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Can there be dharma without scriptures?

atanu

Member
Premium Member
...that dharma of nature is eternal and which means existence existed even before the vedic period.

Love & rgds

Surely. Sat-Chit-Ananda is without beginning. But I am not sure whether Chrsitians or others will understand this similarly.:)
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
<...>

4. Sanatana dharma is a term which is directly linked to Vaidika dharma and has no meaning outside it. So, de-linking Veda and Sruti from Sanatana dharma is inappropriate, IMO.

Ehem.
Dhammapada 1:5
5. Na hi verena ver&#257;ni sammant&#299;dha kud&#257;cana&#7747; 5
Averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.

Dhp_utf8
 

ametist

Active Member
There is one way to understand scripture as the printed words. they were not always printed though but they were always words just the same and even before they words they had still existed as a thought form of necessity that intended to become words. This reality too is like printed words, rather tangible, before it existed in physical sense, rules that made it possible were existing perfectly and inevitabily, as well intending to realize themselves as this physical world that we see before us like a printed word.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
There is one way to understand scripture as the printed words. they were not always printed though but they were always words just the same and even before they words they had still existed as a thought form of necessity that intended to become words. This reality too is like printed words, rather tangible, before it existed in physical sense, rules that made it possible were existing perfectly and inevitabily, as well intending to realize themselves as this physical world that we see before us like a printed word.

Well said.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Ehem.
Dhammapada 1:5
5. Na hi verena ver&#257;ni sammant&#299;dha kud&#257;cana&#7747; 5
Averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.

Dhp_utf8

Hello Crossfire:)

No denying that. However this verse only helps me to substantiate what I am saying.

As per this verse, love is Sanatana dharma. Yes. Hinduism also says the same. However, in Hinduism, Sanatana dharma conveys a more general idea, including the Veda, the general jnana of Atman-brahman, and also the specific aspects of Hindu dharma.

So Sanatana dharma may mean contextually different things to different people, depending on scripture or depending on personal opinion.

I am not saying that there is no Perennial way. Surely there is. But how does mAyA clouded mind discern it, without scriptural or without Guru's help?

Hope I am a bit more clear. And hope you are no more angry.:)
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Ya. In the first post the subject was 'dharma'. Then in the subsequent post, shown above, the subject became 'sanatana dharma'

Yes, it was to link the two words to understand that dhrama is eternal without that everyone claims dharma to belong to a particular time/space/group of people/etc.

On this matter, I follow Knachi Paramacharya's views given in his book "Hindu Dharma". I note a few points from that book.

1. "Dharma is that which protects. Everyone, irrespective of any other thing, will be attracted to dharma because of discontentment with all things material".
As we see above that dharma is eternal and to be in tune with the laws of nature one is always in a balance and so is always on safe grounds.


Dharma Alone Protects from the Chapter "Religion In General", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

2."Religion is the means of realizing dharma, artha, kama and moksa. These four are called purusarthas". And "The great understand the word dharma itself to mean religion."
Yes religion is a means and not an end in itself. It needs little deeper understanding of what it means by 'dharma itself is religion' it simply means that one should be religious about following the laws of nature that is eternal. If one stills the mind such individuals are alawys in tune and always following that dharma and that is their religion.

The Purpose of Religion from the Chapter "Religion In General", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

3. Hindu Religion is a religion without a name. Neither Hindu nor Sanatana words characterise this religion as in Vedas. It is Santana dharma as it is primeval. We do not know who founded this religion and when.

Words are just labels for understanding. IT is nameless and since it is a 'way of life' and so no words characterises it. This eternal law is without beginning has been realised by enlightened people and there revelations are the basis of the vedas. So vedas are only confirming that dharma or laws of nature is eternal. Since the enlightened people from whom the vedas originate too were nameless and so vedas cannot be said to have founders. Buddhism, Christinalty, Islam, Jainsim etc. all have founders as they went on to realise or be enlightened following a particular way which best suited them according to there background and foreground and revealed that path.


The Religion without a Name from the Chapter "The Vedic Religion: Introductory", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

4. There are certain distinctive features of the Sanatana dharma called Hindu dharma.

Yes, Hindu dharma too follows sanatan dharma as so they has to match and in fact every religion matches that eternal dharma.

Distinctive Features of Sanathan Dharama from the Chapter "The Vedic Religion: Introductory", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

5. Vedas are the root scriptures. Regarding the nature of the Vedas, the following is said:

All sounds originate in space. From them arose creation. According to science, the cosmos was produced from the vibrations in space. By virtue of their austerities the sages had the gift of seeing the mantras in space, the mantras that liberate men from this creation. The Vedas are apauruseya (not the work of any human author) and are the very breath of the Paramatman in his form as space. The sages saw them and made a gift of them to the world.

