• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Know him before you insult him...

sky87

Member
:sarcastic i haven't read many of the posts (only the first page) and im basically responding to some of those posts, but is there something wrong with what i said?
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
sky87 said:
:sarcastic i haven't read many of the posts (only the first page) and im basically responding to some of those posts, but is there something wrong with what i said?
I didn't think so.
 
sky87 said:
...it has me very upset to see that people are ruthlessly insulting our prophet (pbuh) and are unable to understand and respect our religion
You're absolutely right. It's okay to offend Muhammad, but the moment you suggest that Jesus was only a mere prophet and not the carnation of God, you are threatened with damnation.
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
You're absolutely right. It's okay to offend Muhammad, but the moment you suggest that Jesus was only a mere prophet and not the carnation of God, you are threatened with damnation.

I find it hysterical whenever people are upset when people insult Muhammad - or when they get upset over someone dissing Jesus. I find it hysterical because these two men are figureheads of violence. Let's go back through the last 2,000 years and find some violence that wasn't tied to Christianity or Islam. Well, you've got political violence, communism, and the cold war. *yawns* But Christians and Muslims have a very bloody history. Very bloody indeed.
 

ashai

Active Member
Darkdale said:
This is absurd.

It is naive to think that a vast majority of Muslims desire peace, simply because they are not participating in the violence. Their silence isn't because of a lack of media coverage, but a lack of real action. These Cartoons were NOT racist. They were a fair commentary on Islam, and all the violence that has followed has been a matter of these Muslims who simply cannot control themselves. :banghead3

I understand your desire to be understanding, but there is a difference between being understanding and naive. A cartoon should NEVER result in violence. Free Speech should never be fought with murder and hatred. I think people that are so offended by cartoons that they become violent are suffering from a kind of social sickness, a collective hysteria.
Ushta darkdale

Extremely well put:clap . I belong to a religion whic h is a minority religion in an Islamic country for 1400 years we have beeing discriminated and persecuted, they have even institutionalized second class staus for us and all religious minorities in Muslim countries. Just recently one of the members of the Iranian Islamic Republic's Revolutionary Council ( which is made up of moolahs or priests) said that non-Muslims were animals. Can we imagine what Muslims in the wesr would do if say Bush, or Mitterand would say the same thing?

I do not blame the fanatics or the Muslims living under Islamic rule for not speaking up, one group is too ignorant and the other too afraid, but in the West? Why do not they speak up and not a token statement here and there , but massively.

The whole issue with the cartoons, by the way, is hypocritical. Muhammad did not forbid his representation and the irreverent comment of a free press cannot be held as motivation for murder and mayhem.

I say we treat Muslims in the same way they treat their minorities, make them pay a poll or protection tax, and make them grovel while doing it the same way they traditionally did to their minorities, let them be designed officially second class citizens, unable to work for thye government or in national defense. Let their testimony in court count for less than a Non-Muslims testimony and let any one who converts out of Islam inherit the whole state of the deceased parent. (Being civilized I will njot apply thye death penalty for those converting to Islam, that they apply to those Muslims converting to another religion or becoming atheists)

These very things are applied in Muslim countries under Shahria( Islamic law) to Non-Muslims so let's treat them as they treat us and see how they like it.:D

Ushta te
Ashai
 
Darkdale said:
I find it hysterical because these two men are figureheads of violence. Let's go back through the last 2,000 years and find some violence that wasn't tied to Christianity or Islam. Well, you've got political violence, communism, and the cold war. *yawns* But Christians and Muslims have a very bloody history. Very bloody indeed.
That is undoubtedly true. But let's look at the last 2,000 years and find violence that wasn't tied to Christianity or Islam. Your reference to "political violence," although you try to minimize its contribution, is the largest contributor to violence of all.

