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The Disbelievers

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The fake evidence is using the TOE as to reject God's existence.

If that is even happening at all, it is a difference of opinion at worst. It can't even conceivably be "fake evidence".

(...)
i am talking about the quran.

I know. And it is a good example of what I am talking about, as it turns out.


There are some clear signs that the disbelievers will fight against even though it is clear signs.

I take it that you feel they should not?

Why should we not?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
FearGod, I notice that you avoided responding to my post. Is there any particular reason for that?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I'm not a liar, I'm not a deceiver, and I don't try to mislead anyone because of my worldview; in fact, I even wish the people who demonize me for my views well and do my best not to feel any animosity toward them.

My worldview is different from yours, just as yours is different from many others', and I don't think that difference in and of itself should be a reason to demonize other people. If more people understood that, I think the world would be much better off than it is now.

The verses is speaking about specific disbelievers which i may describe them as enemies of faith.,they don't only disbelieve but even motivate others to disbelieve.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Do you work against God,such as pushing people to reject him and try to bring false evidences to support your view?
Yes, to an extent. Although, obviously, I wouldn't say the evidence I presented was "false".

Do you think that your life will end with death or you are in doubt that there maybe a life after this life ?
I am currently inclined to believe that there is no afterlife.

Do you think religion is a fact or just a myth of the past ?
A little more complicated than "just a myth of the past", but that wouldn't be an entirely inaccurate summation of my feelings towards religion, I guess.

Do you try to fight against god's sign in the quran or you just try to understand them ?
I can't say I've really read enough of the Qur'an to say I fight against it.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I wonder how verses 6:24-29 describing the disbelievers

Verse 6:24 says they invent the lies and believe it to be the truth.
Verse 6:25 says that they won't believe any sign showed to them and they regard religion as the myth of the ancient people.
Verse 6:26 says that they mislead themselves and the others.
Verse 6:27 says that they'll regret and wish if they were among the believers.
Verses 6:28 says that even if given more chance then they'll be back to their usual deeds
Verse 6:29 says that they used to deny the afterlife

See how they will lie about themselves. And lost from them will be what they used to invent. (6:24)


And among them are those who listen to you, but We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. Even when they come to you arguing with you, those who disbelieve say, "This is not but legends of the former peoples." (6:25)

And they prevent [others] from him and are [themselves] remote from him. And they do not destroy except themselves, but they perceive [it] not. (6:26)

If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers." (6:27)

But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars. (6:28)

And they say, "There is none but our worldly life, and we will not be resurrected." (6:29)

Sounds like what Ford would say about Toyota products. Always a good idea to knock the competition. Especially when you don't provide any substantial evidence to support your demonizations and vilifications.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The verses is speaking about specific disbelievers which i may describe them as enemies of faith.,they don't only disbelieve but even motivate others to disbelieve.

And that, it would seem, is a bad thing.

Why?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I'm not sure what you mean by "work against God." I think a lot of the ideas and teachings in certain religions are harmful, but I don't believe that those ideas came from a god.

If talking about Islam,what are those harmful teachings & ideas ?

I often try to make sure that my positions and opinions are supported by sound evidence, so no, I don't "bring false evidences" to mislead others into accepting my views or adopting them.

But do you have a sound evidence ?

I think there will most likely be nothing after death because I don't see sufficient evidence that there's another life.

And maybe there is.


It depends on the religion we're talking about as well as its core teachings.

I think some claims in more than one belief system are almost certainly myths, but I find value in some others.

I am talking specifically about Islam and not other religions.

What do you mean by "fighting against" them?

Also, understanding any given concept or idea doesn't mean one has to accept it or find it convincing. I understand a lot of ideas that I believe to be completely incorrect and possibly even harmful.

There are some clear signs in the quran that can never be said by a Bedouin living in the 7th century.

So how to oppose a clear sign,for example one verse says the universe was one piece and that God keep expanding it.

