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Let's talk "family values."

dust1n

Zindīq
Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, 'This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.'

"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Luke 14:25-33

What are family values? What exactly do they assist in? Will they always be relevant? Other questions I can't think of but you might like to answer.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I tend to think of that passage as a perhaps clumsily worded reference to having no emotional attachments to worldly things. But I'm far from a scholar.

Although I think it is impossible to be certain, Jesus in many ways seems to have been a mystic, or at least an ascetic. And mystics often teach against attachments, while ascetics invariably do. The passage might have been for those who would follow his ways, rather than for everyone.

The problem are the contradictions. On the one hand, we have the passage you just cited. On the other hand, we have his attendance at a wedding -- which might seem to be some kind of an endorsement of family life, at least for some.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Family values" and related terms are generally euphemisms for movements that wish to discriminate against certain minority groups, usually LGBT.

It can mean anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-abortion, or anti-divorce, although often divorce is not focused on. It can also mean abstinence only eduction, or anti-feminism.

It doesn't seem to have much to do with Jesus, whose character was basically portrayed as an ascetic mystic doomsday believer who held belief to higher importance than families.
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, 'This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.'

"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Luke 14:25-33

What are family values? What exactly do they assist in? Will they always be relevant? Other questions I can't think of but you might like to answer.

I'm not sure how or why you are relating this passage to family values.

There is an important difference in the version you are quoting and the one (NAB) I am using.

In my version there is no word "hate" in vs. 26. It says, "If anyone comes to me without turning his back on..."

The way I read the rest of that chapter is as pointing to the things one would do prior to different types of large undertakings, specifically acknowledging the great cost of the undertaking -- and whether or not one would look ahead, including and beyond the cost, to see if one would think one could see it through to the end.

I think the point of that chapter is to, in effect, say, "Think it through. Make sure you're willing and able to bear the cost. It will be great, for those that choose to follow me." I think he was talking to the specific people that would follow him at that time.

To generally answer you questions about family values, my personal opinion is that family values would be personal values within a general mind-set of making decisions with the priority being the well-being of family -- for individual family members, as well as the family unit as a whole. To me that would likely vary from family to family, because what might be beneficial to well-being in one family might be detrimental in another.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I'm not sure how or why you are relating this passage to family values.

There is an important difference in the version you are quoting and the one (NAB) I am using.

In my version there is no word "hate" in vs. 26. It says, "If anyone comes to me without turning his back on..."

Used NIV. The KJV says:

25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
 

Amechania

Daimona of the Helpless
This is probably something Jesus never actually said, or a modification of something he may have said. "Pick up your cross and follow me' would mean much less to people before Calvary than it would afterward. Otherwise he seems to be saying that traditional values, like allegience to family, aquisition of wealth, even personal safety, ought to be sacrificed for the values of love of God and neighbor exemplified by Jesus himself. It's an admonition not to begin this undertaking without being certain of what you are doing and what the consequences could be, because if you can't follow through you will lose both your new set of values and your old.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Maybe I'm naive about the euphemisms or whatever, but family values to me always sort of meant family togetherness, love for family, nothing at all that was religion specific. Things like going out for dinner together. It really had no other connotations to me.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe I'm naive about the euphemisms or whatever, but family values to me always sort of meant family togetherness, love for family, nothing at all that was religion specific. Things like going out for dinner together. It really had no other connotations to me.
Regarding euphemisms, this is what I was referring to.

Examples in the United States include the "Family Research Council", "American Family Association", and "Focus on the Family". They are considered hate groups because their primary reason for existence is direct legal and social opposition to gay marriage, sex education, abortion, equal gender roles, etc in favor of religious heterosexual families. Most anti-LGBT and other groups of this nature call themselves something related to the family and talk about promoting "family values", rather than defining themselves as hate groups or opposition groups. It's extremely common language.

Family values means a lot of things to a lot of people but generally many of the people that actually use that specific phrase on a regular basis, are using it in this context.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Family values means a lot of things to a lot of people but generally many of the people that actually use that specific phrase on a regular basis, are using it in this context.

Yeah I'm naive. I don't listen to that stuff. Thanks for explaining to an old naive person.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, 'This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.'

"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Luke 14:25-33

What are family values? What exactly do they assist in? Will they always be relevant? Other questions I can't think of but you might like to answer.

Jesus is making a point here about our loyalties.