Roman occupations of "barbarian" lands.
Barbarian invasions of Europe and North Africa.
Viking Raids.
Mongol invasions of Asia.
Chinese invasions of Mongolia.
Japanese invasions of China.
The American Civil War.
World War I.
World War II.
The Holocaust.
American invasions/actions against Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Libya, Iraq I.
Mexican-American War.
Colombian Drug Lords.
Soviet Invasions of Eastern Europe, Afghanistan.
The Falklands War.
And on, and on, and on, and on...

The point is, violence isn't necessarily based on or limited to any religious beliefs. It's a fact of human nature.
 
ashai said:
I say we treat Muslims in the same way they treat their minorities, make them pay a poll or protection tax, and make them grovel while doing it the same way they traditionally did to their minorities, let them be designed officially second class citizens, unable to work for thye government or in national defense. Let their testimony in court count for less than a Non-Muslims testimony and let any one who converts out of Islam inherit the whole state of the deceased parent. (Being civilized I will njot apply thye death penalty for those converting to Islam, that they apply to those Muslims converting to another religion or becoming atheists)
Interesting. So your solution is to mimic the behaviour that you despise?
 

Judgement Day

Active Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Muhammad is dead, and no more subject to being offended than a pet rock.
Is that the way the you want to get treated when you're dead? Dont you have any respect to your loved ones even though they have passed away? What if your father or mother died and people made fun of them, doesnt that break your heart? Muhammad may not be one of your loved ones, but he is our loved one, and we dont demand for anyone to respect Muhammad like we do, but at least dont insult him in front of us(if you want to insult Muhammad, insult him where no Muslims can hear you) and it should be alright. Although Muhammad (pbuh) is dead, we always say his name at least 9 times a day in our prayers. Thats how much we respect him.

JD
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Judgement Day said:
Is that the way the you want to get treated when you're dead? Dont you have any respect to your loved ones even though they have passed away?
That is a rather good point.
 

c0da

Active Member
That is undoubtedly true. But let's look at the last 2,000 years and find violence that wasn't tied to Christianity or Islam. Your reference to "political violence," although you try to minimize its contribution, is the largest contributor to violence of all.
Very well said, often people say how religion brings nothing but violence, and at the moment, Islam seems to be taking the brunt of the criticism, but let us not forget the fact that the closest the world has came to complete destruction was during the cold war, a clash of political ideologies, absolutely nothing to do with religion.
 

ashai

Active Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
Interesting. So your solution is to mimic the behaviour that you despise?

No my solution would be for the supposedly majority 'moderate ' Muslims, to take their religion back. But seeing that there is no signs that they ever will, I find it mos fair to treat them as they treat others.
 
ashai said:
No my solution would be for the supposedly majority 'moderate ' Muslims, to take their religion back. But seeing that there is no signs that they ever will, I find it mos fair to treat them as they treat others.

That's weak, reactionary, and full of vengeance. From all of your venemous posts you obviously have intense anger against Muslims in general, and your posts are offensive to us "moderates" just trying to live our lives in peace.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
That's weak, reactionary, and full of vengeance. From all of your venemous posts you obviously have intense anger against Muslims in general, and your posts are offensive to us "moderates" just trying to live our lives in peace.

Dear Ibrahim;

One should remember that Ashai is a Parsi, a follower of Zoroaster, and it has been many centuries that the Prasis have lived under an increasingly oppressive dhimmitude. A certain amount of venom is understandable. They won't get much sympathy from reactionary Muslims, so the moderates may have to do a little extra outreach effort and be more conciliatory. Zoroastrians should have far more tolerance under their protection as a "People of the Book" than they get under more conservative Muslim environments.

Regards,
Scott
 
Popeyesays said:
Dear Ibrahim;

One should remember that Ashai is a Parsi, a follower of Zoroaster, and it has been many centuries that the Prasis have lived under an increasingly oppressive dhimmitude. A certain amount of venom is understandable. They won't get much sympathy from reactionary Muslims, so the moderates may have to do a little extra outreach effort and be more conciliatory. Zoroastrians should have far more tolerance under their protection as a "People of the Book" than they get under more conservative Muslim environments.