How to deny it ?but yes the disbelievers do and even work against it.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The verses is speaking about specific disbelievers which i may describe them as enemies of faith.,they don't only disbelieve but even motivate others to disbelieve.
Sure, because they think it's wrong, and in some cases harmful.

Suppose there is a belief that is hypothetically untrue. In that case, it would be a good thing, for the most part, to not believe in that untrue thing, and then to rationally convince others as to why this belief is untrue. And that's doubly the case if it's untrue and harmful.

That's how I view Islam and the Qur'an, for the most part. I believe that it's not only an untrue belief, but a harmful one. And this thread itself is an example of why I think it's harmful- the core material itself is divisive, propagates tribalism, breeds hatred or lack of compassion, and promotes a very malevolent worldview in my opinion. There are many religions in the world; you're a believer of one and a disbeliever of many. I'm a believer of none and a disbeliever of many.

I think a lot of enemies are created by people that define them as enemies, either because of themselves, their culture, or in some cases their ancient books. I'm not your enemy, at least from my point of view. For example, lots of Muslims support those Qur'anic verses about unbelievers being tortured and worship the author of those words, but I would never support such a horrible fate for Muslims. And the Qur'an may say (falsely) that nonbelievers all share certain negative characteristics, but I certainly don't believe that all Muslims share certain negative characteristics.

The feeling isn't mutual, in other words.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
And that, it would seem, is a bad thing.

Why?

Misleading is a bad thing,for example, i have 2 roads,there is a label in one road says dangerous and in the other one a label says safe road, now i asked a man what this label is about,he said to me this is nonsense,this road is much better from the other one,go and trust me this label was here long time ago and it is useless,then while i am driving in the dangerous road a man asked me to stop and he warned me not to keep going on this road as i'll be killed and no one ever survived,so in order to convince me he said to me that i'll see some signs which will prove to me that he was right,so if i disregard his advice and the signs and just listened to the first man who misled me,then my end will be death.
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
I wonder how verses 6:24-29 describing the disbelievers

Verse 6:24 says ........ (6:29)

I really couldn't work out what you're trying to say. Are you using all those citations to just convey your feelings about people who dont subscribe to Islam with the same fervour as yourself?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I really couldn't work out what you're trying to say. Are you using all those citations to just convey your feelings about people who dont subscribe to Islam with the same fervour as yourself?

No it is how the quran describes those disbelievers.

It has nothing to do with my feelings or the disbeliever feelings but about the quran description of the disbelievers.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No it is how the quran describes those disbelievers.

It has nothing to do with my feelings or the disbeliever feelings but about the quran description of the disbelievers.
Well unless you disagree with the Qur'an then of course it has something to do with your feelings.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Misleading is a bad thing,for example, i have 2 roads,there is a label in one road says dangerous and in the other one a label says safe road, now i asked a man what this label is about,he said to me this is nonsense,this road is much better from the other one,go and trust me this label was here long time ago and it is useless,then while i am driving in the dangerous road a man asked me to stop and he warned me not to keep going on this road as i'll be killed and no one ever survived,so in order to convince me he said to me that i'll see some signs which will prove to me that he was right,so if i disregard his advice and the signs and just listened to the first man who misled me,then my end will be death.

I have seen Muslims come here to this board and argue that the signs really do exist and are even miraculous. I've also seen Christians do that with the Bible, Jews do it with the Torah, Baha'is do it with the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Mormons do it with the Book of Mormon.

But the 'signs' don't seem real to me. They seem like illusions which the believer creates within his own head.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Well unless you disagree with the Qur'an then of course it has something to do with your feelings.

What the relation between my feelings and the verses of the quran.

For example the quran forbids me from drinking alcohol,so what that to do with my feelings.or i don't get your point about the verses and my feelings.

For example my feelings may let me looking to a sexy girl but the quran forbids me of staring at women,so i can't see your point.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
No it is how the quran describes those disbelievers.

Yes, and it's one reason that some of us do not accept the Quran as the Word of God.

God wouldn't say something like that -- no God that we could admire, I mean.