In a family, everyone is an individual and not all think or feel the same way about a certain matter. Lets say you wanted to pursue a particular career, it was something you were really interested in, but your family wanted you to do something completely different, what would you do? Would you follow the career path that your family wanted, or would you pursue the career that most interested you??

Your choice will either make your family happy, or displease them. And this is what Jesus was getting at.... are we going to live to please our family or live to please God?

The choice is ours. And we need to make the decision as to who is more important to please. God or family.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Jesus is making a point here about our loyalties.
The text:
"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
strikes me as being pretty unambiguous. If anyone else were to communicate such a thing to your child or spouse you would rightfully characterize that person as a dangerous and repugnant cult leader. No?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Not that the thread was suppose to focus on the passage (though, that would be entirely my fault for placing it there), but I interpret Jesus's statement as a condemnation of kin-selective altruism (not the same words would have been used, but such a virtue was definitely that of the Romans), so that a higher form of altruism could supersede (such in that strangers were elevated above the status of family.)

But that's neither here not there. I'm interested in what these "family values" are exactly, or what appropriate language should be adopted to actually discuss values centered around family life.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Used NIV. The KJV says:

25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

dust1n, as a Christian, I interpret the verses that you've posted very differently.

Verse 26 does not mean that we are to hate our family. That's asinine. Christ did ask us to place Him above everyone and everything else. It's the concept of placing spiritual matters before worldly matters. When we pick up our own cross, we acknolwedge our sinful nature and strive to be more like Christ.

Husbands are to honor their wives. Wives are to honor their husbands. Children are to be loved and provided for and Christians have been called to love everyone despite their flaws.

But, we can't place people and things of this world above God. The Christian is supposed to allow God to steer.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
... I interpret Jesus's statement as a condemnation of kin-selective altruism (not the same words would have been used, but such a virtue was definitely that of the Romans), so that a higher form of altruism could supersede (such in that strangers were elevated above the status of family.)
Can you suggest any justification for such an interpretation other than it rendering the verse more palatable? Isn't it just as likely - if not far ore likely - that what we are seeing is rhetorical excess on the part of Luke?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The text:
strikes me as being pretty unambiguous. If anyone else were to communicate such a thing to your child or spouse you would rightfully characterize that person as a dangerous and repugnant cult leader. No?

God’s law to Israel stated: “You must not hate your brother in your heart.” (Le 19:17)
Jesus’ counsel to love one’s enemies is in full harmony with the spirit of the Hebrew Scriptures. (Mt 5:44)

So its not logical to conclude that he was saying that we should have a dislike or loathing toward our own brothers and sisters.

We have to look for another meaning here.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Can you suggest any justification for such an interpretation other than it rendering the verse more palatable? Isn't it just as likely - if not far ore likely - that what we are seeing is rhetorical excess on the part of Luke?

Gen 29:30 Then Jacob had relations also with Rachel, and he loved Rachel more than Le′ah, and he served him for another seven years. 31 When Jehovah saw that Le′ah was unloved, he then enabled her to become pregnant, but Rachel was barren


in the original hebrew, the word which i've underlined is literally 'hated'

What are the various meanings of the word translated as 'hate' in the hebrew language?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Where else in the Greek scripture is the term translated (or intended) as anything other than 'hate'?

I dont know Greek.

I know what picking up my own cross means in spiritual terms and it doesn't translate to hatred towards my family, when I've been called to love.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
dust1n, as a Christian, I interpret the verses that you've posted very differently.

Verse 26 does not mean that we are to hate our family. That's asinine. Christ did ask us to place Him above everyone and everything else. It's the concept of placing spiritual matters before worldly matters. When we pick up our own cross, we acknolwedge our sinful nature and strive to be more like Christ.

Husbands are to honor their wives. Wives are to honor their husbands. Children are to be loved and provided for and Christians have been called to love everyone despite their flaws.

But, we can't place people and things of this world above God. The Christian is supposed to allow God to steer.

I don't really understand it, since Jesus says pretty much the opposite regarding family members. I mean, obviously, he really wants people to love him, but he is pretty explicit about relations in families:

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Matthew 10
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I don't really understand it, since Jesus says pretty much the opposite regarding family members. I mean, obviously, he really wants people to love him, but he is pretty explicit about relations in families:

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Matthew 10

Read all of Matthew 10, please.

And, the very next verse says this:

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Source
 
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