Should the Boys Scouts and Girl Scouts be allowed to exist

technomage said:

Egalitarianism is also a socio-cultural construct.

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Yeah, and?

It's pretty simple - if you don't agree with something, don't involve your kid in it. Nobody forces your kid to be a scout, and nobody else should be forced otherwise.

As far as separating boys and girls, they tend to do that around that age themselves anyway.

Kilgore Trout said:

It's pretty simple - if you don't agree with something, don't involve your kid in it. Nobody forces your kid to be a scout, and nobody else should be forced otherwise.

As far as separating boys and girls, they tend to do that around that age themselves anyway.

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I don't believe it is that simple. There is a misquided effort to require boys to be this and girls to be something else. Religions, Scouting, Television, and even education promote it. One of the Books I am reading is titled The Second Sex. Do I need to tell you which sex they are talking about? Is the title true or are both sexes truly equal.

Do girls like girly stuff because we tell them to or because they want to. I don't know. Can you say you do?

saint_frankenstein said:

Yeah, and?

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So socio-cultural constructs are not automatically to be rejected. One must examine the utility of the construct ... and frankly, the two constructs (sex-segregated and egalitarian scouting) serve different purposes. One is not necessarily inferior to the other.

bobhikes said:

I don't believe it is that simple. There is a misquided effort to require boys to be this and girls to be something else. Religions, Scouting, Television, and even education promote it. One of the Books I am reading is titled The Second Sex. Do I need to tell you which sex they are talking about? Is the title true or are both sexes truly equal.

Do girls like girly stuff because we tell them to or because they want to. I don't know. Can you say you do?

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I don't think banning scouts, or anything else, will overwrite millenia of cultural and biological evolution. And yes, I think boys tend to gravitate towards traditionally boyish things, and girls tend to gravitate towards traditionally girlish things. In my experience, this usually tends to be the case even when parents make a conscious effort to promote and provide a "gender neutral" environment.

technomage said:

So socio-cultural constructs are not automatically to be rejected. One must examine the utility of the construct ... and frankly, the two constructs (sex-segregated and egalitarian scouting) serve different purposes. One is not necessarily inferior to the other.

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I was responding to your claim that sex differences are real. Sure, there are biological differences between the sexes but society goes a lot farther than biology does in creating binary gender roles, ignoring that there are more differences within groups than between them. It's treated much the same as "race" is. Yes, there are genetic differences between ethic groups but science has shown us that are more differences within ethnic groups than between them.

So we can certainly examine socially-enforced gender roles as to their accuracy and usefulness. So far, they've been failing the examination as far as I can see.

saint_frankenstein said:

So we can certainly examine socially-enforced gender roles as to their accuracy and usefulness. So far, they've been failing the examination as far as I can see.

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By the same token, the assessment of "failing" is subjective.

Don't get me wrong, St. Frank ... there are a LOT of things I vehemently disagree with regarding the socio-cultural construct of gender. But just as gender in and of itself is not as simplistic as our culture makes it out to be, the applicability of socio-cultural constructs is also not as simple as we make it out to be.

The construct of gender has applicability and utility. I don't see the logic of discarding it without caution and due diligence for the effects.

PS: I know you're not talking about completely discarding it ... I'm not actually arguing against your statements, but against an extreme implementation of your statements.

technomage said:

By the same token, the assessment of "failing" is subjective.

Don't get me wrong, St. Frank ... there are a LOT of things I vehemently disagree with regarding the socio-cultural construct of gender. But just as gender in and of itself is not as simplistic as our culture makes it out to be, the applicability of socio-cultural constructs is also not as simple as we make it out to be.

The construct of gender has applicability and utility. I don't see the logic of discarding it without caution and due diligence for the effects.

PS: I know you're not talking about completely discarding it ... I'm not actually arguing against your statements, but against an extreme implementation of your statements.

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I'm not talking about getting rid of gender itself. I don't think that's even possible and I say that as a transsexual. What I'm talking about is socially-enforced binary gender roles, which I see as more harmful than helpful and I believe the evidence backs that up.

saint_frankenstein said:

I'm not talking about getting rid of gender itself. I don't think that's even possible and I say that as a transsexual. What I'm talking about is socially-enforced binary gender roles, which I see as more harmful than helpful and I believe the evidence backs that up.

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I know--as I said, I'm actually arguing against an extreme position that you're not taking.

Some degree of binarism is inevitable, at least as the culture stands now. We're not going to be able to convert the culture away from a gender-binary view within our lifetimes (and that's even assuming we had the ability and authority to change the the culture at all). But work can be done to move the culture towards a wider acknowledgement that not everyone fits into neat little pidgeonholes.

What I would like to see is a gender structure with broad categories, and equivalent acknowledgement that not everyone fits into those broad categories. My preference would be for an equal and accepting attitude towards ALL people, no matter where they fall into the categories, or if they do not fit into any of them.

technomage said:

I know--as I said, I'm actually arguing against an extreme position that you're not taking.

Some degree of binarism is inevitable, at least as the culture stands now. We're not going to be able to convert the culture away from a gender-binary view within our lifetimes (and that's even assuming we had the ability and authority to change the the culture at all). But work can be done to move the culture towards a wider acknowledgement that not everyone fits into neat little pidgeonholes.

What I would like to see is a gender structure with broad categories, and equivalent acknowledgement that not everyone fits into those broad categories. My preference would be for an equal and accepting attitude towards ALL people, no matter where they fall into the categories, or if they do not fit into any of them.