So we think they are just the words of a man who was trying to make everyone accept his own personal view of things.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Misleading is a bad thing,for example, i have 2 roads,there is a label in one road says dangerous and in the other one a label says safe road, now i asked a man what this label is about,he said to me this is nonsense,this road is much better from the other one,go and trust me this label was here long time ago and it is useless,then while i am driving in the dangerous road a man asked me to stop and he warned me not to keep going on this road as i'll be killed and no one ever survived,so in order to convince me he said to me that i'll see some signs which will prove to me that he was right,so if i disregard his advice and the signs and just listened to the first man who misled me,then my end will be death.

And how do you know that it is the disbelievers of the Quran who are misleading? We tend to disagree.
 

Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
I wonder how verses 6:24-29 describing the disbelievers

Verse 6:24 says they invent the lies and believe it to be the truth.
Verse 6:25 says that they won't believe any sign showed to them and they regard religion as the myth of the ancient people.
Verse 6:26 says that they mislead themselves and the others.
Verse 6:27 says that they'll regret and wish if they were among the believers.
Verses 6:28 says that even if given more chance then they'll be back to their usual deeds
Verse 6:29 says that they used to deny the afterlife

See how they will lie about themselves. And lost from them will be what they used to invent. (6:24)


And among them are those who listen to you, but We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. Even when they come to you arguing with you, those who disbelieve say, "This is not but legends of the former peoples." (6:25)

And they prevent [others] from him and are [themselves] remote from him. And they do not destroy except themselves, but they perceive [it] not. (6:26)

If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers." (6:27)

But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars. (6:28)

And they say, "There is none but our worldly life, and we will not be resurrected." (6:29)

Funny thing is... Religious people do the exact same thing. The difference is, they have a larger burden of proof for their claims.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Misleading is a bad thing,for example, i have 2 roads,there is a label in one road says dangerous and in the other one a label says safe road, now i asked a man what this label is about,he said to me this is nonsense,this road is much better from the other one,go and trust me this label was here long time ago and it is useless,then while i am driving in the dangerous road a man asked me to stop and he warned me not to keep going on this road as i'll be killed and no one ever survived,so in order to convince me he said to me that i'll see some signs which will prove to me that he was right,so if i disregard his advice and the signs and just listened to the first man who misled me,then my end will be death.

We don't have that. We have two roads that could be either dangerous or safe, and two people saying one is dangerous, though not the same one. It's up to us to decide who is the more credible witness, or to ignore both and check it out for ourselves. I trust we all have the sense not to drive off a cliff just because somebody told us it wasn't really there.
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
No it is how the quran describes those disbelievers.

It has nothing to do with my feelings or the disbeliever feelings but about the quran description of the disbelievers.
So what do you make of the Quran's position? I would imagine that you have 2 options:

1. If you believe the Quran to be infallible and true, then you will hear the words ring truth. You will of course need to honestly ask yourself how you can be so sure of its authority.

2. You see the Quran as a piece of historic literature written by mortal men, albeit one that has many important things to say about life. You would then ask yourself why such a book would be so concerned with disbelievers, and see a possible agenda at work by those who wrote the words.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
If talking about Islam,what are those harmful teachings & ideas ?

Here are a few, for starters:

• The concept of Hell and eternal punishment. In my opinion, that concept fosters intolerance to people of different beliefs, lack of compassion for them, and support for literally infinite violence in another life or realm of existence.

The main thing I find to be interesting—albeit in a very negative way—about the concept of eternal punishment is that if we were talking about any authority in the world and attributed such threats of violence, torture, and infinite suffering to it, most people would meet them with rejection and condemnation. But when attributed to a deity, over a billion people seem to have absolutely no problem accepting and even glorifying them as a sign of "greatness," "power," etc., at times.

You even seem to have started this thread to ask people about their opinions on the Qur'anic descriptions of disbelievers while apparently being in agreement with those descriptions yourself, so I can only ask if you also agree with the other things mentioned in the Qur'an about the supposed fate of the disbelievers:

Qur'an 35:36 said:
And for those who disbelieve will be the fire of Hell. [Death] is not decreed for them so they may die, nor will its torment be lightened for them. Thus do we recompense every ungrateful one.

