New gender?

Penumbra · May 4, 2014

saint_frankenstein said:
Beards really aren't all that important. There's males who can't ever grow beards.

Yeah.

Although it's not universal because they're a collection of many types of people rather than a common people, many native American men cannot grow a beard. Genetically, they tend to not get male pattern baldness, not have much body hair, and not grow levels of facial hair seen on men from other parts of the world.

So there are women that can grow a degree of facial hair up to and including a full beard, and men that can't grow almost any facial hair at all.

Saint Frankenstein · May 4, 2014

kashmir said:
Drugs put into the body gets passed down to their off spring.
Clearly there is no solid evidence either way, and we can not directly observe evolution happen, so the question is still unanswerable on long term affects.

Cross-sex hormones cause the person to become sterile. For example, I'm a transsexual man and I'm on testosterone therapy. In a few months or so, it will make me sterile by causing ovulation to cease. If I wanted to get pregnant, I would have to go off of testosterone and allow my reproductive system to start up again. It is very dangerous to the health of the child to be on testosterone and be pregnant at the same time. So the hormone therapy would not effect the child since you would be off of in the first place in order to be pregnant and doctors wouldn't allow you to be on HRT while pregnant in the first place.

As for trans women, estrogen makes them sterile, too, since it causes the testicles to stop functioning so there's no sperm. They would have to go off estrogen in order to impregnate someone.

So I don't see how cross-sex hormone therapy could really effect possible offspring since the same-sex hormones will have returned to their original amount.

Drolefille · May 4, 2014

kashmir said:
Drugs put into the body gets passed down to their off spring.
Clearly there is no solid evidence either way, and we can not directly observe evolution happen, so the question is still unanswerable on long term affects.
I cant post links yet, taken from NYU Langone Med Center
"content?ChunkIID=90869"

You seem to have misunderstood my opinion.
I am wondering about it not condemning it.

No, I'm simply stating that intersexed people have existed throughout the history of mankind, it's not something that occurs due to the hormones taken by trans* people. Additionally I don't know the statistics on how many trans men or women have biological offspring post hormonal treatment, but the hormones typically cause sterility even prior to any sort of surgery.

I'm not thinking you condemned it, just questioning the method.

saint_frankenstein said:
Beards really aren't all that important. There's males who can't ever grow beards.

My BF is one. He blames his grandmother.

saint_frankenstein said:
From Chicago? Well, I'll need to practice.

Yeah me too... I'll work on it til the cops arrive.

Alex_G · May 4, 2014

Gender is a complex spectrum, and is in no way synonymous with the sex of a person. Ones gender is ultimately at the discretion of that individual, and their right to personhood and who they define themselves to be. Its not for others to project their prejudices or ignorances onto that person, and force them to fit their view.

If only people would get over being scared of what it is they dont know or understand, lashing out with ridicule, spite, judgment and discrimination just defend their own insecurity.

Oh how our world would be a better place as a result.

kashmir · May 4, 2014

saint_frankenstein said:
Cross-sex hormones cause the person to become sterile. For example, I'm a transsexual man and I'm on testosterone therapy. In a few months or so, it will make me sterile by causing ovulation to cease. If I wanted to get pregnant, I would have to go off of testosterone and allow my reproductive system to start up again. It is very dangerous to the health of the child to be on testosterone and be pregnant at the same time. So the hormone therapy would not effect the child since you would be off of in the first place in order to be pregnant and doctors wouldn't allow you to be on HRT while pregnant in the first place.

As for trans women, estrogen makes them sterile, too, since it causes the testicles to stop functioning so there's no sperm. They would have to go off estrogen in order to impregnate someone.

So I don't see how cross-sex hormone therapy could really effect possible offspring since the same-sex hormones will have returned to their original amount.

Didn't know that stuff, thanks for the information.
Never the less, you said this
"doctors wouldn't allow you to be on HRT while pregnant in the first place"
So they know there is issues, not letting it happen, doesn't prevent it from possibly happening.
I am talking hundreds of thousands of years from now on the affects of what we do now.
The affects could be good or bad, that is not my concerns.
They say that eventually we will all be one race of sorts, all brown looking people.
Do I care?
Not in the slightest bit.
Please do not take offense to original post, it seems I am being misunderstood.