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Yes, I'd like to see the same thing. There needs to be more awareness that there's many different genders that exist along a fluid spectrum and many ways of expressing those genders. Other cultures have a similar understanding and have had social space for third gender people for centuries. Some recognize 3, 4, 5 or more genders.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I think it's a mistake to assume that there's no overlap between people in the Scouting organization and progressives. There are quite a few people in the organization who are advocating change from within... though AFAIK, the issue of LGBT Scouts and leaders is currently a bigger issue than that of opening up "Boy Scouts" to both genders.

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I make no such assumption.
I even considered that some progressives & feminists want girls to have
a separate experience, away from the deleterious effects of boys.

Kilgore Trout said:

I don't think banning scouts, or anything else, will overwrite millenia of cultural and biological evolution. And yes, I think boys tend to gravitate towards traditionally boyish things, and girls tend to gravitate towards traditionally girlish things. In my experience, this usually tends to be the case even when parents make a conscious effort to promote and provide a "gender neutral" environment.

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I don't want to ban scouts I would like to see them combined. The title is to get attention.

As to boys and girls 3 hypothesis

I like you and I want you to see my new baby. You come over the house and my newborn is in a white diaper with no hair. What do you expect is in the baby's room and why.
You had such a good connection with my baby I invite you back when the baby is eleven months old. The baby is still in a white diaper, not the same one I assure you. What clothes should I dress the baby in.
You are just so great with kids. I take you to see my sisters fraternal twins. A boy and girl, she has the boy dressed almost in a tuxedo and the girl a prom dress. They are 5. The boy comes running up to me and gives me a big hug I pick him up and kiss him on the cheek and say you are so pretty you must drive the other boys crazy. The girl comes running up and gives me a big hug. I pick her up throw her in the air and say your strong as an Ox, some day you'll be able to throw me. Did I do anything wrong?

Can you really know if Boys and Girls like the specific things they like because they want to or because we programed them to.

PS: if I just used the gender specific diapers there wouldn't have been an issue. Yes it really starts that young.

Of course they should be allowed to exist, regardless of whether or not others approve of their views, messages, practices, etc. If you don't like an organization, then don't participate. Simple enough.

Kilgore Trout said:

It's pretty simple - if you don't agree with something, don't involve your kid in it. Nobody forces your kid to be a scout, and nobody else should be forced otherwise.

As far as separating boys and girls, they tend to do that around that age themselves anyway.

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It's nit as if there was some immutable declaration from on high that forces the Boy Scouts of America to be discriminatory - plenty of other organizations in the Scouting movement have solved this problem. When deciding the future of the organization, the opinion of Scouts, parents, and leaders in the BSA carries just as much weight regardless of which side of the issue they're on.

I was a Girl Scout, much to people's shock who know me. Yes men and women are different, but that doesn't mean gender stereotypes are okay. However, by the same token a lot of people who push for more "equal" organizations get snippy when people choose things they don't agree with. For example, I love fast cars, lifting heavy, a good Scotch, video games, guns and other things involving fire or things that go boom. All of that tends to be fine with women's groups: but I regularly get nasty comments because I also enjoy baking, crafts, sewing, throwing parties, proper etiquette and have a love for corsets.

I wouldn't have had fun in Boy Scouts, mostly because boys teased me for being a tomboy, or 'trying to be a boy'. Girl Scouts was comfortable for me. I could go camping and build things, but I could also do embroidery and be adorable and sell cookies.

HexBomb said:

I was a Girl Scout, much to people's shock who know me. Yes men and women are different, but that doesn't mean gender stereotypes are okay. However, by the same token a lot of people who push for more "equal" organizations get snippy when people choose things they don't agree with. For example, I love fast cars, lifting heavy, a good Scotch, video games, guns and other things involving fire or things that go boom. All of that tends to be fine with women's groups: but I regularly get nasty comments because I also enjoy baking, crafts, sewing, throwing parties, proper etiquette and have a love for corsets.

I wouldn't have had fun in Boy Scouts, mostly because boys teased me for being a tomboy, or 'trying to be a boy'. Girl Scouts was comfortable for me. I could go camping and build things, but I could also do embroidery and be adorable and sell cookies.

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Sounds like my kind of girl. :yes:

MysticSang'ha said:

Sounds like my kind of girl. :yes:

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No! She's revolting!
Society has expectations, & tis our job to live up to them all....even the conflicting ones.

Revoltingest said:

Yes.
This answer is the result of answering another question.
Should we have the power to prevent their existence? No.

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Agreed.

I can't, for the life of me, understand what is wrong with having both male and females having separate types of clubs. It doesn't cause any kind of discrimination, unless you let it. There are times when I like hanging out with women and just women. Men and women are equal, but they are not the same in all things, and instead of pretending those differences don't exist, learn to accept those differences.

ChristineES said:

I can't, for the life of me, understand what is wrong with having both male and females having separate types of clubs. It doesn't cause any kind of discrimination, unless you let it. There are times when I like hanging out with women and just women. Men and women are equal, but they are not the same in all things, and instead of pretending those differences don't exist, learn to accept those differences.

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Im with you on it Christine. I don't see why there cannot be a degree of exclusivity in organisations where people can interact, achieve, and share based on their uniformity. Personally I think the scouts are fine as they are, but should provide a third option in their organisation allowing
more diversity. Why not create a third branch of Scouting?