Regards,
Scott

You're right, and I entirely understand. And I will add that understanding and respect should go both ways.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
You're right, and I entirely understand. And I will add that understanding and respect should go both ways.

One would always hope so. Human behavior though is quite unfocused - since it is not "human behavior" but some six billion "human behaviors" one must consider.

The first couple generations of Baha`i society was quite substantially disheartened Parsees. The reason such large populations of Zoroastrians exist in India was because of persecution in the Islamic world.

One has to extend an olive branch sometime, or the fester will never go away.

Regards,
Scott
 

ashai

Active Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
You're right, and I entirely understand. And I will add that understanding and respect should go both ways.

Ushta

And may I ask, if the treatment of religious minorities under islam is so fair enlightened and loving , why should you object to my suggesting that Muslims be treated the way they treat Copts, Zoroastrians, Jews, Bahais, Buddhists, Pagans and Atheists?

We could even do it on a country by country basis:) Or are you afraid of getting the same enlightened treatment,your fellow Muslims dish out?:confused:

As to respect, I try to respect everybody, I will confess though that I would respect Moderate Muslims a hell of a lot more if they actually did anything to get their religion back from the clutches of the fanatics, sadly I have not seen anywhere as much effort put into that as I see them putting on white washing and defending practices that are clearly indefensible.:help:

Respect , in my book, has to be earned and since I do not see institutionalized discrimination and terrorist fringes in my religion, I would expect that the first move is yours . The ball, so to speak, is in your court.:eek:

Ushta te
Ashai
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
ashai said:
Ushta

And may I ask, if the treatment of religious minorities under islam is so fair enlightened and loving , why should you object to my suggesting that Muslims be treated the way they treat Copts, Zoroastrians, Jews, Bahais, Buddhists, Pagans and Atheists?

Because we have no more islamic country which apply the real islamic teaching as a whole and the same with the western "secular" countries nowdays.

Before long time a go in the time of prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" everyone was the same but after the islamic country started to expand so they had to make some rules to protect those minorities because they are citizens of that particular country which they entered to, so they must ensure their safty and rights while there was no right for Muslims under Christianity role as what happened in Spain for example. Moreover, islam rules are not somthing we stick at at the same rate as it was before but we can modify in it to fit the current situation if it didn't conflict with Quran or Sunnah. For example the dhimmitude concept wasn't invented by Allah (s.w.t.) or prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" but by Omar Bin Al-Khatab the second caliph of Muslims. The countries in general weren't the same as it's now and it's unfair to compare the rules at that time by our current rules and rights because now, we have separate countries with specific borders "except Israel of course which can be expand anytime :D ". Nowdays, you can't find this dhimmitude concept applied anywhere because people share the same country and the same right according to the country law but some muslims countries might apply culture rules and political one as well. I agree with you that many muslims countries must fix their own law and to give more rights for other faiths but that have nothing to do with Islam but with that particular country's law.


Peace ... :)
 
DoctorDeen said:
The ongoing Danish cartoon controversy was ignited simply because those people do not know who the Prophet really was and think that Islam is a violent religion that incites its followers to kill anyone who is simply non-Muslim which is completely not true.It was therefore obligatory on me and every muslim in the world to spread the real image of Islam. Doing so, I put this website between your hands and you are free to decide what Islam really is. Please forward this message to all muslims and non-muslims you know .


YOURS TRULY,
DOCTOR DEEN

But inciting them to kill people because someone published a cartoon they found offensive is okay?

Look, I know not ALL muslims are violent, just like not ALL christians set off bombs to murder people in womens clinics. That doesn't mean that these extremist bands of people don't exist and quite frankly, as far as murdering in the name of a religion or god - these days the market is cornered.

And its a shame. Truly. I am not anti-religion and I believe most religions have goodness at their core. The problem is, and its generally only found in the "true" religions, once you think the other person is "wrong" and "sinful" or whatever it becomes much easier to behave abominably toward them.
 
Top