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Voting for Kerry is now considered a sin.

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
kerry is not that bad. hes not a communist. communist russia were leftist radicals. hitler was a rightist radical.

both bush and kerry are on opposite sides of the spectrum.

i dont know how people can say that kerry is bad and should confess it like a sin. how do they know how God feels about it? its funny really, people depend on others for opinions and are soo heavily influenced. the church is only doing that because they are who they are supposed to be, conservatives. when im religious, im conservative. but hey, with politics, its a different matter. the church has just been shown that its a political power by the way it influences its members to vote for bush. propaganda. sigh. now people will think that if they vote for kerry, they do not love God. how do they know? why do people force God on thier side???????? people! argh.
 

retrorich

SUPER NOT-A-MOD
I understand that if the clergy of a church tells its member how they should or should not vote, this represents a violation of the law, and can cause the church's tax-free status to be terminated. I certainly hope that happens in this case.
 
Gerani1248 said:
hitler was a rightist radical.
Hitler was not a rightist radical. He was a fascist dictator who claimed to work for the welfare of the people. Also one of the words in the full form of NAZI mean Socialism or Socialist. Hitler shook hands with communists. He was one of the last persons on earth who would favor right-wing policies and capitalism.
 

FyreBrigidIce

Returning Noob
Whoa! I had to remind myself that I am not in the Debate rooms I used to chat in. I was almost going to be sarcastic with my reply to this thread.

All I can say now is.... So much for separation of Church and State. If I get a chance, I will have to check and see what laws govern this so I can have a more educated position.

Other than that, I now close with.... I am voting for Kerry no matter what. :):)

Brandy aka FyreBrigidIce
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
thomasedison said:
Hitler was not a rightist radical. He was a fascist dictator who claimed to work for the welfare of the people. Also one of the words in the full form of NAZI mean Socialism or Socialist. Hitler shook hands with communists. He was one of the last persons on earth who would favor right-wing policies and capitalism.
I think most historians would agree that Hitler was a right-wing nutcase. The fact he shook hands with the communists (are you refering to the pact with Moscow?) did not prevent him from sending communists to concentration camps, nor from invading the Soviet Union when he decided to break his pact with Moscow.

You may be confused about this because the ideology of the Nazi party changed after the Nazi's came to power. They were at first against large corporations, but later got into bed with them because they needed the large corporations to produce arms. Also, you may be confused about this because in general the extreme right and the extreme left tend to resemble each other more than they do the middle.

At any rate, neither Kerry nor Bush is anywhere near the policies of Hitler (nor Stalin), political rhetoric notwithstanding.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Wait a second.

A Catholic friend of mine just said the Pope is against the war in Iraq.

Is this true? If it is, why aren't people confessing about voting for Bush?
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
yes, thats what i thought. hitler was a rightwing nutcase. not a commi...

sigh, the pope says many things. are they of God? who knows. this man is no special than a devout buddhist. he was elected into power by a group of other powerful cardinals. the church is clearly a political organization.
 

Katholish

Member
Well, this topic seemed in sore need of a Catholic to explain some things.

There are 5 questions that seem to be at the heart of the current question regarding the Church's policy regarding abortion politics and Holy Communion.

1) Does active support for legalized abortion make a politician unworthy for the reception of the Blessed Sacrament?
2) Should the Church deny Holy Communion to such a politician because of his public stance against her teachings?
3) Who should make the decision to deny Holy Communion to such a person if they are not publicly excommunicated?
4) Is it a Mortal Sin for the individual voter to cast their ballot for a pro-abortion politician?
5) Should those who vote for pro-abortion politicians because of their stance on abortion be denied Holy Communion?

I will try to address each of these questions in turn from a Catholic perspective. (Though not in the same post)
*NOTE: This is part of an article that I had written in a student publication, on a Catholic campus, so its original intended audience was Catholic.*

1) Does active support for legalized abortion make a politician unworthy for the reception of the Blessed Sacrament? St. Paul establishes in his First Epistle to the Corinthians that there is such a thing as unworthiness when approaching the Blessed Sacrament and that those who are unworthy should not receive.

1 Corinthians 11:
26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church informs us that it is grave sin that makes us unworthy to receive the Blessed Sacrament.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1385:
Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.

The gravity of the sin of abortion and its support by legitimate authority are expressed by Pope John Paul II using very firm language in his encyclical letter, Evangelium Vitae.

Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, 57:
Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. 51
The deliberate decision to deprive an innocent human being of his life is always morally evil and can never be licit either as an end in itself or as a means to a good end. It is in fact a grave act of disobedience to the moral law, and indeed to God himself, the author and guarantor of that law; it contradicts the fundamental virtues of justice and charity. "Nothing and no one can in any way permit the killing of an innocent human being, whether a fetus or an embryo, an infant or an adult, an old person, or one suffering from an incurable disease, or a person who is dying. Furthermore, no one is permitted to ask for this act of killing, either for himself or herself or for another person entrusted to his or her care, nor can he or she consent to it, either explicitly or implicitly. Nor can any authority legitimately recommend or permit such an action".52

Does active support for legalized abortion make a politician unworthy for the reception of the Blessed Sacrament? Yes it does, and considering that Holy Communion is Christ’s actual Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, it is fitting that this be reserved for those that participate in His Divine Life through Sanctifying Grace. Furthermore, considering that abortion is the killing of innocent human life, and therefore murder, it is not hard to see how the promotion of it would constitute a mortal sin that deprives a person of Sanctifying Grace. It must also be noted that when a politician promotes abortion, they are publicly opposing the Church’s moral teaching.
 
Does active support for legalized abortion make a politician unworthy for the reception of the Blessed Sacrament? Yes it does, and considering that Holy Communion is Christ’s actual Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, it is fitting that this be reserved for those that participate in His Divine Life through Sanctifying Grace. Furthermore, considering that abortion is the killing of innocent human life, and therefore murder, it is not hard to see how the promotion of it would constitute a mortal sin that deprives a person of Sanctifying Grace. It must also be noted that when a politician promotes abortion, they are publicly opposing the Church’s moral teaching.
Kerry personally believes that abortion is wrong, but respects pro-abortionist beliefs. he is separating his faith from his (possibly soon to be)job as the president of a goverment that has no religion. he is not suppost to support the church's moral standings. he is suppost to support all religions and beliefs.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
bandgeek500 said:
he is separating his faith from his (possibly soon to be)job as the president of a goverment that has no religion. he is not suppost to support the church's moral standings. he is suppost to support all religions and beliefs.

Thats what the constitution tells him is right.

The Catholic Canon says it is a sin.

He`s still wrong as far as Catholicism goes, in fact he`s sinning and if you vote for him you are promoting sin thus, sinning yourself.

So they are telling their followers not to vote for Kerry with the loophole of disspelling it through confession.
There`s always a loophole.

:)
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
What law do you transgress when you vote for Mr Kerry? That is the thread question is it not? It is Christianity that is saying one sins by voting for Mr Kerry!
"This just one of the things Chrisrianity refuses to see." There is no law, except the one they made just for this purpose, to make folks vote their way.
They have NO FAITH! They really don't believe God. Elohim chooses our government. For his purpose. ;)
 
What law do you transgress when you vote for Mr Kerry? That is the thread question is it not? It is Christianity that is saying one sins by voting for Mr Kerry!
"This just one of the things Chrisrianity refuses to see." There is no law, except the one they made just for this purpose, to make folks vote their way.
They have NO FAITH! They really don't believe God. Elohim chooses our government. For his purpose. ;)
i find this statement quite insulting for two good reasons.
1)its the the catholic church, not Christianity as a whole
2)i am a christian and i do have faith
 

Pah

Uber all member
Katholish said:
Well, this topic seemed in sore need of a Catholic to explain some things.

Please explain to me why secular law should not be followed and the Church lose its tax exempt status.

I'm really not interested in any other explanation.

-pah-
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
bandgeek500 said:
i find this statement quite insulting for two good reasons.
1)its the the catholic church, not Christianity as a whole
2)i am a christian and i do have faith

Both Tanach and NT say it is Hashem that chooses who will be your President.

Pr.8:15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;
16 by me princes rule, and nobles govern the earth.
Ro.13:1 ¶ Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

And you thought you elected them! (It's in Gods plan, whoever sits in the Whitehouse.)

Sorry, Bandgeek500, don't take it personally. Christianity(not only Catholic) can't seem to grasp that, {Sin} is, Transgression of the Law.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Ro.13:1 ¶ Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
I'm not sure I want to return to the days when the divine right of kings was a popular doctrine.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Ronald said:
Both Tanach and NT say it is Hashem that chooses who will be your President.

Pr.8:15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;
16 by me princes rule, and nobles govern the earth.
Ro.13:1 ¶ Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

And you thought you elected them! (It's in Gods plan, whoever sits in the Whitehouse.)
So Gods a monarchist too.

Is there anything about this guy thats likable?
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
I have all the respect in the world for a religion to take a position on any and every moral question. In America, if that church tells its congregation whom to vote for (or how to vote), it has clearly crossed a line and should have it's tax exempt status revoked. It has just become a for-profit business.

For those members that believe they have an obligation to vote a certain way (based on divine revelation), I say more power to you. I only hope that you don't base it on what another human being is telling you, but rather that you have the ability to discern for yourself what is right.

TVOR
 
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