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Know him before you insult him...

ashai

Active Member
The Truth said:
Because we have no more islamic country which apply the real islamic teaching as a whole and the same with the western "secular" countries nowdays.

Before long time a go in the time of prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" everyone was the same but after the islamic country started to expand so they had to make some rules to protect those minorities because they are citizens of that particular country which they entered to, so they must ensure their safty and rights while there was no right for Muslims under Christianity role as what happened in Spain for example. Moreover, islam rules are not somthing we stick at at the same rate as it was before but we can modify in it to fit the current situation if it didn't conflict with Quran or Sunnah. For example the dhimmitude concept wasn't invented by Allah (s.w.t.) or prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" but by Omar Bin Al-Khatab the second caliph of Muslims. The countries in general weren't the same as it's now and it's unfair to compare the rules at that time by our current rules and rights because now, we have separate countries with specific borders "except Israel of course which can be expand anytime :D ". Nowdays, you can't find this dhimmitude concept applied anywhere because people share the same country and the same right according to the country law but some muslims countries might apply culture rules and political one as well. I agree with you that many muslims countries must fix their own law and to give more rights for other faiths but that have nothing to do with Islam but with that particular country's law.


Peace ... :)

Ushta the truth

I am just suggesting that if Saudis want to be treated like Westerners in the West, they ought to treat Westerners in their county the same way. And I use Saudi Arabia as only a prototype. I understand that the concept cannot be applied wholesale for some countries are much better than others. However it can and should be applied on a country by country basis, reciprocity is fair play.:bounce

Ushta te
Ashai
 

ashai

Active Member
JillianMarie77 said:
But inciting them to kill people because someone published a cartoon they found offensive is okay?

Look, I know not ALL muslims are violent, just like not ALL christians set off bombs to murder people in womens clinics. That doesn't mean that these extremist bands of people don't exist and quite frankly, as far as murdering in the name of a religion or god - these days the market is cornered.

And its a shame. Truly. I am not anti-religion and I believe most religions have goodness at their core. The problem is, and its generally only found in the "true" religions, once you think the other person is "wrong" and "sinful" or whatever it becomes much easier to behave abominably toward them.


:clap :clap :clap :clap Frubals to you!
 
Argh! I just typed a whole response then lost it! Here I go again...

ashai said:
Ushta

And may I ask, if the treatment of religious minorities under islam is so fair enlightened and loving , why should you object to my suggesting that Muslims be treated the way they treat Copts, Zoroastrians, Jews, Bahais, Buddhists, Pagans and Atheists?

First of all, thanks for the Ushta. And Ushta to you.

When did I write that the treatment of religious minorities under Islam is fair, enlightened, and loving? I never wrote that because it's not true. That's why I often write that many "Islamic" countries are not Islamic at all, because they don't live by the Quran. If they actually lived by the Quran, the world would be much more peaceful.

Many cultures experience periods of persecuting those with whom they disagree. The problem with many Middle Eastern nations is that the obsolete culturalisms by which they live are so endemic, so unquestionably ingrained, that they don't even consider different ideas. For many oppressed people, that problem has translated into centuries of abuse. If I could lift those burdens from all of those unfortunate people, and if I could cleanse away all misdeeds, I would. All I can do as an individual is live by example, profess my own sense of ethics, try to help others understand what's wrong with Islam, and try to show the way to goodness.

ashai said:
As to respect, I try to respect everybody, I will confess though that I would respect Moderate Muslims a hell of a lot more if they actually did anything to get their religion back from the clutches of the fanatics...