No one doubts that and so we as humans with minds have understood that creation is from that Big Bang and we have set up the CERN lab to experiment it and to a certain extent Big Bang is proved.
How can humans authorise anything? We are just part of nature and we been evolved are able to better understand nature and so we are trying to tune with IT and so being parts of nature we simply do our duty even the sages like tress who do not claim the fruits they give as gifts as it is the function of a tree similarly the function of sages is to only act as mediums to take [intuitively understand] from nature and automatically it grows out as fruits that others can share.


The Religion without a Name from the Chapter "The Vedic Religion: Introductory", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:
..........................

The whole point is that the Sanatana Dharma has lot many distinctive features that are surely different from other religions. And this is as per the dharma guru of Hindus. And if one studies genuine Hindu gurus the views will remain more or less same.

My dear friend do recall that Mohammud too was in the caves with Allah/God/Brahman/nature and he too heard what HE said and then came back to share the messages with the people.
Similarly Moses and other Christian prophets too spoke with God and shared the arrival of the messiah.


Sanatana dharma or Vaidika dharma or Hindu dharma has both General (sAmanya) and the Particular (vishesha) features.

Sanatan dharma includes all humans and cannot be claimed by any particular set because they coined the word.

Love & rgds
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
<...>

I am not saying that there is no Perennial way. Surely there is. But how does mAyA clouded mind discern it, without scriptural or without Guru's help?
Hope I am a bit more clear. And hope you are no more angry.:)
How difficult is it for a person to ask themselves if they are after Truth or if they are after Victory? A modicum of contemplation on this will reveal that trying to game the system for victory leads away from truth and into illusion--trying to project something that isn't there or wasn't there in the first place is the very definition of illusion-making.
 

Ravi500

Active Member
.
I am not saying that there is no Perennial way. Surely there is. But how does mAyA clouded mind discern it, without scriptural or without Guru's help?

True. I would state that the Guru's aid here is more important than that of the scriptures ,as it is the Guru and the enlightened master that gives true perspective on the scriptures as well.

There is a zen story of a scholar who visited a zen master, involving an overflowing tea cup.

Emptying Your Cup - Nebraska Zen Center

If we have already preconceived notions , opinions and speculations of your own,it will colour your perception of the scriptures as well, resulting in misinterpretation. And this is something that has happened and is still happening with tragic consequences.

It is the enlightened master, who is truly empty, who can provide a proper interpretation of the scriptures as well as the practical experience .
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Generally speaking, typically there were oral traditions that eventually developed into written ones, although in some societies they remain as oral. The advantage of oral traditions is that they're very flexible over time, thus being able to adjust to new situations often better than written traditions.

Just look at how some use the written creation accounts in Genesis as a set of blinders that keeps them from understanding our evolutionary process, whereas that would be less likely to happen in an oral tradition.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Sanatan dharma includes all humans and cannot be claimed by any particular set because they coined the word.

Love & rgds

If that is what you wanted to conclude, it is Okay. Although, as noted, the thread began with 'dharma' you later coined 'sanatana dharma'. It is your perspective. Not of Hindu dharma gurus.

In context of Hinduism and the Vedas, where the words 'dharma' and 'sanatana dharma' have their roots, these words encompass a more wider and yet a more particular scopes -- linked to the whole of Pusushartha -- a concept unique to Hinduism or Sanatana dharma or Arya Dharma or Vaidika dharma.

Dharma in the vedic context means two things. One, Dharma means &#8216;what supports or sustains&#8217; the universe. Second, Dharma also means moral and ethical duties, and as such it defines a way of life including philosophy, social order, science and history.
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend atanu,

If that is what you wanted to conclude,
wanted to discuss the word threadbare.
it is Okay.
Yes, if you speak from the heart and in Oneness.
as noted, the thread began with 'dharma' you later coined 'sanatana dharma'
Reason had explained earlier.
It is your perspective.
No, was not there when the word got coined.
However there are those who think alike: Sanatana Dharma -
What is Sanatana Dharma?
The difference between Sanatan Dharma and Hinduism
Not of Hindu dharma gurus.
The above are from Hindu gurus.
Rest appears to be placing the copyright on the word belong to a certain period/group because of coining the word itself like if Christians were to say that the word God is only meant for their usage.
Thank you for your educated contributions without which the depth of the discussion would have been missing.

Love & rgds
 

chinu

chinu
The Buddha was certainly aware of the writing of the Triptaka, so it is clear that he did not disapprove of scriptures.
I said, he didn't recommended.
There's a lot of difference between recommending and disapproving something, Luis.

Suppose a driving school says..
We don't disapprove that one cannot learn driving just with the help of books, But we recommend that learing practical in the school is the best becuase books are just wastage of time. :)
 

chinu

chinu
Pointing out "There is Moon" does not involve much understanding. But without the scripture pointing that out there is no way for the mind to intuit something beyond it.
I don't understand what are you trying to say.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I said, he didn't recommended.
There's a lot of difference between recommending and disapproving something, Luis.

