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Jesus Vs. Yahweh

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Not arbitrary.
The purpose of the Laws is something that is beneficial for the person and furthers G-d's plans for the world at the same time. Cooking something because you haven't even since breakfast, although temporarily beneficial, is ultimately harmful to the person and the world.

Gathering sticks to cook breakfast harms no one and has no cosmic significance. What good does it achieve to stone a man on sabbath for breaking the sabbath?
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Okay so, this is just my interpretation but.. Jesus and Yahweh are the same.

Yahweh did His own thing, And Jesus lead by example.
In other words, God did God stuff, Jesus did stuff to teach us.

For example - God can kill a bunch of guys, But Jesus in effect, Said that isn't for us to decide.

Jesus said in effect that it is evil to give your child a snake when that child is hungry for some fish, which is exactly what Yahweh did. They are not the same, I don't think Jesus worshiped Yahweh or considered Yahweh as his Father.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Gathering sticks to cook breakfast harms no one and has no cosmic significance. What good does it achieve to stone a man on sabbath for breaking the sabbath?

Just because you don't know what the cosmic significance is, doesn't mean there isn't any. These are not random laws, they have a purpose.
He wasn't stoned on the Sabbath, he was stoned the next day.
 

arcanum

Active Member
Yanno...I kind of love how some christians are very quick to take jewish scripture out of context, twist it around, however, when confronted with stuff in their own scripture, they go WAIT WAIT WAIT, it's a parable and all of a sudden they work hard to rationalize it away.

However, they are expert on jewish scritupures.:rolleyes:
Well you did take Luke 19 out of context as if he was was talking about himself, he was not, it was a parable and he was not talking about himself. Just sayin:shrug:
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Well you did take Luke 19 out of context as if he was was talking about himself, he was not, it was a parable and he was not talking about himself. Just sayin:shrug:
That's very convenient.

What's your proof that he was talking about someone else?

This is in english yanno?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Just because you don't know what the cosmic significance is, doesn't mean there isn't any. These are not random laws, they have a purpose.
He wasn't stoned on the Sabbath, he was stoned the next day.

It has even more significance, being written and preserved, for us to speak about to this day.


Should we stone everyone working on the Sabbath? The people, and Moses, seemed pretty adamant that these offenses are inexcusable.

Will the Messiah command that people be stoned?
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Nope. Jesus is telling a parable in Luke 19, you might be unfamiliar with the concept but a parable is a didactic narrative using figurative language. The point of the particular parable is like the parable of the shrewd manager, it to show us how corrupt and twisted the world is, the ruler in that parable isn't a figure of Jesus but of a figure of Yahweh.


Here is Yahweh:

"And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

and here is Jesus:

"And Jesus said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
and not man for the sabbath" - Mark 2:27

"And He said unto them, “Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? To save life, or to kill?” But they held their peace." - Mark 3:4

In Yahweh's world if you break one arbitrary rule regarding days special to him, you are subject to death no matter what. No matter if you are gathering sticks to start a fire to keep warm or cook some food because you are hungry. No mercy and no quarter given. Jesus is very different, he believes that the sabbath is for the benefit of man and implies that it is an awful and horrible thing to stone a man on sabbath.
You take it out of context.

The jewish people just got out Egypt by miraculous wonders.

They were just given the Ten Commandments. All the jews heard G-D's voice, however, this man did it publically and defiantly.

Let's not forget what jesus said. Here is the sentence before it as well.

According to jesus either he will be your king or you be murdered. Not only that but christians carried this out mass mudering peole whom don't convert to their religion.

…26"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 27"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.
Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto de fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto de fe reached as high as the attendance at bullfights.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto de fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492..



By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto de fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.


The Inquisition was not limited to Europe; it also spread to Spanish and Portugese colonies in the New World and Asia. Many Jews and Conversos fled from Portugal and Spainto the New World seeking greater security and economic opportunities. Branches of the Portugese Inquisition were set up in Goa and Brazil. Spanish tribunals and auto de fes were set up in Mexico, the Philippine Islands, Guatemala, Peru, New Granada and the Canary Islands. By the late 18th century, most of these were dissolved
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Gathering sticks to cook breakfast harms no one and has no cosmic significance. What good does it achieve to stone a man on sabbath for breaking the sabbath?
1) The jews just got the ten commandments

2) He did it publically and definatly

3) He could have gathered the sticks before shabbos

What does it say about jesus who said everyone who doesn't accept him as his ruler should be slain before him?
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Nope. Jesus is telling a parable in Luke 19, you might be unfamiliar with the concept but a parable is a didactic narrative using figurative language. The point of the particular parable is like the parable of the shrewd manager, it to show us how corrupt and twisted the world is, the ruler in that parable isn't a figure of Jesus but of a figure of Yahweh.


Here is Yahweh:

"And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

and here is Jesus:

"And Jesus said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
and not man for the sabbath" - Mark 2:27

"And He said unto them, “Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? To save life, or to kill?” But they held their peace." - Mark 3:4

In Yahweh's world if you break one arbitrary rule regarding days special to him, you are subject to death no matter what. No matter if you are gathering sticks to start a fire to keep warm or cook some food because you are hungry. No mercy and no quarter given. Jesus is very different, he believes that the sabbath is for the benefit of man and implies that it is an awful and horrible thing to stone a man on sabbath.

What you are saying is inaccurate.

The death penalty was very hardly imposed. If it was imposed once in 70 years that court was considered a blood thirsty court.

Jesus was very autocratic. You either accept him as your ruler or you will be damned.

At least G-D gives the 7 rules for all of humanity to do and get a good share in the world to come.

