 in the light of 1 Corinthians 13:5 please.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath." In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth. Zephaniah 1:18

does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 1 Cor 13:5

Is God not lOVE?
 
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