Saint Frankenstein · May 4, 2014

kashmir said:
Didn't know that stuff, thanks for the information.
Never the less, you said this
"doctors wouldn't allow you to be on HRT while pregnant in the first place"
So they know there is issues, not letting it happen, doesn't prevent it from possibly happening.
I am talking hundreds of thousands of years from now on the affects of what we do now.
The affects could be good or bad, that is not my concerns.
They say that eventually we will all be one race of sorts, all brown looking people.
Do I care?
Not in the slightest bit.
Please do not take offense to original post, it seems I am being misunderstood.

Transsexuals are a very small minority, even smaller would be the number of transsexuals who have biological kids at all. Even rarer than that would be transsexuals who accidentally get someone pregnant or get pregnant while on HRT. It would be statistically irrelevant. There's no way it would have an effect on human evolution.

Drolefille · May 4, 2014

saint_frankenstein said:
Transsexuals are a very small minority, even smaller would be the number of transsexuals who have biological kids at all. Even rarer than that would be transsexuals who accidentally get someone pregnant or get pregnant while on HRT. It would be statistically irrelevant. There's no way it would have an effect on human evolution.

Add in, who knows if testosterone actually WOULD have a negative effect on a fetus, typically we just prohibit pregnant people from taking many medications in pregnancy because testing drugs on that population is incredibly difficult and risky and expensive. And if you can't test it, you can't recommend it.

Saint Frankenstein · May 4, 2014

Drolefille said:
Add in, who knows if testosterone actually WOULD have a negative effect on a fetus, typically we just prohibit pregnant people from taking many medications in pregnancy because testing drugs on that population is incredibly difficult and risky and expensive. And if you can't test it, you can't recommend it.

I thought it was proven that testosterone therapy while pregnant would be bad for the fetus.

Drolefille · May 4, 2014

saint_frankenstein said:
I thought it was proven that testosterone therapy while pregnant would be bad for the fetus.

Well now I have to go look it up, be back.

Edit: Back.
http://www.drugs.com/pregnancy/testosterone.html

Testosterone has been assigned to pregnancy category X by the FDA. Androgen use, particularly during the first trimester of pregnancy, causes virilization of the external genitalia of the female fetus. Reversible oligospermia may occur after prolonged androgen administration or excessive dosage. There are no controlled data in human pregnancy. Testosterone use is considered contraindicated during pregnancy.

It can cause some physical changes in genitalia of female fetuses, although there are no actual studies done in people. The oligospermia is just talking about low sperm count in men.

So.. could be bad, probably. But we can't test it for sure.

Saint Frankenstein · May 4, 2014

Drolefille said:
Well now I have to go look it up, be back.

Same. Lol.

Vinayaka · May 4, 2014

Penumbra said:
many native American men cannot grow a beard. Genetically, they tend to not get male pattern baldness, not have much body hair, and not grow levels of facial hair seen on men from other parts of the world.

Off topic, but when I was a kid we had a hired hand from the indigenous first people's community. He was a really nice guy, and spent evenings watching TV or playing with us kids. He used to let us pull his whiskers, one at a time. He seemed to take great joy in our reaction.

Saint Frankenstein · May 4, 2014

Drolefille said:
Well now I have to go look it up, be back.

Edit: Back.
Testosterone Use During Pregnancy | Drugs.com

It can cause some physical changes in genitalia of female fetuses, although there are no actual studies done in people. The oligospermia is just talking about low sperm count in men.

So.. could be bad, probably. But we can't test it for sure.

Yeah, that's what I've read, too. Best to just not do it. Besides, it would be extremely difficult, if not near impossible, for a trans man who has been on T for a long time to get pregnant in the first place. However, that doesn't mean it 100% can't happen, so safe sex is a must, as it is in general anyway.

Gehennaite · May 4, 2014

Drolefille said:
Unless you're a she.

You don't know many people from the Mediterranean do you?
In fact, my point is that gender normativity doesn't matter.

Masculine =/= male.

That any lack of understanding is due to gender.

Ah yes, genitals, those are clearly the important thing.
And it's not really obvious at all. It's only a problem if you see not being considered a "man" as an insult, I suppose.

No, you stated that a beard and a penis make a he despite the appropriate pronound being a "she"

That Penumbra's lack of understanding has anything to do with her being a woman.

You in fact have stated that the drag queen in question is wrong about pronoun usage. So at the same time as you insist on saying "HE" instead of "SHE" you're insulting a physically male's understanding of his anatomy and gender when he presents a female persona who, by the way, is a she.