Suppose a driving school says..
We don't disapprove that one cannot learn driving just with the help of books, But we recommend that learing practical in the school is the best becuase books are just wastage of time. :)

We are in agreement, actually. Except that I would write "waste" except of "wastage".
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Even if your caste is not allowed to study the scripture? :confused:
IMHO, yes, even then. Because there is no guarantee that those who will read them will understand them. ;)
If words are Dharma, than why not bad-words are dharma ?:)
:) Words detail dharma. Dharma is action. Do bad words help the society?
As far as i know, all the great masters of the history never readed any scripture.
Well, Jesus studied the law. Allah told Mohammad all that was required to be known.
Perhaps, at last he found that reading scripture is just wastage of time. :)
He created a new set to be studied.
.. innocent people start bowing their heads infront of scriptures like as scripture itself is God and they start bringing gifts and all that for scriptures :)
IMHO, that is a good beginning. :)
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend chinu,

what friend atanu is trying to say is this:
Pointing out "There is Moon" does not involve much understanding. But without the scripture pointing that out there is no way for the mind to intuit something beyond it.
Zen masters say that they only give a direction which is shown by 'pointing a finger towards the moon' so it means the master is simply pointing towards a direction and one has to observe the situation in totality but what happens that students who cannot 'intuit' they will catch the finger that is the will feel that the guru is important or they will watch the moon and take that enlightenment has to do with the moon when the reality is nothing to do with either the guru or the moon it is to inwards and through understanding transcend the thinking mind.

Here friend atanu too is pointing towards a direction that if the saying was not in any scripture then how would one know about it? Can one intuit without that being there?

We must realise that there were no humans no gurus but only 'nothingness' and slowly live evolved and through evolution humans appeared and this evolution will continue and that humans too through evolution will change to higher forms which will be something like 'gods' were gods who are knowledgeable in yoga and other aspects spiritually will live for a long time.
Meaning like the zen story it is not the guru or scriptures but the individual who only through past karma realises IT. It may appear as Intuition in this life but the background will be past karma where the individual has evolved to reach that state.
When we win a lottery ticket others say you are lucky but the reality is that its past karma where something remained due to you and you get it back in this life through winning a lottery.
Evolution is happening irrespective of gurus or scriptures and it is our karma that will help us get out of this cycle of birth and death by transcending our minds. Help is available even at RF, even through 'google' but how many are able to use it? Unless that realisation comes from within and that within too has a background through past karma.

Since there is no beginning or end one is always in the middle and so this post is not the last or the first but somewhere in between.
So more as we go along/evolve.

Love & rgds
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi on Scriptures
Reflections on Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi:<b>SCRIPTURES AND SCHOLARSHIP</b>

1.Q: "The Vedas give conflicting accounts of Cosmogony. Do not these impair the credibility of the Vedas?"

Bhagavan: "The essential aim of the Vedas is to teach us the nature of the imperishable Atman and show us that we are That. As you are satisfied with this aim and teaching you should treat the rest as Arthavada, auxiliary expositions, made for the ignorant who seek to trace the genesis of things."
Talk 30

2. Q "The Scriptures are useful to indicate the existence of the Higher Power (the Self), and the way to gain it.

Their essence is that much only. When that is assimilated the rest is useless. We read so much. Do we remember all we read? The essential soaks in the mind and the rest is forgotten. So it is with the Sastras."
Talk 62

From, The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi in His Own Words, Chapter 1

The scriptures serve to indicate the existence of the Higher Power or Self and to point the way to It. That is their essential purpose. Apart from that they are useless. However, they are voluminous, in order to be adapted to the level of development of every seeker.

As a man rises in the scale he finds the stages already attained to be only stepping stones to higher stages, until finally the goal is reached. When that happens, the goal alone remains and everything else, including the scriptures, become useless.


And eventually:

From Shri Ramana Maharshi&#8217;s &#8220;Who Am I?&#8221;

Collected Works of Sri Ramana Maharshi:Who am I?

Q23. Is it any use reading books for those who long for release?

&#8232;&#8232;All the texts say that in order to gain release one should render the mind quiescent; therefore their conclusive teaching is that the mind should be rendered quiescent; once this has been understood there is no need for endless reading. In order to quieten the mind one has only to enquire within oneself what one's Self is; how could this search be done in books? One should know one's Self with one's own eye of wisdom. The Self is within the five sheaths [five koshas: food, vital force, mind, intellect and bliss], but books are outside them. Since the Self has to be enquired into by discarding the five sheaths, it is futile to search for it in books. There will come a time when one will have to forget all that one has learned.
...............

My note: I believe that these sayings are not for intellectual asserting. The above teachings are to be realised. And without scripture pointing to realities higher than the body-mind, it would be difficult to even intuit that.
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend atanu,

Nowhere is my understanding any different to what you have mentioned.

Yes, have started the journey with 'self enquiry' rather that from outside with help of scriptures and or gurus and now only read scriptures to confirm personal realisation and understanding.

Thank you for the post as would not have known what Maharshi had said on the subjects.

Love & rgds
 
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