Believe it or not, moderate Muslims are taking action. But CNN will only carry the yells of the angry jihadist, and not the quiet preaching at the local mosque, so unless one attends those services, they'll never know of the efforts. And I agree, many of those actions you reference are indefensible. I am not an apologetic; I do not defend actions that I know are morally wrong, whether it's religious persecution, bombs placed in backpacks, or bombs dropped from airplanes. I believe that people who blindly defend immoral acts of Islam, or any religion, or any belief system, do so out of pride. I think some people are simply too proud to admit fault, or guilt. And to me, that makes the problem continue. If one cannot admit there is a problem, then the problem can never be fixed. It seems that some people will defend a "wrong" action simply on principle, without even questioning whether the principle itself is wrong.

ashai said:
since I do not see institutionalized discrimination and terrorist fringes in my religion, I would expect that the first move is yours . The ball, so to speak, is in your court.:eek:

Yes, perhaps your religion is free from such ethical lapses, and for that I salute you. But such institutionalized discrimination and terrorism is not unique to Islam. Christians persecuted Jews in certain parts of the world for 1800 years, but Christianity has matured. Hopefully, Islam will mature as well (sooner rather than later), modernize its way of life and, in turn, how it treats others.

Islam is certainly experiencing a difficult time within itself and much of the world. Some people believe this period of instability is a period of growth within the religion. Some people believe that Islam is searching for its future identity, and its place in modern society. I'm not enough of an academic to make an opinion, but I know that my role is to educate. I have chosen a "mission" of guiding those to the right path, which simply comes down to a life of personal morality and respect for others.

In a strange way, I want to apologize for all of Islam's ethical lapses, because there are many - not because of the Quran, but in spite of the Quran. But tiny little me has not the place, nor authority to "apologize." All I can do is try to change the future for the better.
 

ashai

Active Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
Argh! I just typed a whole response then lost it! Here I go again...



First of all, thanks for the Ushta. And Ushta to you.

When did I write that the treatment of religious minorities under Islam is fair, enlightened, and loving? I never wrote that because it's not true. That's why I often write that many "Islamic" countries are not Islamic at all, because they don't live by the Quran. If they actually lived by the Quran, the world would be much more peaceful.

Many cultures experience periods of persecuting those with whom they disagree. The problem with many Middle Eastern nations is that the obsolete culturalisms by which they live are so endemic, so unquestionably ingrained, that they don't even consider different ideas. For many oppressed people, that problem has translated into centuries of abuse. If I could lift those burdens from all of those unfortunate people, and if I could cleanse away all misdeeds, I would. All I can do as an individual is live by example, profess my own sense of ethics, try to help others understand what's wrong with Islam, and try to show the way to goodness.



Believe it or not, moderate Muslims are taking action. But CNN will only carry the yells of the angry jihadist, and not the quiet preaching at the local mosque, so unless one attends those services, they'll never know of the efforts. And I agree, many of those actions you reference are indefensible. I am not an apologetic; I do not defend actions that I know are morally wrong, whether it's religious persecution, bombs placed in backpacks, or bombs dropped from airplanes. I believe that people who blindly defend immoral acts of Islam, or any religion, or any belief system, do so out of pride. I think some people are simply too proud to admit fault, or guilt. And to me, that makes the problem continue. If one cannot admit there is a problem, then the problem can never be fixed. It seems that some people will defend a "wrong" action simply on principle, without even questioning whether the principle itself is wrong.



Yes, perhaps your religion is free from such ethical lapses, and for that I salute you. But such institutionalized discrimination and terrorism is not unique to Islam. Christians persecuted Jews in certain parts of the world for 1800 years, but Christianity has matured. Hopefully, Islam will mature as well (sooner rather than later), modernize its way of life and, in turn, how it treats others.

Islam is certainly experiencing a difficult time within itself and much of the world. Some people believe this period of instability is a period of growth within the religion. Some people believe that Islam is searching for its future identity, and its place in modern society. I'm not enough of an academic to make an opinion, but I know that my role is to educate. I have chosen a "mission" of guiding those to the right path, which simply comes down to a life of personal morality and respect for others.

In a strange way, I want to apologize for all of Islam's ethical lapses, because there are many - not because of the Quran, but in spite of the Quran. But tiny little me has not the place, nor authority to "apologize." All I can do is try to change the future for the better.

Ushta and thanks:hug:

I want you to know that you are the first Muslim , ever, that I have run across, and belive you me there have been many, that acknowledges legitimate objections and criticism I understand fully that islam is now going through what Christianity went through 600 years ago. :bounce

My fear is that I do not know that Islam has the tools to reform itself in a positive way. I hope it does. By the way if i were to say that you are a convert will I be wrong?