Once again, you seem exceedingly liberal of taking jewish scripture out of context and misinterpreting them, however, you seem to excuse away the hateful things that jesus said. Oh no...jesus wouldn't say that it was parable. Oh no. jesus wouldn't say that he was talking about someone one

I would even make a deal with christians. You stick to interpreting your own scriptures however you want, and I will stick to interpreting my scriptures.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You take it out of context.

The jewish people just got out Egypt by miraculous wonders.

They were just given the Ten Commandments. All the jews heard G-D's voice, however, this man did it publically and defiantly.

You honestly think these people saw all these overwhelming displays of proof and decided to make a golden cow, because the man Moses didn't return? Didn't your fathers see these same undeniable proofs, and write about them, and teach you about them?

God gave more proof to these people thousands of years ago, than He has to you or I.. and you are more adamant than them! It's backwards. And these same people also taught you to accept prophesies of the future, no one living ever sees.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It has even more significance, being written and preserved, for us to speak about to this day.


Should we stone everyone working on the Sabbath? The people, and Moses, seemed pretty adamant that these offenses are inexcusable.

Will the Messiah command that people be stoned?

We can't stone anyone as none of the preconditions can be met.

The Messiah will not command anyone to be stoned, because none of the preconditions can be met.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I was serious, but you're just making that up!

Watching Jews and Christians argue over Yahweh v. Jesus feels precisely the same to me as watching teenagers argue over Mighty Mouse v. Batman. Like the atheists and even the anti-theists, I think that needs to be said, at least every once in awhile. Invisible super-beings? Really?

I'm sorry for writing something which will doubtlessly be seen as deeply offensive to lots of people, but it's not my fault. The Devil made me do it.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
We can't stone anyone as none of the preconditions can be met.

The Messiah will not command anyone to be stoned, because none of the preconditions can be met.

On those days that they found the man, and then stoned him-- what were the preconditions that were met?

They found and detained him. They brought him to Moses. Moses assured them that he MUST be stoned, the following day, outside the camp.


What is the point of having a Law that details the appropriate consequences, according to God's own mouth, if preconditions prevent them?
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
According to jesus either he will be your king or you be murdered. Not only that but christians carried this out mass mudering peole whom don't convert to their religion.

…26"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 27"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

You are not getting it, which is the purpose of a parable. Only people who are initiated into the larger story understand them. Jesus isn't saying going to slay them or that he is going to take anyone's minas away. The parable is about the injustices of the world.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Just because you don't know what the cosmic significance is, doesn't mean there isn't any. These are not random laws, they have a purpose.
He wasn't stoned on the Sabbath, he was stoned the next day.

What cosmic significance could a peasant gathering sticks to cook breakfast have?
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
1) The jews just got the ten commandments

2) He did it publically and definatly

3) He could have gathered the sticks before shabbos

What does it say about jesus who said everyone who doesn't accept him as his ruler should be slain before him?

But killing him for gathering sticks seem a bit like overkill. It's something the Taliban would do.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
On those days that they found the man, and then
stoned him-- what were the preconditions that were met?

They found and detained him. They brought him to Moses. Moses assured them that he MUST be stoned, the following day, outside the camp.

Well, there must be a Court capable of carrying out capital punishments. This would be impossible today. For the messiah, it would be possible. However, there are other issues that will prevent him from being able to sentence anyone for capital punishment:

The person in question needs to be warned in front of two witnesses, within a rather short time frame that if he performs the prohibited action, he will be punished with punishment X. And there needs to be two witnesses that saw him perform that prohibited action.

What is the point of having a Law that details the appropriate consequences, according to God's own mouth, if preconditions prevent them?

Mostly, as a deterrent.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Well, there must be a Court capable of carrying out capital punishments. This would be impossible today. For the messiah, it would be possible. However, there are other issues that will prevent him from being able to sentence anyone for capital punishment:

The person in question needs to be warned in front of two witnesses, within a rather short time frame that if he performs the prohibited action, he will be punished with punishment X. And there needs to be two witnesses that saw him perform that prohibited action.



Mostly, as a deterrent.

An entirely different approach from what happened with Moses.. Which is a good thing.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
What cosmic significance could a peasant gathering sticks to cook breakfast have?

The actions that we are prohibited from doing on the Sabbath are actions that are related (and related by proxy) to creation. They are derived from the building of the Tabernacle, which represents a microcosm of the universe.

By resting from these action on the Sabbath, one is mimicking the Creator and by extension, becoming closer to Him. Likewise, the rest from the creative exercises that represent those that were done to create the world, raise the existence to a point beyond its creation- that of the Divine Unity. This is what the first Sabbath was: a time of Divine Unity.

One who profanes the Sabbath, is both distancing himself from his Creator in a very essential way and is lowering the world into the mundane: his actions contradict and push away the Divine Unity.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
The actions that we are prohibited from doing on the Sabbath are actions that are related (and related by proxy) to creation. They are derived from the building of the Tabernacle, which represents a microcosm of the universe.

By resting from these action on the Sabbath, one is mimicking the Creator and by extension, becoming closer to Him. Likewise, the rest from the creative exercises that represent those that were done to create the world, raise the existence to a point beyond its creation- that of the Divine Unity. This is what the first Sabbath was: a time of Divine Unity.

One who profanes the Sabbath, is both distancing himself from his Creator in a very essential way and is lowering the world into the mundane: his actions contradict and push away the Divine Unity.

So does murdering him by one of the cruelest means ever devised fix it? So Yahweh is appeased by judicial murder and bloodshed?
 
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