No.

Penumbra said:
Sounds like the penis plays are bit more crucial of a role there than the beard, though, since you said you'd call a biological female with a beard, "she". It sounds like something other than the beard, is your deciding factor. And then you said you respect the transgender community and that if they don't have a beard, you'll call them "she". So it sounds like even the penis might not be the deciding factor.

So I don't think you invalidated anything. I just continue to see inconsistency.

Like, if a man dresses up as a woman, you'll call that character a she. But if that man dresses up as a bearded woman (a type of woman that does exist), then you refuse to call that character a she, even though you'd call an actual bearded woman, a she. It's not too important in this case because the person is a crossdressing man rather than a transgender woman, so pronouns probably wouldn't offend the person. But logically, it's a contradiction.

This seems to be why he does this- to mess with people, to sort of bring out the logical inconsistencies people have, to create goofy conversations like this one. Gender and sex are areas where a lot of people seem to assign arbitrary "rules" to things but then as soon as those rules start being compared, it turns out that they don't actually make much sense. The problem with making up rules in the first place is that they become messy if they aren't 100% applicable. So as a general "rule", women don't have beards, except when they do.

An interesting fact, according to articles I've read, is that for transgender people that access hormones and all that, it has historically been a problem if a trans woman was attracted to females, or if she was noticeably "butch" in personality, or basically in any way not stereotypically feminine enough. Even though women can be lesbian, and women can be tomboys, a person who was assigned male at birth that had a gender identity as a woman and was trying to access hormones to feminize her body, would be held to a stricter standard of what constitutes feminine, as part of the decision to let her access hormones or not. As a result, many would lie about their sexual orientation or act in certain ways, to convince their hetero-normative doctor or therapist to let them access hormones. Holding people to different standard is a form of inconsistency.

How can it be synonymous with masculine identity if some women with feminine identities, have beards? This part here is as plain as one of those formal logic questions on a logic test.

If you were being precise about word choice, it would be something like, "capability of growing a beard is rather strongly correlated with masculine identity".

I didn't say it's gender normative. I said that the inconsistency is odd. That you'd call a woman with a beard a she, and you'd call a transgender woman or a crossdressing man a she, but not a transgender woman or a crossdressing man with a beard a she? Those people can be women, but they can't be bearded women, even though bearded women do exist?

As far as disorders go, what constitutes a disorder is somewhat subjective and somewhat objective. Certain hair growth on women is usually associated with abnormal hormone levels, although there are other reasons. Sometimes it's a harmful reason, while other times, it's harmless other than potentially causing psychological distress. (Like, I'd certainly have distress if I began growing a beard, as many women would.)

But if for example a woman has a beard and is healthy and she is cool with having that beard, is that necessarily a disorder? We can objectively say it's rare, but we can only subjectively label it as a disorder, in that case. I knew a girl in high school that had quite a bit of facial hair. There are ways to temporarily and permanently remove hair, but instead she just sort of rocked it as it was. So without knowing medical details, I certainly wouldn't call her form of expression a disorder.

Yes, but it's not synonymous.

Why do people feel the need to respond in essays? Can't you get your point across in 100 words or less?

I refuse to call bearded transvestite males "women". If it makes you feel superior to condescend this perspective, then continue to pleasure yourself ad absurdum.

I find it loathsome that you refuse to identify facial hair as a masculine trait, despite the overwhelming evidence that billions of men have it - and next to no women do. By your logic we should write off breasts as a feminine trait, because in abnormal cases men can develop them too.

Debater Slayer · May 4, 2014

Gehennaite said:
Why do people feel the need to respond in essays? Can't you get your point across in 100 words or less?

I refuse to call bearded transvestite males "women". If it makes you feel superior to condescend this perspective, then continue to pleasure yourself ad absurdum.

I find it loathsome that you refuse to identify facial hair as a masculine trait, despite the overwhelming evidence that billions of men have it - and next to no women do. By your logic we should write off breasts as a feminine trait, because in abnormal cases men can develop them too.

By your logic, do I become less masculine when I shave my beard? And are men who naturally have no facial hair less "masculine" than those who do?

Saint Frankenstein · May 4, 2014

Gehennaite said:
I refuse to call bearded transvestite males "women". If it makes you feel superior to condescend this perspective, then continue to pleasure yourself ad absurdum.