Ushta Ashai

" The doctrine of Most Wise and Supreme Being is the love for mankind":dan:

Dinkart
 

Judgement Day

Active Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
Argh! I just typed a whole response then lost it! Here I go again...



First of all, thanks for the Ushta. And Ushta to you.

When did I write that the treatment of religious minorities under Islam is fair, enlightened, and loving? I never wrote that because it's not true. That's why I often write that many "Islamic" countries are not Islamic at all, because they don't live by the Quran. If they actually lived by the Quran, the world would be much more peaceful.

Many cultures experience periods of persecuting those with whom they disagree. The problem with many Middle Eastern nations is that the obsolete culturalisms by which they live are so endemic, so unquestionably ingrained, that they don't even consider different ideas. For many oppressed people, that problem has translated into centuries of abuse. If I could lift those burdens from all of those unfortunate people, and if I could cleanse away all misdeeds, I would. All I can do as an individual is live by example, profess my own sense of ethics, try to help others understand what's wrong with Islam, and try to show the way to goodness.



Believe it or not, moderate Muslims are taking action. But CNN will only carry the yells of the angry jihadist, and not the quiet preaching at the local mosque, so unless one attends those services, they'll never know of the efforts. And I agree, many of those actions you reference are indefensible. I am not an apologetic; I do not defend actions that I know are morally wrong, whether it's religious persecution, bombs placed in backpacks, or bombs dropped from airplanes. I believe that people who blindly defend immoral acts of Islam, or any religion, or any belief system, do so out of pride. I think some people are simply too proud to admit fault, or guilt. And to me, that makes the problem continue. If one cannot admit there is a problem, then the problem can never be fixed. It seems that some people will defend a "wrong" action simply on principle, without even questioning whether the principle itself is wrong.



Yes, perhaps your religion is free from such ethical lapses, and for that I salute you. But such institutionalized discrimination and terrorism is not unique to Islam. Christians persecuted Jews in certain parts of the world for 1800 years, but Christianity has matured. Hopefully, Islam will mature as well (sooner rather than later), modernize its way of life and, in turn, how it treats others.

Islam is certainly experiencing a difficult time within itself and much of the world. Some people believe this period of instability is a period of growth within the religion. Some people believe that Islam is searching for its future identity, and its place in modern society. I'm not enough of an academic to make an opinion, but I know that my role is to educate. I have chosen a "mission" of guiding those to the right path, which simply comes down to a life of personal morality and respect for others.

In a strange way, I want to apologize for all of Islam's ethical lapses, because there are many - not because of the Quran, but in spite of the Quran. But tiny little me has not the place, nor authority to "apologize." All I can do is try to change the future for the better.
I must say, Ibrahim..that I agree with all of what you said :highfive:. Very nicely put :clap.
 
ashai said:
Ushta and thanks:hug:

I want you to know that you are the first Muslim , ever, that I have run across, and belive you me there have been many, that acknowledges legitimate objections and criticism I understand fully that islam is now going through what Christianity went through 600 years ago. :bounce

Ushta Ashai (do I have that right?),

No, thank you for understanding :hug:. And there are more Muslims out there with similar feelings (see JD's note). In time, through honest discussion, we can all come to an understanding. But the honesty must be from within, as I hope I have faithfully displayed.

ashai said:
My fear is that I do not know that Islam has the tools to reform itself in a positive way. I hope it does. By the way if i were to say that you are a convert will I be wrong?
{/quote]

Yes, I agree.. The issue will be how Islam will exist in the future. What role will it take in the global society? Such speculation is left to the scholars today and historians tomorrow. All we (I) can do is try to deflect the momentum into a positive direction.

And you are correct, I am a convert (or "revert"). I was raised in the central US as a Catholic. Sorry, I'd write more now, but I'm on minimal rest and have to wake up in four hours.

IA-A
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
What a blessing for everyone! Its nice to see accord bloom where there were thorns.
It seems to me that after so many years of not so benevolent domination over the followers of Zarathustra it should be the Muslims who extend an olive branch. After all those who are victims of oppression cannot extend peace, they can only surrender or defy.

Regards,
Scott
 
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