Qur'an 35:37 said:
And they will cry out therein, "Our Lord, remove us; we will do righteousness - other than what we were doing!" But did We not grant you life enough for whoever would remember therein to remember, and the warner had come to you? So taste [the punishment], for there is not for the wrongdoers any helper.

Qur'an 39:71 said:
And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say, "Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "Yes, but the word of punishment has come into effect upon the disbelievers.

Qur'an 39:72 said:
[To them] it will be said, "Enter the gates of Hell to abide eternally therein, and wretched is the residence of the arrogant."

And these are just a few verses; there are many others with far more graphic descriptions of the torture in Hell, including descriptions of beating people with maces, making them wear garments of fire, forcing them to drink boiling water, and burning their faces with fire, among other things.

• Islam teaches that homosexual behavior is a huge sin and aberration that is deserving of severe punishment, which is considered by most Islamic scholars to be death. Yet there's scientific and medical evidence showing that homosexuality is widely practiced in the animal kingdom, which also indicates that sexual orientation isn't really a choice. So, in my view, designating homosexuality as an aberration is no different from saying that a particular skin or eye color is an "aberration" that warrants severely punishing the people who have it.

• Several aspects of Islamic laws, such as flogging for premarital sex. If all involved parties are consenting adults, then why should we even care about what people do in their bedrooms, much less punish them for it? I understand that centuries ago, there weren't any birth control methods and so people had to be extra careful to avoid unwanted pregnancies, but we have more than one contraception method now. Viewing the laws that forbid premarital sex as absolute and suitable for all times seems to me to be an extremely rigid mentality, especially when there are many people who aren't married and still have perfectly healthy and happy relationships with each other.

And I think this issue and the homosexuality one are largely intertwined: they're both about dictating what consenting adults should or shouldn't do in the privacy of their bedrooms for no good reason. You asked me which teachings I found to be harmful; if there were ever a clear example of dogmatic teachings influencing people to systematically discriminate against a group of people and deny them their basic rights, it would be teachings like those two.

Imagine someone telling you that they have found two bacteria doing unspeakable acts on a grain of sand, and that what those two bacteria do on the grain of sand angers them and incites their wrath. That's exactly how I perceive religiously inspired threats and "warnings" to people because of things they do in their bedrooms.

You seem to have this view that disbelievers are such terrible people, FearGod, but many of them would never wish torture like that described in the above verses to be inflicted on you. Disbelievers are apparently supposed to be "evildoers," liars, deceivers, etc., yet the people who usually claim such things are the ones who wish endless violence and torture on others without a shred of hesitation.

When you have met a large number of disbelievers like the ones you describe—the ones who "fight religion," as you put it—who wish you and other believers eternal suffering in some sort of extremely violent, grim, and harsh abode, let me know, FearGod. Until then, it seems to me that you're making unfounded assumptions and generalizations about a broad group of people based on your reading and interpretation of religious texts rather than actual interactions with other people.

On the other hand, I have drawn my conclusions about certain religions and their core teachings from actually reading those religions' scriptures and main texts as well as interacting with many of their followers—many of whom apparently have no problem generalizing about others and accepting verses saying that they will be tortured for eternity.

But do you have a sound evidence ?
Sound evidence for what? Your statement would have to be more specific for me to be able to answer this question properly.

And maybe there is.
Maybe. As things stand, though, I believe the probability of that is very small—practically negligible due to lack of evidence.


I am talking specifically about Islam and not other religions.
Then see above.

There are some clear signs in the quran that can never be said by a Bedouin living in the 7th century.

So how to oppose a clear sign,for example one verse says the universe was one piece and that God keep expanding it.

How to deny it ?but yes the disbelievers do and even work against it.
"Clear sign" can be rather subjective; perhaps what you find convincing isn't really so to other people. Have you considered that maybe you're the one who needs to investigate other people's claims in case you're wrong about what you state with so much confidence?
 
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