Once again, drag queens aren't transvestites. :facepalm:

This is a man who created a drag persona who is a bearded lady. Conchita is a woman. Tom, the man who portrays her, is not. It's really simple.

Female pronouns:

Male pronouns:

Gehennaite · May 4, 2014

saint_frankenstein said:
Female pronouns:

If you feel that is an accurate portrayal of feminine aestheticism, and you feel comfortable referring to that individual as a "she", then kudos. I can't. I can't see past the masculine quality of that beard.

Debater Slayer said:
By your logic, do I become less masculine when I shave my beard? And are men who naturally have no facial hair less "masculine" than those who do?

A whole host of civilizations existing prior to the 20th century would say "yes". The beard has always been associated with the masculine persona.

Beard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alceste · May 4, 2014

saint_frankenstein said:
Beards really aren't all that important. There's males who can't ever grow beards.

Then they must be women, really. Somebody better phone Japan and let them know it's a country of lesbians.

Penumbra · May 4, 2014

Gehennaite said:
Why do people feel the need to respond in essays? Can't you get your point across in 100 words or less?

More detailed points require more words, and it's fun to point out inconsistencies. As long as one types fast, length isn't a huge issue.

Now I can kind of see why it might be fun for him to dress up as a bearded woman. To challenge ideas. To see circular logic collapse in on itself.

I refuse to call bearded transvestite males "women".

Okay.

Doesn't mean it's consistent, though. You'll call non-bearded drag queen males "she", bearded females "she", but not bearded drag queen males.

So if a man dresses up as one of the more common forms of women, his character gets to be labeled a woman. But if he dresses up as one of the less common forms of women, his character doesn't get to be labeled a woman, even if woman like that do exist.

Alright...

If it makes you feel superior to condescend this perspective, then continue to pleasure yourself ad absurdum.

Why resort to emotional arguments? Why not just stick to the discussion itself?

You're taking this seriously?

I find it loathsome that you refuse to identify facial hair as a masculine trait, despite the overwhelming evidence that billions of men have it - and next to no women do. By your logic we should write off breasts as a feminine trait, because in abnormal cases men can develop them too.

Why do you find it loathsome? It's interesting that you're investing emotion into what I do or do not identify as masculine or feminine traits. That's another topic entirely, though.

Breasts are certainly a female-typical trait, and beards are certainly a male-typical trait in some ethnicities (but not others that can't grow them). By no means are each of those things synonymous with one sex, though. If something were synonymous with something else, it means we could always identify one by the presence of the other.

And I didn't say I don't generally view beards as a masculine trait. I do; they project an image of masculinity in my mind. But it would be going another step to say that the beard makes the man in the sense that they're synonymous. And then it would be falling off the path to start building rules about gender expression that when compared to one another don't sum up right. Like, "man dressed as woman = "she" pronouns, bearded woman = "she" pronouns, man dressed as bearded woman = "he" pronouns". It's like 1 + 1 + 1 = ...4?

That's usually how gender works in the world. We as societies build up various rules for which we categorize people but then when those rules are broken, or when rules are compared to each other and found to be logically inconsistent literally in terms of formal logic, then it's like people's brains explode.

Sometimes the result is mostly harmless internet bickering. Other times it's actually harmful hatred and discrimination. This guy says he performs as a bearded woman for the sake of spreading tolerance.

Penumbra · May 4, 2014

Gehennaite said:
A whole host of civilizations existing prior to the 20th century would say "yes". The beard has always been associated with the masculine persona.

Beard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well sure, but a whole host of civilizations existing prior to the 20th century said slavery was okay too.

Fortunately that's not really how truth gets sorted out.

Debater Slayer · May 4, 2014

Gehennaite said:
A whole host of civilizations existing prior to the 20th century would say "yes". The beard has always been associated with the masculine persona.

Beard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now you're just appealing to tradition. A whole host of civilizations existing prior to the 20th century didn't allow women to vote and treated them as second-class citizens. I guess we should also give weight to their traditions and implement them in our present-day lives because they adopted them, right?

And I didn't ask how people in some medieval civilization would answer the question; I asked whether you think I would be less masculine if I shaved my beard. So, again, I want your own answer to this question: do men who shave their beards become less "masculine" because of it? If you say yes, do you realize just how ridiculous and unfounded that statement is, given that their hormones, gender identity, physical characteristics, and anatomy all remain the same?

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